Pope's speech ignites worldwide controversy/ Islam insulted

[southcitymom]

I heard a comment from a caller on a radio show yesterday. He said he pulled up the Koran on the internet and searched for the word "love". He found only five references and they all referred to the love of Allah....

This is misinformation of the highest order. First of all, it irritates me that anyone who has not at least read the Koran, much less studied it, would think googling one word could tell you the first thing about the Koran. Secondly, the translation to English will always miss the mark, the nuance, to some extent.

I have studied the Koran. It is a font of ancient wisdom. It deserves our respect and attention.

But I will play the game.

Love (or some variation, ie Loving) mentioned 86 times. Here's one of the mentions. It's more meaningful to read a full verse (if not book, chapter and text):

The Cow - [2.177] It is not righteousness that you turn your faces towards the East and the West, but righteousness is this that one should believe in Allah and the last day and the angels and the Book and the prophets, and give away wealth out of love for Him to the near of kin and the orphans and the needy and the wayfarer and the beggars and for (the emancipation of) the captives, and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate; and the performers of their promise when they make a promise, and the patient in distress and affliction and in time of conflicts-- these are they who are {rue (to themselves) and these are they who guard (against evil).

Forgive (or some variation) is mentioned 128 times

Peace (or some variation) - is mentioned 49 times. Here's a full verse:

The Cow - 2.224] And make not Allah because of your swearing (by Him) an obstacle to your doing good and guarding (against evil) and making peace between men, and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.


I could go on and on and pull out all sorts of verses from the Koran that speak to its highest intents. And then someone else could come along and pull out verses that indicate its intent to whip its followers into a murderous frenzy and lead them into war (mentioned 15 times in the Koran, by the way).

The Koran is not the problem, just as the Bible is not the problem. As always, human beings continue to be the problem because we interpret things in the manner most likely to support our view of reality.

God bless the Pope, but I do not believe that pouring gasoline on a fire is the way to bring people to truth.

 

[southcitymom]

Likewise for christians. For an initial start - read the pope's speech - that was actually pretty much supposed to be his point - as clumsily as it was made in that one section.

Forceful conversion of Indians in the new world, the crusades, those books backed with human skin, bombing abortion clinics, the inquisition, and let's not miss Serbia.

What's your list for muslims? And you really think it's a zero sum game - the side with even a little fewer atrocities wins? In that case, we might want to both convert to Buddism. Of course, that only applies if we also both believe that all followers of a religion are responsible for any interpretation of that religion, anything done in the name of that religion, even if it is by some extremist, terrorist nutjob.

Excellent post!

 

[BarnGoddess]

This is misinformation of the highest order. First of all, it irritates me that anyone who has not at least read the Koran, much less studied it, would think googling one word could tell you the first thing about the Koran. Secondly, the translation to English will always miss the mark, the nuance, to some extent.

I have studied the Koran. It is a font of ancient wisdom. It deserves our respect and attention.

But I will play the game.

Love (or some variation, ie Loving) mentioned 86 times. Here's one of the mentions. It's more meaningful to read a full verse (if not book, chapter and text):

The Cow - [2.177] It is not righteousness that you turn your faces towards the East and the West, but righteousness is this that one should believe in Allah and the last day and the angels and the Book and the prophets, and give away wealth out of love for Him to the near of kin and the orphans and the needy and the wayfarer and the beggars and for (the emancipation of) the captives, and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate; and the performers of their promise when they make a promise, and the patient in distress and affliction and in time of conflicts-- these are they who are {rue (to themselves) and these are they who guard (against evil).

Forgive (or some variation) is mentioned 128 times

Peace (or some variation) - is mentioned 49 times. Here's a full verse:

The Cow - 2.224] And make not Allah because of your swearing (by Him) an obstacle to your doing good and guarding (against evil) and making peace between men, and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.


I could go on and on and pull out all sorts of verses from the Koran that speak to its highest intents. And then someone else could come along and pull out verses that indicate its ability to whip its followers into a murderous frenzy and lead them into war (mentioned 15 times in the Koran, by the way).

