Poll: Was Shannan Gilbert Murdered?

[Peter Brendt]

(BBM and Red Font BM: ITA, there is no public data to support SG having been in the brush for 18 months...none what-so-ever.)

There is also no data supporting she wasn't out there. But there is at least one eye witness supporting, she went in there that morning. She wasn't seen after that morning again till her remains were found. The ME didn't report any details about the remains had been disturbed in any way, also not by a transport. And red makes the desperation in your argumentation only more visible! I love it!)

First of all, we don't know if she was taken away by Pak, Brewer or some do-gooder or taken in by a neighbor. We also don't know if she died in May, June, or even December 2010.

True, she could have joined a circus which was just camping in that marsh. Or aliens abducted her, experimented on her till December, then quick skeletized her and beamed her down to where she was found. But thinking about it, it all doesn't sound too credible. Of course, we could spin now another wild theory about JB or CPH have abducted her, brought her into one of their basements (with the neighbors awake and alert by the police still noticing anything). That has this extreme funny picture of CPH, limping along on his prosthetic with this big wriggling and struggling burlap sack on his back with SG in it and the neighbor goes "Good Morning, what have you there?" and the doctor would "Oh nothing, *advertiser censored*, nothing" without said neighbor spitting the beans latest after the GB4 were found. Yeah, right. I mean, lets face it, it's simply impossible. So maybe we spin a fairy tail about secret WWIII bunkers under that marsh where she survived for all that time?

If there is a serial killer and she somehow was killed by the same dude, then he could have held her for any amount of time. He had six and a half months to dump her remains before Blue found the first four.

And then, why on Earth, didn't he add her to his little trophy garden? Aside of it, LISK returns only for the summer to the East Coast. That places him, earliest, two weeks after SG's disappearance in the area. And of course, he had no time to keep her 6 1/2 months. He leaves late September.

Whoever killed her had a total of 18 months to dump her 100 ft off the side of the road.

Nobody had the opportunity to kill her or to get her out of that marsh without being seen, that day. If she would have been still alive some hours later, she would have found out of the marsh at some point, the thing is not that big. So we can dismiss any ideas about, she was fetched the next night or the day after. Means, if someone would have tried to get her to kill or snatch her, he had about twenty minutes time without knowing her exact position.] Twenty minutes, not 18 months. I love that red, we should use it more!

Maybe her killer had her remains in a container or bag and decided to make it look as if she was just another victim of a serial killer. For all we know, she was kept in a large freezer and dumped months later. Thus allowing her remains to decompose in one place.

You would first have to find a way, how your Mister x got to her, was able to snatch her and then you can discuss containers. You skipped the impossible part and just started with her in a container. Well, lets look at that then. It would be possible to hold all the bones in place, if you would regularly fill all the air space in that container with foam. For example a poly-urethane. But that would leave so much residue, it would be almost impossible to miss. But if you don't, you rattle the bones latest, when you move her to the final site. Which also wouldn't in the ground show the typical chemical indicators of something decomposing on it. So, you propose here once more a technically impossible explanation.

ETA: We cannot assume she died on May 1st, 2nd, 3rd...whatever...we have no idea when she actually died.

For all we know, she entered the marsh that morning. If she would have come out on her own, she would have popped up at her family or Cruz. Nothing of that happened. And JB, the drifter, CPH and any of your alleged conspiracy members had not the time or the possibility to get her or her body out of the marsh unnoticed. So, we actually can be pretty sure, she died that day. Because everything else is impossible. Unless you go with the aliens.

 

[Just K]

Sarcasm doesn't give authenticity to an argument and Red is the most easily visible highlighter. I have spent months reading everyone's opinion. None of us know when she died and that is the one fact that I am certain of...

ETA: No one has stated that they saw her enter the brush. Coletti only pointed in the direction of the reeds along Anchor Way. Early on, he surmised that she made it to a dock and fell in the actual water.

