Possible Victim: Shannan Gilbert, 24, missing May 2010, found Oak Beach Dec 2011 #3

[Betty P]

Well, whatever happened it was not ”a horrible accident”. Even good guys can lie with a fairly straight face apparently. LE’s comments regarding the matter are slightly robotic however. IMHO obviously.

She didn't trip and fall on her hyoid bone, causing it to break.

Hyoid bone fracture - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Bobbbbberson]

She didn't trip and fall on her hyoid bone, causing it to break.

Hyoid bone fracture - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Correct me if I’m wrong but both autopsies found the hyoid and larynx were missing not broken. Badens report did indicate “roughness around the edges” where the hyoid bone would be attached… but I think if there was conclusive evidence it was broken he would have stated that.

 

[Betty P]

"The larynx was missing and only the body of the hyoid bone was was found; the two greater horns of that neck bone were missing....the ..hyoid bone showed a roughness around the edges where the hyoid bone was attached" IOW, JMO the greater horns of the hyoid bone were missing, apparently broken off.
Tests revealed there were no drugs in her system.

https://gilgonews.com/reports/drbadenreport.pdf

Dr. Baden said: "It is my opinion, based on the circumstances of Shannan's death and on the materials that I have reviewed, that there is no evidence that she died of natural disease, of a drug overdose or of drowning. There is insufficient information to determine a definite cause of death, but the autopsy findings are consistent with homicidal strangulation."
Emphasis mine

 

[Bobbbbberson]

"The larynx was missing and only the body of the hyoid bone was was found; the two greater horns of that neck bone were missing....the ..hyoid bone showed a roughness around the edges where the hyoid bone was attached" IOW, JMO the greater horns of the hyoid bone were missing, apparently broken off.
Tests revealed there were no drugs in her system.

https://gilgonews.com/reports/drbadenreport.pdf

Dr. Baden said: "It is my opinion, based on the circumstances of Shannan's death and on the materials that I have reviewed, that there is no evidence that she died of natural disease, of a drug overdose or of drowning. There is insufficient information to determine a definite cause of death, but the autopsy findings are consistent with homicidal strangulation."
Emphasis mine

Willing to bet that whatever drugs I think she was on (probably cocaine) were undetectable after how long she was out in the marsh. She went to “party” with JB which I’ve learned is synonymous with sex workers and johns for using cocaine during a date.

Badens “consistent with homicide” finding is based on if there was a broken hyoid bone. Sadly I don’t think we’ll ever 100% know the answer without that bone. However I think it’s far more likely it was not homicide mostly due to strange course of events that night.

 

[Betty P]

Willing to bet that whatever drugs I think she was on (probably cocaine) were undetectable after how long she was out in the marsh. She went to “party” with JB which I’ve learned is synonymous with sex workers and johns for using cocaine during a date.

Badens “consistent with homicide” finding is based on if there was a broken hyoid bone. Sadly I don’t think we’ll ever 100% know the answer without that bone. However I think it’s far more likely it was not homicide mostly due to strange course of events that night.

So interesting how all her other bones were found except those. The rough edges of the hyoid are enough evidence that those bones were broken. That doesn't happen by accident. There were also no signs of post mortem animal activity.

After all this evidence, it's interesting how every other deceased person whose body was found on Ocean Parkway was considered a murder victim. Why does Suffolk County PD consider this victim an "accidental death"? Given the totality of evidence, it seems best to allow a jury to make that decision.

 

[snooptroop88]

No idea if more persons than RH would have been involved, but if RH did all those other killings, it's quite within the realm of possibility RH did this one as well. Some might have figured they'd never be able to get sufficient evidence and hence the "unknown/unnatural" status. But the early "drowning" determination, I mean-- seriously?? And they must be using psychics over at the Suffolk PD at that time because they made that determination even before the body was discovered. The same way Hackett was "Police Surgeon," there must also have been a "Police Psychic." I mean...??? That case should never have been closed. And not that what I think matters, but as far as I'm concerned-- it's not closed, obviously MOO.

 

[snarast]

Willing to bet that whatever drugs I think she was on (probably cocaine) were undetectable after how long she was out in the marsh. She went to “party” with JB which I’ve learned is synonymous with sex workers and johns for using cocaine during a date.

Badens “consistent with homicide” finding is based on if there was a broken hyoid bone. Sadly I don’t think we’ll ever 100% know the answer without that bone. However I think it’s far more likely it was not homicide mostly due to strange course of events that night.

Yes and since all the other victim’s are sex workers, by your line of reasoning, she would not be the only one.