The Koran is not the problem, just as the Bible is not the problem. As always, human beings continue to be the problem because we interpret things in the manner most likely to support our view of reality.

God bless the Pope, but I do not believe that pouring gasoline on a fire is the way to bring people to truth.

I haven't done it yet. Just related what I heard. I know anyone can interpret the Bible a million ways. I assume one could also interpret the Koran the same way. BTW, the Cow 2.224 relates to the love of Allah, not love of fellow man. My point.........

 

[southcitymom]

I haven't done it yet. Just related what I heard. I know anyone can interpret the Bible a million ways. I assume one could also interpret the Koran the same way. BTW, the Cow 2.224 relates to the love of Allah, not love of fellow man. My point.........

I'm not understanding your interpretation of Cow 2.224. That verse implores followers, out of love for Allah, to care for their fellow man.

In both Christianity and Islam, we are asked to love our fellows as we do a higher being. IE - to love and serve Allah, means to love and serve your neighbor and to love and serve God/Christ, means to love and serve your fellow man.

 

[Details]

Two individuals? How many individuals kidnapped those Israeli soldiers? One, two? They did it in the name of Allah!!!!!!!!! The moderate Muslims are NOT speaking out in MASS protesting the extremists. The president of Iran has called for our destruction, the denial of the Holocaust, etc. The sprirtual leader, the Iman, has not repudiated his comments. Is that not what you would consider a MAJOR Islamic leader(s)? Hamas controls Palestne. Not extremist? Who speaks out? Al Quaida calling for YOU to convert or else.

I'm not ready to convert. Either willingly or with a knife to my throat. If you want to convert, then do so. I have no tolerance of anyone telling me how to worship.

FYI: I also abhor the Christian extremists who murder abortion doctors and bomb clinics for exactly the same reason. When they are caught, I would willingly administer the death penalty myself.

Iran? No - they're extremists! Remember - we were pretty near at war with them? We used to support Iraq, just because they were against Iran. They aren't moderates nor major. The biggest Muslim country is Indionesia, IIRC - let's find their leader saying such things. Al Queda is, by definition, extremists and terrorists - and among the people they expect to convert 'or else' is most muslims who don't believe the precise brand of islam as they have invented.

Right - I too abhor the Christian extremists - but I don't consider them to indicate the beliefs of all Christians - I think the same should be done for Muslims.

Now - Hamas and Hezbollah - OK, they are groups composed of Muslims (mostly - I'm not sure at all they have a religious membership requirement) - but both of htem are not about spreading Islam. Hamas is Palestinians who say they want the land they used to have back and want the Israelis to leave. Hezbollah is pretty well the same thing, but for a different country that lost land to the Israelis in the war - they want the land back. Neither of them attack America, neither of them are pushing to make the whole world Islamic - and neither of them want anything to do with Al Queda, and have said so explicitly and publicly when Al Queda was offering support and money and weapons. Hezbollah kidnapped the soldiers, wanting to use them to bargain to get some of their own captured soldiers back. Oh, and BTW - Hezbollah lives side by side, peacefully with the christian areas in their country. And Hamas is a democratically elected government (as a reaction to corruption in the previous Palestinian governments), who has gained a ton of their popularity the same way as Hezbollah - by functioning as charity organizations providing food and medicine to people who otherwise have no way to get it.

 

[Details]

I haven't done it yet. Just related what I heard.

You need to be careful about that - Snopes is full of BS that you can hear online - not to mention the very valid point that translations and context mean a lot more than a count of any particular word. I wonder in which books you would find "hate" the most - and how many of those instances would be where the book is suggesting avoiding hate.

These rumors always travel around, and no one checks them out before passing them on. The Koran (like the Bible) is filled with noble sentiments and modern, enlightened sentiments - and other things not so good - but the religion is either good or bad in it's actions based on what it's practitioners do.