 

[Sillybilly]

So MP left before LE arrived and was interviewed later? That makes him still a witness. And Coletti's statement places him near Coletti's house just minutes after Coletti saw SG hiding behind the boat and then running off. So, either, he was searching after that still for SG or he left Oak Beach. If he left Oak Beach, he had no time to find her and kill her. Which excludes MP.

<snip>

No, it's all in the earlier threads if you wish to review. By MP's own admission, he was driving around looking for her, called her cell a couple of times, and left OB around 6:00 am (iirc).

one of numerous articles re interview with MP:

http://www.newsday.com/news/breaking/gilbert-vanishing-reaches-one-year-mark-1.2849214

... A dark SUV then slowly approached, he said. Pak said he was driving around looking for Gilbert, and told Coletti they had been at a party and that the young woman who had gotten upset and left.

Coletti said he'd seen her and called police.

Pak said he resumed his search and sent Gilbert a text message. She didn't respond.

Pak looked for Gilbert along Ocean Parkway but said he gave up at 6 a.m., driving back to New York City.

By then, police had arrived in Oak Beach, but Gilbert was nowhere to be found ..a

 

[Sillybilly]

Okay, but you asked for it. So here comes my list of questions and I aks you to deliver for each of them an at least possible explanation, including all known facts. You can post your list as well and I will do my best to do the same (tomorrow probably, since I will go out next time).

<snip for brevity>

Didn't "ask for it" ... just stating a fact. Not making another list, just responding to yours:

1. Why would any perp be bozo enough to interfere during a 911 call when the victim is claiming they are trying to kill her, and then become an immediate suspect in her disappearance?

2. You are assuming &#8220;they&#8221; ran into the marsh. Maybe she was dragged into a vehicle and taken out of OB and killed elsewhere, then subsequently dumped in the marsh. Depending on the manner of death, there is not necessarily a need to &#8220;clean himself from all traces&#8221; of anything.

3. You are insisting she went into the marsh at that time when there are no witnesses who have stated this. Obviously the pants came off after she was at Coletti&#8217;s, but not necessarily in a desperate run through the marsh. I am one of the believers in her belongings being dumped at a later date. And, who said anything about rape? It has never crossed my mind in this particular case, so IMO her pants being found do not relate to a rape.

4. While skeletal remains were found, they weren&#8217;t necessarily moved to the marsh after skeletonization. A reasonably intact body could have been placed there after LE did their initial search of the area, when a perp thought the heat was off and LE was treating it as just another missing prostitute. I don&#8217;t have any &#8220;conspiracy theory&#8221; wrt the ME and LE &#8230; I just think there are a couple of locals who know what happened to SG and have tried to do their own cover-up.

5. Wouldn&#8217;t surprise me in the least that she genuinely didn&#8217;t know his name (perhaps just a &#8220;Hi, I&#8217;m Joe", or Fred, Dave, etc). IIRC, it was said that she identified at least one individual in the 911 call. As for not knowing she was in Oak Beach, near the ocean, in a gated community &#8230; she thought Jones Beach (we agree that is an understandable error), pretty much anywhere on LI is near the ocean so that is explainable, and I&#8217;m sure OB isn&#8217;t the only gated community on LI, and even if it was, SG probably would not have known that in order to aid identification of her location.

6. You call it paranoia, I call it reasonable fear when you are genuinely terrified someone is trying to kill you. Again you state as fact that she ran off into the marsh (unsubstantiated and there are no witnesses to support that assertion).

7. Your claim re SG&#8217;s fear of water and that she ran into a marsh filled with water leads to your subsequent claim that drugs or bipolar are instrumental in her running into said marsh &#8230; when there is no proof or eye witness account that places her running into the marsh. To our knowledge SG was not familiar with the OB area, so even IF she ran into the marsh, she had no way of knowing that it was swampy, not because she was high or having a bipolar moment.