She is the only one who wasn’t buried, a toddler or dismembered, though. Except the young Asian male.

So rather than assuming that this was a hasty murder done when there was a compromised scene - 911 calls and at least 4 independent witnesses involved - it was instead the victim’s own fault for being high. Right.

She identified her phone.
She remembered 911.
She located houses, doors and ring bells.
She identified Pak and Brewer as people to get away from.

And then she - at dawn with good visibility - thought that tredging through a Marsh naked - an endeavour that would likely hurt more than Christ’s suffering on the cross - was a good idea?

 

[WINDSOR]

Either Shannan was murdered, or if we agree with the SCPD theory, she just wandered off into the marsh while disrobing, got lost and stumbled and fell into a shallow puddle and drowned. This odd behavior was the result of her drug induced psychotic episode.

As with most absurd theories, the SCPD explanation has some semblance of truth.

• Whatever drug Dr. Hackett gave her could have had some negative cognitive effect on Shannan. But the the good doctor surely would not release a patient who was impaired alone, would he? Not likely.
• Shannan could have disrobed, as of the effects of hypothermia, except it was not that cold that morning.
• Shannan could have drowned in a puddle of water, but there was no evidence of drowning. She could have been choked to death, or had her head held down in a puddle of water as well. All likely alternative scenarios.

Most of the people involved with Shannan that night had been convicted criminals, or were partaking in criminal activity
or, found to have lied. The likelihood that Shannan died innocently is just not reasonable.

MOO

 

[Bobbbbberson]

Yes and since all the other victim’s are sex workers, by your line of reasoning, she would not be the only one.

She is the only one who wasn’t buried, a toddler or dismembered, though.

So rather than assuming that this was a hasty murder done when there was a compromised scene - 911 calls and at least 4 independent witnesses involved - it was instead the victim’s own fault for being high. Right.

She identified her phone.
She remembered 911.
She located houses, doors and ring bells.
She identified Pak and Brewer as people to get away from.

And then she - at dawn with good visibility - thought that tredging through a Marsh naked - an endeavour that would likely hurt more than Christ’s suffering on the cross - was a good idea?

All

Either Shannan was murdered, or if we agree with the SCPD theory, she just wandered off into the marsh while disrobing, got lost and stumbled and fell into a shallow puddle and drowned. This odd behavior was the result of her drug induced psychotic episode.

As with most absurd theories, the SCPD explanation has some semblance of truth.

• Whatever drug Dr. Hackett gave her could have had some negative cognitive effect on Shannan. But the the good doctor surely would not release a patient who was impaired alone, would he? Not likely.
• Shannan could have disrobed, as of the effects of hypothermia, except it was not that cold that morning.
• Shannan could have drowned in a puddle of water, but there was no evidence of drowning. She could have been choked to death, or had her head held down in a puddle of water as well. All likely alternative scenarios.

Most of the people involved with Shannan that night had been convicted criminals, or were partaking in criminal activity
or, found to have lied. The likelihood that Shannan died innocently is just not reasonable.

MOO

Certainly agree that she did not die innocently. Murder or not, there were countless opportunities that night for things to either never progress to the point they did, or for residents to help her after she left JBs house.

Hackett is certainly an untrustworthy person. Nobody truly knows if he gave her drugs… even if he did I don’t think it’s likely he had the physical ability to murder and then dump her body deep in the marsh. IMO drugs played a part in the events that night but think it’s more likely that was from whatever JB gave her to “party”.

Temps were low enough (60° per the nearest weather station, plus it’s colder on the coast with the wind and sea water temps) to cause hypothermia. If she was undressed, in water, with the wind, death from exposure is probable. With water temps between 50-60° expected survival time is 6 hours or less (just to give an example).

Cause of death will remain a mystery and agree death by drowning is less likely than other theories.

I just can’t get over the question of who had the time, opportunity, ability, and to a lesser extent motive to kill her.

Appreciate your thoughts… crazy to think how different things could have been if it didn’t take 45 min for the police to respond.

 

[snarast]

All

Certainly agree that she did not die innocently. Murder or not, there were countless opportunities that night for things to either never progress to the point they did, or for residents to help her after she left JBs house.

Hackett is certainly an untrustworthy person. Nobody truly knows if he gave her drugs… even if he did I don’t think it’s likely he had the physical ability to murder and then dump her body deep in the marsh. IMO drugs played a part in the events that night but think it’s more likely that was from whatever JB gave her to “party”.