 

[BarnGoddess]

Iran? No - they're extremists! Remember - we were pretty near at war with them? We used to support Iraq, just because they were against Iran. They aren't moderates nor major. The biggest Muslim country is Indionesia, IIRC - let's find their leader saying such things. Al Queda is, by definition, extremists and terrorists - and among the people they expect to convert 'or else' is most muslims who don't believe the precise brand of islam as they have invented.

Right - I too abhor the Christian extremists - but I don't consider them to indicate the beliefs of all Christians - I think the same should be done for Muslims.

Now - Hamas and Hezbollah - OK, they are groups composed of Muslims (mostly - I'm not sure at all they have a religious membership requirement) - but both of htem are not about spreading Islam. Hamas is Palestinians who say they want the land they used to have back and want the Israelis to leave. Hezbollah is pretty well the same thing, but for a different country that lost land to the Israelis in the war - they want the land back. Neither of them attack America, neither of them are pushing to make the whole world Islamic - and neither of them want anything to do with Al Queda, and have said so explicitly and publicly when Al Queda was offering support and money and weapons. Hezbollah kidnapped the soldiers, wanting to use them to bargain to get some of their own captured soldiers back. Oh, and BTW - Hezbollah lives side by side, peacefully with the christian areas in their country. And Hamas is a democratically elected government (as a reaction to corruption in the previous Palestinian governments), who has gained a ton of their popularity the same way as Hezbollah - by functioning as charity organizations providing food and medicine to people who otherwise have no way to get it.

I respectfully disagree. Hezbolah is a relatively new splinter group. Never had part of Israel or any history of an occupation of any area. They are a Lebonese Muslim group, commited to terror. I would disagree that the Lebanese Christians live harmoniously with them. I believe they live in fear of them, and are distrustful of any Muslims. The first Israeli soldier was kidnapped in Gaza by Hamas, not Hezbollah. Hezbollah doesn't need Al Quaida, they have Syria and Iran for monetary and weapon support.

I take it you are implying that Arafat was corrupt? Quite an observation and admission.

I will tell you that I have a contempt for men raised in the Islamic tradition. This is a personal observation and experience. I was a controller for a major car dealer in Miami. A salesman threatened my cashier and spit on me. He was Iranian. He called my cashier and me dirt and as women, not worthy to tell him what he could and couldn't do. He was insisting we do something both illegal and unethical. I told him to go eat a pig. (You know they don't eat pork.) He vowed we'd be kidnapped and taken to his country and slaughtered and fed to the dogs. Need I say, he was fired, and never worked for another car dealer in Miami. The dealership owner was Jewish. We were terrifed and the owner was outraged.

Say what you will, but I would be willing to bet that the average Muslim in the Middle Ease is semi-illiterate and takes as "gospel" what his Iman tells him.

BTW, there has been some major terrorist bombings in Indonesia. Remember the hotel and resort bombings that have killed Europeans and Australians.

 

[BarnGoddess]

http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran/koran-idx?type=simple&q1=love+of+mankind&size=First+100

I typed "love of others". "love of mankind", and received an error stating that:

Your simple query produced no results.

If you just type in "love", you get this:

http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran/koran-idx?type=simple&q1=love+&size=First+100

Almost all refer to the of Allah and what he does and does not love.

It's more than interpretation.

 

[reb]

too bad we got rid of saddam... he was secular and keeping the extremist shia in check. who's gonna do that now...?? a few years back, bush and his unquestioning suporters had to get all up in arms about "protecting the poor, downtrodden iraqi people from this evil dictatror" and was ever-so-sincerely concerned about "the freedom of the iraqi people.. defending them in their struggle", etc. etc... uhh, yeah, right!! since when do these suddenly-sympathetic americans give a damn about the iraqi people? they never seemed to care before.. LOL! all of a sudden americans were all worried about the iraqi's civil rights (or,, the mainstream media led us to believe this!)... just because they wanted to rally behind the bush boys- to watch them take out their old enemy. so they did,, and... OOPS! well... we got what we wanted.. and NOW look what we are having to deal with.