8. Three points of a triangle do not constitute not being able to &#8220;hold a straight direction anymore&#8221;. I&#8217;m just not convinced that SG didn&#8217;t encounter either MP or CPH as she ran south from Coletti&#8217;s. Using your own theory (as per Mari Gilbert) that SG was afraid of water, then IF she ran into the marsh of her own volition, she possibly made a quick desperate decision to veer off on her southband path to avoid the ocean .. again, not because she was high or experiencing a bipolar episode ... just based on her own phobia.

 

[Sillybilly]

There is also no data supporting she wasn't out there. But there is at least one eye witness supporting, she went in there that morning. She wasn't seen after that morning again till her remains were found. The ME didn't report any details about the remains had been disturbed in any way, also not by a transport.

Ahh, so you don't have any data to support your theory either.

Please provide a source re the "one eye witness supporting she went in there that morning".

And then, why on Earth, didn't he add her to his little trophy garden? Aside of it, LISK returns only for the summer to the East Coast. That places him, earliest, two weeks after SG's disappearance in the area. And of course, he had no time to keep her 6 1/2 months. He leaves late September.

Nobody knows how the LISK's mind works or when he comes and goes, so IF SG was a LISK victim, then advancing his supposed arrival by 2 weeks can only be included or eliminated when all known facts are available. WRT your conclusion that he leaves late September, who's to say he kept her for 1 week, 3 months ... or 6 1/2 months?

Nobody had the opportunity to kill her or to get her out of that marsh without being seen, that day. If she would have been still alive some hours later, she would have found out of the marsh at some point, the thing is not that big. So we can dismiss any ideas about, she was fetched the next night or the day after. Means, if someone would have tried to get her to kill or snatch her, he had about twenty minutes time without knowing her exact position.

Who's to say MP didn't find her in that 20+ minute timeframe and take her with him out of OB? (Actually, we need to check back in the earlier threads re the cell phone records ... iirc, it was a lot more than 20 mins between Coletti's call and LE arrival).

So, you propose here once more a technically impossible explanation.

Ever heard of Richard Kuklinski aka The Ice Man? The ME found ice crystals in the heart of one of his victims ... because he kept them frozen until he disposed of them.

For all we know, she entered the marsh that morning. If she would have come out on her own, she would have popped up at her family or Cruz. Nothing of that happened. And JB, the drifter, CPH and any of your alleged conspiracy members had not the time or the possibility to get her or her body out of the marsh unnoticed. So, we actually can be pretty sure, she died that day. Because everything else is impossible. Unless you go with the aliens.

For all we know, she didn't enter the marsh that morning. What is impossible about knocking someone unconscious, turfing them in the car or trunk, and meandering on out of OB?

 

[BKS]

After months of analyzing facts and circumstances surrounding Shannan's disappearance on WS, 82% that have taken the poll believe that she was probably murdered. That speaks volumes. The fact that the ME refuses to release her body makes me wonder not if, but when, they will determine this was homicide!

 

[Peter Brendt]

Ahh, so you don't have any data to support your theory either.

Please provide a source re the "one eye witness supporting she went in there that morning".

Coletti saw her running to the weeds. 48 Hours, and if you google it, you will find at least a dozen articles stating it.

Nobody knows how the LISK's mind works or when he comes and goes, so IF SG was a LISK victim, then advancing his supposed arrival by 2 weeks can only be included or eliminated when all known facts are available. WRT your conclusion that he leaves late September, who's to say he kept her for 1 week, 3 months ... or 6 1/2 months?

He killed only in summer. If he would be there all the year, the murders would spread out over all the year. And probably there would be more bodies on the East Coast.

Who's to say MP didn't find her in that 20+ minute timeframe and take her with him out of OB? (Actually, we need to check back in the earlier threads re the cell phone records ... iirc, it was a lot more than 20 mins between Coletti's call and LE arrival).