Temps were low enough (60° per the nearest weather station, plus it’s colder on the coast with the wind and sea water temps) to cause hypothermia. If she was undressed, in water, with the wind, death from exposure is probable. With water temps between 50-60° expected survival time is 6 hours or less (just to give an example).

Cause of death will remain a mystery and agree death by drowning is less likely than other theories.

I just can’t get over the question of who had the time, opportunity, ability, and to a lesser extent motive to kill her.

Appreciate your thoughts… crazy to think how different things could have been if it didn’t take 45 min for the police to respond.

Indeed. Especially since Coletti mistakenly referred to Shannan as 14 when speaking to 911. No rush for children either apparently.

Really, she could have been slung into a car, murdered therein and disposed of within 20 minutes. I guess that’s the best case scenario.

 

[Ruminations]

Willing to bet that whatever drugs I think she was on (probably cocaine) were undetectable after how long she was out in the marsh. She went to “party” with JB which I’ve learned is synonymous with sex workers and johns for using cocaine during a date.

Badens “consistent with homicide” finding is based on if there was a broken hyoid bone. Sadly I don’t think we’ll ever 100% know the answer without that bone. However I think it’s far more likely it was not homicide mostly due to strange course of events that night.

Willing to bet that her having been or having not been on drugs is irrelevant.

What would that have to do with her murder?

MOO

 

[WINDSOR]

Bobbbbberson said​

"Temps were low enough (60° per the nearest weather station, plus it’s colder on the coast with the wind and sea water temps) to cause hypothermia. If she was undressed, in water, with the wind, death from exposure is probable. With water temps between 50-60° expected survival time is 6 hours or less (just to give an example)."

Pretty rare for hypothermia to set in at temperatures 60 degrees and above. Older people or people in water would be more susceptible though. There is no evidence that Shannan was immersed in water. Remember as daylight was approaching, if Shannan was lost she could see the homes in Oak Beach to give her a direction to walk, unless she was immobilized.

 

[I am not Sherlock H.]

Bobbbbberson said​

"Temps were low enough (60° per the nearest weather station, plus it’s colder on the coast with the wind and sea water temps) to cause hypothermia. If she was undressed, in water, with the wind, death from exposure is probable. With water temps between 50-60° expected survival time is 6 hours or less (just to give an example)."

Pretty rare for hypothermia to set in at temperatures 60 degrees and above. Older people or people in water would be more susceptible though. There is no evidence that Shannan was immersed in water. Remember as daylight was approaching, if Shannan was lost she could see the homes in Oak Beach to give her a direction to walk, unless she was immobilized.

I have always wondered about clothes shedding from hypothermia as well. (But most seem to discount it seems IMO.) But in a marshy, damp, coastal area how might that affect it? Time of day, wind, etc?

What might have the effect if any been on her body temperature or circulation if she had been drinking alcohol? And / or if other drugs were used? (I have not read the coroner’s or toxicology reports.)

One thing is certain IMO: thank goodness for the perseverance and efforts of SG, her late mother, her family, their attorney JR, and Mr. Harrison. Without that, the discoveries relating to LISK and / or GILGO might not have come to light. MOO

 

[Bobbbbberson]

Bobbbbberson said​

"Temps were low enough (60° per the nearest weather station, plus it’s colder on the coast with the wind and sea water temps) to cause hypothermia. If she was undressed, in water, with the wind, death from exposure is probable. With water temps between 50-60° expected survival time is 6 hours or less (just to give an example)."

Pretty rare for hypothermia to set in at temperatures 60 degrees and above. Older people or people in water would be more susceptible though. There is no evidence that Shannan was immersed in water. Remember as daylight was approaching, if Shannan was lost she could see the homes in Oak Beach to give her a direction to walk, unless she was immobilized.

Immersed… no. Half naked in a wet marsh plus coastal wind would increase susceptibility to hypothermia drastically.

That marsh was very difficult for LE to even get through. IMO she made it as far as she could through the marsh but ran out of energy and succumb to the elements.

 

[Ruminations]

Immersed… no. Half naked in a wet marsh plus coastal wind would increase susceptibility to hypothermia drastically.

That marsh was very difficult for LE to even get through. IMO she made it as far as she could through the marsh but ran out of energy and succumb to the elements.

Shannan Gilbert did not enter into the marsh in the dark. She was coherent but terrified. She was last seen alive in the light.

If she died in the marsh, it was not of hypothermia. And if she died in the marsh, she was not alone.

It is theory that makes absolutely no sense considering the surrounding events that morning. The weather and water temperatures are not relevant. It's just not what happened.

MOO

 

[wcasewatch]

Shannan Gilbert did not enter into the marsh in the dark. She was coherent but terrified. She was last seen alive in the light.