 

[southcitymom]

I will tell you that I have a contempt for men raised in the Islamic tradition. This is a personal observation and experience. I was a controller for a major car dealer in Miami. A salesman threatened my cashier and spit on me. He was Iranian. He called my cashier and me dirt and as women, not worthy to tell him what he could and couldn't do. He was insisting we do something both illegal and unethical. I told him to go eat a pig. (You know they don't eat pork.) He vowed we'd be kidnapped and taken to his country and slaughtered and fed to the dogs. Need I say, he was fired, and never worked for another car dealer in Miami. The dealership owner was Jewish. We were terrifed and the owner was outraged.

Say what you will, but I would be willing to bet that the average Muslim in the Middle Ease is semi-illiterate and takes as "gospel" what his Iman tells him.

Our personal experiences definitely flavor our opinion regarding Islamic men.

My husband's godfather is an Islamic psychiatrist who was raised in that tradition. He now lives in New England. He has been married for 30+ years to an Irish Catholic woman. He is a wonderful man - kind, loving, funny.

I have had the opportunity to meet many of his male and female family members from the Middle East. My experiences with them have been, without exception, positive.

I recently attended the wedding of his oldest daughter. The service was a blend of Islam and Christianity and it was fantastic and very moving.

There are good and bad eggs everywhere. My opinion is that the good ones (from any trdaition) don't get enough press!

 

[ember]

This just makes me angry! :furious: They can behead our citizens, torture our soldiers, treat women like dirt, but the Pope says a true statement about their "religion" and something that happened eons ago and they get thier panties all in a big wad. Islam...a peaceful religion my a$$!

I just hope they settle their butts down.....my mom leaves for a 2 week tour to Italy tomorrow to visit Rome, Venice, and quite a few other spots. Now not only do I have to worry about the plane ride over and back, but I'll be chomping at the bit if they keep acting up knowing my mom is over there. I suggested that she postpone here trip....well, not my mom! She said they want us to stop living and to be afraid and that she will not give them that satisfaction. She also flies planes upside down (aerobatics) :crazy: . She is quite the character! It sucks being the "sandwich" generation....when you have to worry about your children and your parents!

I hesitate to say this, but these extremists cannot be reasonable people. I really think it's time to withdrawl our troops and just level the whole area. It sure did shut Japan up. :silenced:
Just my :twocents:

 

[windovervocalcords]

I believe the Pope is a good person and promotes peace.

That's why I am disappointed,(and some what taken aback), in the Pope for making these remarks at such a time when relations with the Muslim religion is so fragile.
Because of this we have to go back to windovervocalcords question of "What do you think the Pope was trying to accomlish?" He had to know his statement was not going to be taken well,and may even promote violence. So what was he, during these very touchy times,trying to accomplish?

Hi Capps,

It occured to me perhaps the Pope wanted to challenge Muslims to step forward and condemn violence and demonstrate non-violent leadership.

That's the most positive interpretation I can come up with.

1. Islam has been around for approximately 1400 years. Established on the west coast of Arabia 900 years before European settlement in America, and spreading rapidly throughout Southwest Asia and North Africa soon thereafter, it was not designed as an anti-U.S. movement!

The basic teachings or requirements of Islam are not difficult to grasp. They constitute the "Five Pillars of Islam": (1) profession that there is no God but God ("Allah," in Arabic), and his Prophet (the last of the prophets, the "seal of the prophets") is Muhammad; (2) daily prayer; (3) fasting during the month of Ramadan; (4) charity; and (5) the pilgrimage to Mecca. Whatever you may think of this package, it's not terribly threatening to the non-Muslim.

2. Islam's teachings are contained in a fairly compact book, the Qur'an, which Muslims believe was dictated to the Prophet Muhammad by the archangel Gabriel. They believe of it precisely what Jews and Christians believe of their scriptures: that is, it's the Word of God. This book, like the Bible, demands belief in monotheism; refers to Adam, Noah, Abraham, Jesus, etc. (far more space is given to Mary, mother of Jesus, in the Qur'an than in the New Testament); has a substantial legalistic component reminiscent of the Old Testament Book of Leviticus, and poetic content as beautifully uplifting as the Book of Psalms. For religious and secular scholars alike, it is absolutely clear that Islam stems from the Judeo-Christian tradition. Indeed, we should think in terms of the "Judeo-Christian-Islamic tradition."