Only possible, if he would have left his SUV at Coletti's and followed her on foot. Otherwise he would have lost the track and needed too much time to find her again in the first place. Since Coletti saw MP drive off with his SUV, we know MP didn't follow her immediately. So, here your theory needs one of the usual time warps of all the "foul play" variants.

Ever heard of Richard Kuklinski aka The Ice Man? The ME found ice crystals in the heart of one of his victims ... because he kept them frozen until he disposed of them.

Before he could freeze them, he had to get them first. And freezing a body changes flesh and bones and can be relative easily detected, even in skeletal remains. So if you don't claim, the ME is in on the conspiracy, he would have seen and reported it.

For all we know, she didn't enter the marsh that morning. What is impossible about knocking someone unconscious, turfing them in the car or trunk, and meandering on out of OB?

For all we know, Coletti saw her running into the weeds ... which means, everyone following her would have to go into there. Then to find her. It's hard to hit someone over the head, you don't find first. So for all we know, you forget, Coletti saw her and your theory needs, just to work, ignorance of at least one witness. Aside from the technical problems.

 

[Peter Brendt]

<snip for brevity>

Didn't "ask for it" ... just stating a fact. Not making another list, just responding to yours:

1. Why would any perp be bozo enough to interfere during a 911 call when the victim is claiming they are trying to kill her, and then become an immediate suspect in her disappearance?

But then be bozo enough to kill her anyway and become the immediate suspect in her disappearance ... you see, there is a contradiction in his argument.

2. You are assuming “they” ran into the marsh. Maybe she was dragged into a vehicle and taken out of OB and killed elsewhere, then subsequently dumped in the marsh. Depending on the manner of death, there is not necessarily a need to “clean himself from all traces” of anything.

Since Coletti saw her running into the weeds, no option.

3. You are insisting she went into the marsh at that time when there are no witnesses who have stated this.

Coletti

Obviously the pants came off after she was at Coletti’s, but not necessarily in a desperate run through the marsh. I am one of the believers in her belongings being dumped at a later date. And, who said anything about rape? It has never crossed my mind in this particular case, so IMO her pants being found do not relate to a rape.

So, why would any unsub undress her and leave her belongings behind where they could be found (including her ID), if not sexual assault?

4. While skeletal remains were found, they weren’t necessarily moved to the marsh after skeletonization. A reasonably intact body could have been placed there after LE did their initial search of the area, when a perp thought the heat was off and LE was treating it as just another missing prostitute. I don’t have any “conspiracy theory” wrt the ME and LE … I just think there are a couple of locals who know what happened to SG and have tried to do their own cover-up.

Lets think through this. Either, your theoretical perp would have to keep her alive and kill her later. That would give him an intact body to drop some month later. But in this case, the unsub would need the possibility, to keep her somewhere. He couldn't just keep her all the time in the bedroom closet. Especially not a married suspect. That's all aside of the problems to catch her first, which are discussed in other points.
Or he killed her and froze her. Then changes in flesh and bone would occur and at least the bone changes would be noticeable by the ME. So, either the ME is in on the conspiracy or there weren't such changes.
Either way, it seems very far fetched at least.

5. Wouldn’t surprise me in the least that she genuinely didn’t know his name (perhaps just a “Hi, I’m Joe", or Fred, Dave, etc). IIRC, it was said that she identified at least one individual in the 911 call. As for not knowing she was in Oak Beach, near the ocean, in a gated community … she thought Jones Beach (we agree that is an understandable error), pretty much anywhere on LI is near the ocean so that is explainable, and I’m sure OB isn’t the only gated community on LI, and even if it was, SG probably would not have known that in order to aid identification of her location.

She had to know, she was in a gated community. They had passed the gate in Pak's SUV. Aside of that, it's a very simple and common safety measure for prostitutes at least to know where they are. And SG allegedly has been there, when JB told MP on the phone where to go (see 48 Hours). So, some time before, she had at least some knowledge about where this place was, but not anymore at the 9/11 call.