If she died in the marsh, it was not of hypothermia. And if she died in the marsh, she was not alone.

It is theory that makes absolutely no sense considering the surrounding events that morning. The weather and water temperatures are not relevant. It's just not what happened.

MOO

I didn't find her to be coherent at all. The FBI hired a psychiatrist who reviewed the call and agreed as much.

I think there are a lot of people who are emotionally invested in the idea that Shannan was a LISK victim and that Oak Beach was the epicenter of the case. Doctors and wealthy groups of people are more "exciting" than a lone predator.

The fact is, none of us were there. Nobody here can discount or disprove the hypothermia theory.

 

[snarast]

I didn't find her to be coherent at all. The FBI hired a psychiatrist who reviewed the call and agreed as much.

I think there are a lot of people who are emotionally invested in the idea that Shannan was a LISK victim and that Oak Beach was the epicenter of the case. Doctors and wealthy groups of people are more "exciting" than a lone predator.

The fact is, none of us were there. Nobody here can discount or disprove the hypothermia theory.

I think there are some ppl who don’t understand that Shannan is hiding the 911-call and that is part of why she sounds intermittently superconfused.

 

[snooptroop88]

I didn't find her to be coherent at all. The FBI hired a psychiatrist who reviewed the call and agreed as much.

I think there are a lot of people who are emotionally invested in the idea that Shannan was a LISK victim and that Oak Beach was the epicenter of the case. Doctors and wealthy groups of people are more "exciting" than a lone predator.

The fact is, none of us were there. Nobody here can discount or disprove the hypothermia theory.

All MOO. Agreed on this idea that nobody can currently disprove it, but it may ultimately be disproven nonetheless if it is not the reality of what happened to SG. I used to buy the hypothermia theory as well. But that thicket she supposedly "ran into" is so savage, sharp, and thick, it would be an actually painful exercise (if not impossible) to venture into that for a girl that size in her attire. It is so savage, sharp, and thick that someone with a badge and a title actually advanced the idea (into MSM) that it pulled off her jeans. That's not even cocaine territory, that is PCP territory. And PCP wouldn't produce several mentions of "someone" after her. That is a little too reality-based for the PCP territory that would have supposedly driven her into the thicket. "Someone" after her implies someone not in her presence at that time, but someone she is aware of, maybe "John Springfield," and she knows she does not have his real name. There are alternative theories here that are to me much more plausible than "unknown natural causes." More like a now suspected, highly unnatural cause already in custody and awaiting trial. If not him, someone similar to him. I don't trust the Suffolk County Police Psychic that noted she'd drowned before the body was even located. I'm reading "Lost Girls" now, and I would note this former police commissioner's comment made when the bodies were being unearthed on Ocean Parkway: “I don’t want anyone to think we have a Jack the Ripper running around Suffolk County with blood dripping from a knife."

That's a real relief. Thanks for letting us know.

 

[wcasewatch]

I think there are some ppl who don’t understand that Shannan is hiding the 911-call and that is part of why she sounds intermittently superconfused.

She wasn't hiding it very well. They knew that she was on the phone. It just took a while for them to realize that it was a 911 call. Considering her line of work and how calm she was, it's understandable that they were surprised to find out that she was calling the police.

Shannan seemed way too calm for someone who believed that her life was in danger. She accused her driver of being involved in a plot to kill her, then asked him to take her home a few seconds later. She screamed and ran away from Gus's house for no discernible reason.

Shannan was diagnosed with bipolar disorder and did not take medication for it. She sounded just like a relative of mine who went off her meds and believed that everyone was conspiring against her.

A trained psychiatrist listened to her call and noticed all of this. People can believe what they want, but I just don't see it. All of her responses gave me red flags.

 

[Ruminations]

I didn't find her to be coherent at all. The FBI hired a psychiatrist who reviewed the call and agreed as much.

I think there are a lot of people who are emotionally invested in the idea that Shannan was a LISK victim and that Oak Beach was the epicenter of the case. Doctors and wealthy groups of people are more "exciting" than a lone predator.

The fact is, none of us were there. Nobody here can discount or disprove the hypothermia theory.

The hypothermia theory is the least logical of all possibilities. It was not dark, wet or cold.

Your personal attack that others with sensible theories are " emotionally invested" in them rather than reasonably drawn to them defies logic.

It is not the most rational explanation that she died from hypothermia, so if there is a theory supported by emotions over fact, that is it.

Nobody can tell you how to interpret the facts. However, you have no basis to call reasonable theories emotional.

MOO