The point is---for better or worse---Muslims have a whole lot more in common with the dominant religious trends in the U.S. than do, say, Buddhists or Hindus.)

3. Muslims are about 20% of the world's population; Christians, about 30%. (The U.S. Muslim population is estimated between 5 and 8 million; U.S. Jews between 5 and 6 million). The global Jewish population is statistically quite small, so one can say the Judeo-Christian-Islamic population is roughly half the world's total. The consequences of a protracted religious war, pitting Christians and Jews against Muslims, are highly unpleasant to consider.

4. The Qur'an depicts Jews and Christians as "People of the Book," meaning that they have their own scriptures bestowed upon them by God (Allah is simply the Arabic world for God, related to the Hebrew Elohim; we should see it as analogous to the German word Gott, the French Dieu, or the Spanish Dios. It's not the personal name of a deity within a pantheon, like Thor, Aphrodite or Siva.)

Muslim scripture counsels respect for these communities, and indeed, in the history of Islam, within Islamic societies Jews and Christians have fared FAR better than non-Christians in Christendom. Muslims ruled all or part of Spain from around 800 to the late 15th century, when Columbus' great patrons, King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella "drove the Moors (Muslims) out of Spain," forced everybody to embrace Catholic Christianity (or be killed), and promoted the exquisite Christian tortures of the Inquisition. Under Muslim rule, Christian and Jewish communities generally flourished from Spain to Iraq. On the other hand, until recent times, Christian intolerance prevailed throughout Europe.

5. The Qu'ran does NOT call upon Muslims to KILL all non-Muslims. It calls for the destruction of "infidels," meaning principally Arabs who, during the time of Muhammad, practiced idolatry and polytheism. Again: this is a seventh-century book, produced in a specific historical context! It, and the Muslim religion, should be studied and understood objectively, dispassionately. Islam emerged very quickly, and within decades united under its banner-the banner of monotheism---the various tribes of Arabia. Its violent rejection of idolatry, however offensive to the modern, secular, humanist mind, is hardly unique. It can be compared to the ferocious suppression in Christian Europe of paganism (often associated with witchcraft).

And for perspective, while the Qu'ran does call for the extermination of "infidels," the Old Testament is replete with its own exhortations to genocide. According to the Biblical narrative (of dubious historicity, but believed by hundreds of millions), the Hebrews under Joshua's leadership, invading Canaan from Egypt, killed twelve thousand "men and women together" in the town of Ai-because God wanted them to (Joshua 8:25). The Hebrews put all the people of Hazor to the sword (they "wiped them all out; they did not leave one living soul." Judges 11:14). The poetics of hatred are as conspicuous in the Bible as in the Qu'ran. A personal favorite of mine, from Psalm 137, refers to the Babylonians: "A blessing on him who takes and dashes your babies against the rock!" Such references are characteristic of Judeo-Christian-Islamic literature, and are best examined in historical perspective.
http://soundvision.com/info/peace/primer.asp

 

[southcitymom]

Thanks for your post, windover.

You are absolutely correct in pointing out that the Judeo/Christian/Islamic traditions are closely related from an historical (and a spiritual) basis and, in many instances, inextricably intertwined!

 

[PrayersForMaura]

This just makes me angry! :furious: They can behead our citizens, torture our soldiers, treat women like dirt, but the Pope says a true statement about their "religion" and something that happened eons ago and they get thier panties all in a big wad. Islam...a peaceful religion my a$$!

I just hope they settle their butts down.....my mom leaves for a 2 week tour to Italy tomorrow to visit Rome, Venice, and quite a few other spots. Now not only do I have to worry about the plane ride over and back, but I'll be chomping at the bit if they keep acting up knowing my mom is over there. I suggested that she postpone here trip....well, not my mom! She said they want us to stop living and to be afraid and that she will not give them that satisfaction. She also flies planes upside down (aerobatics) :crazy: . She is quite the character! It sucks being the "sandwich" generation....when you have to worry about your children and your parents!