6. You call it paranoia, I call it reasonable fear when you are genuinely terrified someone is trying to kill you. Again you state as fact that she ran off into the marsh (unsubstantiated and there are no witnesses to support that assertion).

Witness Coletti
And about the paranoia: That is when someone believes, someone else wants to kill him or in this case her, while there is nobody. That's different from being in fear because there is actually someone. But it feels the same. So the actual point is, was there someone or not. Of course, there was someone. Those two wannabe serial killers sitting at the couch and waiting, till she finished her 911 call. And then still were bozos enough to let her first escape from the house and then (after overcoming the impossibility to find her in the short time window) killed her anyway, knowing, they would be the first suspects. Not credible! Aside of that, remember the part with MP's little mental check? Aside of the validity of this check, it indicates at least, someone though at this time already, SG had got something, she shouldn't have taken.

7. Your claim re SG’s fear of water and that she ran into a marsh filled with water leads to your subsequent claim that drugs or bipolar are instrumental in her running into said marsh … when there is no proof or eye witness account that places her running into the marsh. To our knowledge SG was not familiar with the OB area, so even IF she ran into the marsh, she had no way of knowing that it was swampy, not because she was high or having a bipolar moment.

Again, witness Coletti. Who also described her as confused. Her behavior before she went in the reeds (instead of going in the house, she hid behind a boat and then run off into the weeds). The reporter, who quotes CPH (I know, this is second hand) telling, she looked confused and sick. The 20 year old, I forgot his name, who described her as confused and that he was thinking, she was under drugs. So the statement, there are no witnesses is just wrong. Even if you take out CPH for obvious reasons, there are still two more left. Add to that Pak and Brewer and the story of the mental test and it all paints exactly one picture.
And well, the reeds could have been a sign there is some wet area?

8. Three points of a triangle do not constitute not being able to “hold a straight direction anymore”. I’m just not convinced that SG didn’t encounter either MP or CPH as she ran south from Coletti’s. Using your own theory (as per Mari Gilbert) that SG was afraid of water, then IF she ran into the marsh of her own volition, she possibly made a quick desperate decision to veer off on her southband path to avoid the ocean .. again, not because she was high or experiencing a bipolar episode ... just based on her own phobia.

Well, three points of a triangle surely don't consist a straight line. Geometry is pretty iron on that. So fact is, it isn't one straight direction.
And about convictions based on beliefs, beliefs are outside of reasonable argumentation and therefore can live well with ignoring the facts. You have to ignore Coletti who saw her running to the weeds, you have to ignore the narrow time frame, you have to ignore the duration of the 911 call as much as the fact, that it happened in the first place, you have to ignore, that she made it obviously out of the house (with two alleged killers waiting in the house to kill her right after she told the police who they are, yeah, right). The list goes endless. You have ignore all that to make this "foul play" theory making looking like something real. And that is, what I don't buy.
However, thanks, that you at least tried to give explanations. Even the explanations were based on ignoring witnesses and possibilities, it was at least a try and that was more than we ever got from the "foul play" faction. So please, don't misunderstand me, I am really grateful for the attempt.

 

[Peter Brendt]

Sarcasm doesn't give authenticity to an argument and Red is the most easily visible highlighter. I have spent months reading everyone's opinion. None of us know when she died and that is the one fact that I am certain of...

ETA: No one has stated that they saw her enter the brush. Coletti only pointed in the direction of the reeds along Anchor Way. Early on, he surmised that she made it to a dock and fell in the actual water.

Well, obviously, she didn't fall in the water and drowned there. So, where could she have gone from those reeds ... oh wait, isn't there a marsh right next to them ...

And yes, sarcasm doesn't give authenticity to an argument ... nor does red color. So take my apologies, I was a little sarcastic when seeing a theory that far off any technical possibility, yelled out in red and bold print.