I hesitate to say this, but these extremists cannot be reasonable people. I really think it's time to withdrawl our troops and just level the whole area. It sure did shut Japan up. :silenced:
Just my :twocents:

I will keep your mom in my prayers. She sounds like one cool lady!!

 

[Peter Hamilton]

Gee,and I thought that this new Pope was going to be boring--lol--Well,you have to like his statements,especially the fact that he quoted someone from the 14th century--Pope probably remembers bin Laden complaining about the Crusades,which was like 1000 years ago--lol--Muslim religion seems to be big on beheadings,don't think the word "love" is ever mentioned in the Koran either--

 

[Paladin]

I was very sad to see churches being attacked and burned on the news. It makes you wonder if some people are actually intellectually inferior that their brains are lacking the capacity to understand words and restrain themselves from making matters worse.

 

[BarnGoddess]

I'm not understanding your interpretation of Cow 2.224. That verse implores followers, out of love for Allah, to care for their fellow man.

In both Christianity and Islam, we are asked to love our fellows as we do a higher being. IE - to love and serve Allah, means to love and serve your neighbor and to love and serve God/Christ, means to love and serve your fellow man.

As I said, love of Allah is the only love mentioned here. The words of that verse never mentioned love of your fellow man, just love of Allah. You are interpreting it, as is a problem with the Koran. It can be interpreted so many ways. Yes, the Bible can also be interpreted many ways also.

 

[BarnGoddess]

Our personal experiences definitely flavor our opinion regarding Islamic men.

My husband's godfather is an Islamic psychiatrist who was raised in that tradition. He now lives in New England. He has been married for 30+ years to an Irish Catholic woman. He is a wonderful man - kind, loving, funny.

I have had the opportunity to meet many of his male and female family members from the Middle East. My experiences with them have been, without exception, positive.

I recently attended the wedding of his oldest daughter. The service was a blend of Islam and Christianity and it was fantastic and very moving.

There are good and bad eggs everywhere. My opinion is that the good ones (from any trdaition) don't get enough press!

Then perhaps your husband's godfather should be one of those moderate Muslims to get up and speak loud and clear about Muslim extremism and terrorism, publicly.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Then perhaps your husband's godfather should be one of those moderate Muslims to get up and speak loud and clear about Muslim extremism and terrorism, publicly.

Yeah, where are all the outraged "good muslims" anyway? Why do they remain silent?

 

[windovervocalcords]

Yeah, where are all the outraged "good muslims" anyway? Why do they remain silent?

I have posted a few links and folks seem to ignore the evidence that there are good muslims. One can read and educate oneself or stay in ignorance.


Peaceful, Patriotic Muslims in America
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=7084

"Violent activities breed hatred in society, while non-violent activities elicit love. Violence is the way of destruction while non-violence is the way of construction. In an atmosphere of violence, it is enmity which flourishes, while in an atmosphere of non-violence, it is friendship which flourishes. The method of violence gives way to negative values while the method of non-violence is marked by positive values. The method of violence embroils people in problems, while the method of non-violence leads people to the exploiting of opportunities. In short, violence is death, non-violence is life."

1. Only defensive war is permitted in Islam. Such a war is one in which aggression is committed by some other party so that the believers have to fight in self-defense. Initiating hostility is not permitted for Muslims. The Qur’an says: "They were the first to attack you." (9:13)
   1. Furthermore, even in the case of the offensive being launched by an opposing group, the believers are not supposed to retaliate immediately. Rather in the beginning all efforts are to be made to avert war, and only when avoidance has become impossible is battle to be resorted to inevitably in defense.
   2. More at link:....

http://www.alrisala.org/Articles/papers/nonviolence.htmhttp://www.muhajabah.com/islamicblog/archives/veiled4allah/005101.php