 

[Sillybilly]

Coletti saw her running to the weeds. 48 Hours, and if you google it, you will find at least a dozen articles stating it.

Not arguing that GC said it ... just different reeds, and SG was seen after GC saw her.

He killed only in summer. If he would be there all the year, the murders would spread out over all the year. And probably there would be more bodies on the East Coast.

I simply don't know of any other way to help you understand that IF SG was a LISK victim, then 2 weeks would be added to the beginning of his spree. It's no biggy in advancing the timeframe by 2 weeks. You are assuming that LISK is definitely not a local, and that SG is not a LISK victim, and that all LISK victims have been found.


Only possible, if he would have left his SUV at Coletti's and followed her on foot. Otherwise he would have lost the track and needed too much time to find her again in the first place. Since Coletti saw MP drive off with his SUV, we know MP didn't follow her immediately. So, here your theory needs one of the usual time warps of all the "foul play" variants.

Of course it's possible. SG was not in the marsh after running from Coletti's. She was knocking on someone else's door and therefore she was not in the marsh for MP to have to ditch the SUV and follow her on foot. Her jacket was reportedly found down Anchor Way and it didn't get there on its own.


Before he could freeze them, he had to get them first. And freezing a body changes flesh and bones and can be relative easily detected, even in skeletal remains. So if you don't claim, the ME is in on the conspiracy, he would have seen and reported it.

The ME could ONLY report it IF ice crystals had remained in a body. In the Kuklinski case, the ONLY way the ME was able to determine the body had been frozen was due to sheer luck ... there were a few ice crystals remaining in the heart. Otherwise, had a bit more time elapsed, the ME would have had no way of knowing.

For all we know, Coletti saw her running into the weeds ... which means, everyone following her would have to go into there. Then to find her. It's hard to hit someone over the head, you don't find first. So for all we know, you forget, Coletti saw her and your theory needs, just to work, ignorance of at least one witness. Aside from the technical problems.

Again, GC saw her running into the reeds by his house and was not the last person to have seen her. At some point she had to have emerged from those reeds to have been knocking on someone else's door, and presumably was on Anchor Way for her jacket to have been found there.

Answers in purple

 

[LINative13]

Ever read the story about his first victim that made fun of him at a bar?

 

[Peter Brendt]

Not arguing that GC said it ... just different reeds, and SG was seen after GC saw her.

I simply don't know of any other way to help you understand that IF SG was a LISK victim, then 2 weeks would be added to the beginning of his spree. It's no biggy in advancing the timeframe by 2 weeks. You are assuming that LISK is definitely not a local, and that SG is not a LISK victim, and that all LISK victims have been found.

I simply don't know of any other way to help you understand, that SG can't be a LISK victim at all. And since I added already two weeks up front, your two weeks bring us to four or almost a month. Almost a months IS a biggie in the timeline.
I assume NOT all LISK victims have been found. Where are the ones from 2011 and now 2012? I asked that question several times, so please don't assume, what I assume, just ask, what I assume if you can't find it in my posts.
I don't just assume, LISK isn't a local of Oak Beach, I am pretty sure of it. There are, by categories of body disposal, only limited possibilities. Some SKs keep them at their house or on their property. But this type doesn't keep them just a mile away on the road side. Some SKs dismember their victims and put them in the regular trash or sometimes illegal trash deposits. Well, we can exclude that type for LISK. And some SKs build clustered dump sites, miles and miles away from their homes, places to revisit. The shortest disntance, I found for that type was about 17 miles (for Dean Corll), the longest was 120 miles (for Ted Bundy). Thus, I think, it's a safe claim to say, LISK is not an Oak Beach local because it's just one mile from the dump site.
Supporting this claim is the timeline of the GB4 murders. Locals of Oak Beach would have heard at least about SG, even may not her name. But communities like this talk. LISK on the other hand obviously didn't know a thing. He thought, his coasts are still clear and so he parked two more victims at Gilgo. If he would have only known about SG, he wouldn't have done that. We can assume, if he would have killed her, he would have remembered that detail.

Of course it's possible. SG was not in the marsh after running from Coletti's. She was knocking on someone else's door and therefore she was not in the marsh for MP to have to ditch the SUV and follow her on foot. Her jacket was reportedly found down Anchor Way and it didn't get there on its own.

Which places her then at Anchor Way. So she made it down there again without being knocked over the head. And from there, what could she reach, who could have seen someone knocking her over her head, how did the hypothetical attacker know, police wouldn't come the next minute (he knew, she had called 911, he sat there for about twenty minutes and waited for what exactly ...). You have to admit, knowing the police would come, and without the knowledge, it would take that long, with people waking up, that must have been some really crazy son of b. to pull that through. A medium to high organized SK, like LISK, would have seen to cover his tracks and tell the police a good story about SG took drugs was out of control and so on. But for that, he would have needed her found alive to support his story. Or in other words, LISK wouldn't be stupid enough to pull such a thing after the 911 call. And since LISK is anyway no Oak Beach local ... forget about!

The ME could ONLY report it IF ice crystals had remained in a body. In the Kuklinski case, the ONLY way the ME was able to determine the body had been frozen was due to sheer luck ... there were a few ice crystals remaining in the heart. Otherwise, had a bit more time elapsed, the ME would have had no way of knowing.

Wrong! In the Kublinsky case it was obvious because he found ice crystals. Other ways to check out whether remains were frozen would be for example to look for changes of the extra-cellular bone matrix. Or, one would found in the soil under the victim different bacterias than one would expect, if a fresh body would have been parked there (signs of anaerobe decomposition). Also Dr. Baden would have had some fun with that, you know, the damage done to the local microbiology if you park a frozen 130 pound block of flesh and bones on it. The diatoms would have surely shown a little generation break. This is a wide field and maybe you can look it up, that would spare us endless detail posts. For the start, look for the studies, the Centre for Forensics at the University of West-Australia did (Stokes, Forbes and Tibbett), Marc S Micozzi, M.D., PhD. and his work, already published in 1986 (sic!) in the Journal of Forensic Science, Vol 31, No. 3. And of course, always helpful, the Work of Dr. Baden.

Again, GC saw her running into the reeds by his house and was not the last person to have seen her. At some point she had to have emerged from those reeds to have been knocking on someone else's door, and presumably was on Anchor Way for her jacket to have been found there.

Again, you have convinced me with the timeline, but that makes her way through Oak Beach even more confused with that doubling back and thus supports even more the theory, she was running confused and plan-less. Which lets us end up at Anchor Way then. Where obviously a witness was a awake and only God knows how many potential witnesses. And of course, how do you surprise your victim in the middle of Anchor Way after that victim is, as you say, already aware someone is after her? How do you prevent her from screaming if you can't blitz-attack her? So fine by me, as far as it goes with Anchor Way and her confused almost without any orientation running around. But to knock someone over the head without the victim screaming, you have to surprise a victim that allegedly was aware of danger in the middle of the way, i.e. without cover or a position to ambush and without the element of surprise. So ... once more NO WAY!

 

[Peter Brendt]

Ever read the story about his first victim that made fun of him at a bar?

Can't remember right now, I haven't touched that one since at least five years. Was it a good one?

 

[BKS]

<snip>

No, it's all in the earlier threads if you wish to review. By MP's own admission, he was driving around looking for her, called her cell a couple of times, and left OB around 6:00 am (iirc).

one of numerous articles re interview with MP:

http://www.newsday.com/news/breaking/gilbert-vanishing-reaches-one-year-mark-1.2849214

IF Pak left the area at 6am and Coletti was waiting by the gate, why didn't Coletti see Pak leave? Did Pak indeed find Shannan, and with help from someone, pull her into the vehicle and hide in a closed garage until the coast was clear. I just don't get how Pak left without anyone seeing him go.

 

[Peter Brendt]

IF Pak left the area at 6am and Coletti was waiting by the gate, why didn't Coletti see Pak leave? Did Pak indeed find Shannan, and with help from someone, pull her into the vehicle and hide in a closed garage until the coast was clear. I just don't get how Pak left without anyone seeing him go.

Maybe Pak lied or got the time a little wrong? He must have left earlier. Like 5:50 earlier? Just before Coletti came up to the gate?

 

[Just K]

Biggest fact of them all:

No one has admitted to seeing MP leaving the gated community. He says he left around 6:00 AM...No one has confirmed that he went through the front gate...even GC, who says he went down to the gate to let the police in. GC has not stated that anyone was seen near the gate between the time that SG knocked on his door and when the first responder appeared.

MP either never left the community, went out the SW entrance, or left before GC came back out and went down to the gate. GC has also never been quoted as to what he did just after MP drove up, SG ran off, and before he went down to the gate. We know that LE took at least another 20 minutes to arrive after GC's call. Twenty minutes is more than enough time for MP to make a right hand turn onto Anchor Way, see SG, get her into the SUV, turn around and leave the gated community.

One more thing, no one other than GC has publicly stated that they saw MP's SUV searching for SG after she ran off in the direction of Anchor Way.

 

[Peter Brendt]

Biggest fact of them all:

No one has admitted to seeing MP leaving the gated community. He says he left around 6:00 AM...No one has confirmed that he went through the front gate...even GC, who says he went down to the gate to let the police in. GC has not stated that anyone was seen near the gate between the time that SG knocked on his door and when the first responder appeared.

MP either never left the community, went out the SW entrance, or left before GC came back out and went down to the gate. GC has also never been quoted as to what he did just after MP drove up, SG ran off, and before he went down to the gate. We know that LE took at least another 20 minutes to arrive after GC's call. Twenty minutes is more than enough time for MP to make a right hand turn onto Anchor Way, see SG, get her into the SUV, turn around and leave the gated community.

One more thing, no one other than GC has publicly stated that they saw MP's SUV searching for SG after she ran off in the direction of Anchor Way.

And Justin C, who claimed to have seen SG didn't see MP or any SUV. <modsnip> Especially, since MP couldn't know, she would go down to Anchor Way.

 

[BKS]

Biggest fact of them all:

No one has admitted to seeing MP leaving the gated community. He says he left around 6:00 AM...No one has confirmed that he went through the front gate...even GC, who says he went down to the gate to let the police in. GC has not stated that anyone was seen near the gate between the time that SG knocked on his door and when the first responder appeared.

MP either never left the community, went out the SW entrance, or left before GC came back out and went down to the gate. GC has also never been quoted as to what he did just after MP drove up, SG ran off, and before he went down to the gate. We know that LE took at least another 20 minutes to arrive after GC's call. Twenty minutes is more than enough time for MP to make a right hand turn onto Anchor Way, see SG, get her into the SUV, turn around and leave the gated community.

One more thing, no one other than GC has publicly stated that they saw MP's SUV
searching for SG after she ran off in the direction of Anchor Way.

That is what I find compelling. Pak and Shannan are no where to be found when police arrive. He says he left, but no one saw him leave. The last eyewitness to see Pak says he was following Shannan. Then Shannan and Pak are gone. Shannan is murdered, Pak says I left. Where did Pak go to hide? The only obvious place is a closed garage, where the vehicle would be completely hidden.

 

[Just K]

I still think he may have known of another way out...perhaps he had been there before and one of the residents told him of the back exit.

 

[mcme]

I still think he may have known of another way out...perhaps he had been there before and one of the residents told him of the back exit.

There is no "back exit" from the OIBA. It's the gate, a boat or a helicopter. If your car needs to leave with you, it's the gate.