Premeditated Murder #972

[JBean]

This thread just cracks me up.
I think we will have to wait and see if the state seeks felony murder instructions and if they are so entitled, then it will be so. As felony murder is not a lesser charge, but rather another different murder charge, if it comes into play it will be interesting. A second degree felony murder charge could come into play because that might be easier to prove? don't know and that is why I have been trying to stick to what she is currently charged with and the possibilites of a jury being able to convict on those specific charges.

But maybe you guys should bump an old thread about comparing the charges and what the jury may be instructed to deliberate on.
thanks.


The topic is still premeditation and the ability to prove it for a conviction. Not lesser charges and not felony murder charges, but if she can be convicted on premeditated murder.

Thoughtelf - legal standards and personal standards are a far cry from each other. So, just know that many will be debating it from completely different levels and so it will be an even more unusual thread LOL.
But you seem to be describing every thread in the forum. What she did, when she did it and what it may mean it terms of allegedly killing her daughter.As always, thank you for your thoughts and input.

 

[lin]

And to get us back on topic, in cases cited earlier in the thread, the Florida Supreme Court repeatedly held that premeditation may be inferred from circumstantial evidence.

Lynch v. State, Nos. SC06-2233 & SC07-1246 (Fla. 2008):

"Johnson v. State, 969 So. 2d 938, 951 (Fla. 2007) ("Premeditation can be inferred from circumstantial evidence such as 'the nature of the weapon used, the presence or absence of adequate provocation, previous difficulties between the parties, the manner in which the homicide was committed, and the nature and manner of the wounds inflicted." (citations omitted)

I'm confident the above case was not meant as an all inclusive list but just based on what was written, I think we can make a very good case using inferences from circumstantial evidence. As premeditation can be inferred from the 'nature of the weapon used' it seems to me that suffocation by duct tape would qualify if the jury infers it was the mechanism of death. Add to that the lack of provocation (Caylee was only 2 years old) and imo, KC's sitter issues could be construed as 'difficulties between the parties.'

Any other ideas for inferences that can be drawn from the circumstantial evidence to prove premeditation?

 

[cecybeans]

I'm sure we all have different thresholds when it comes to our personal definition of premeditation because out here in the world it's a highly subjective and emotional decision.

What gives me confidence here, in matching the state's charges with the definition is that, from a jury instruction point of view, Florida insists that KC was required to give aid to a minor under 12 who had an accident (and clearly did not if she did not call in a professional). The fact she did not, or waited so long Caylee would have clearly been dead is, in of itself, an act of aggravated child abuse. That immediately raises the charge to Murder One if it is a child under 12. That is best case scenario for an accident.

The presence of duct tape, as has been discussed, creates the legal implication of either premeditation or of actual COD, regardless of whether placed ante-peri or post-mortem. The duct tape elevates the gravity of the charge and minimizes the chance of accident. It is a premediated act, regardless of time administered.

The subsequent actions of the defendant speak to state of mind and continue to reinforce the context that, even if the actual act was not premeditated (and the duct tape neutralizes that), then it was clearly an event that had little or no negative effect on KC. Her continued behavior of deliberate deception, up to and including the discovery of the crime, obstruction of justice by lying to LE and attempting to implicate others, indicate a predilection toward the level of calculation - almost baroque in complexity - inherent in malicious premeditation.

Regardless of what we personally need to feel justified, it would seem that FL requirements for a jury to consider premeditation have been met.

 

[The Eunice Burns]

The thing I keep coming back to when you strip away all the legalese, is that the jury will have the same reactions to the evidence that 99% of us here at WS and in many other forums I've lurked on. Yes, every attempt will be made to seat a jury that will be willing to listen to the evidence before forming an opinion as to guilt or innocence, i.e, a jury composed of people who know little to nothing about the case.....but after that is accomplished, that jury will be made up of a cross section of-- well, people. Feeling, thinking people, people like us. And hearing, reading, and seeing the whole package of evidence? Would they really come away w/ a different opinion (verdict) of what the vast majority of those following the case have arrived at? I don't think so. JB & AL can try and razzle dazzle em' all the way, (personally, I hope AL tries a stunt on a par of chaining herself to a chair, and I hope LKB reveals that contemptible attitude she has towards Judge S) but the jury will want to make someone pay for this crime, and it will be the obvious choice---KC. Who else fits all the required elements? No one.

Anyway, that's my offering.

 

[LCoastMom]

Well dang if I didn't compose a reply to the other thread only to find it closed and this one opened and it was lost in cyberspace. :crazy:

Anyhow, I know it's bad form to quote myself. However, since leakage was discussed I am curious to know if the above could have been part of the SAs decision to go forward again with the DP. I still have not been able to find the FBI results for these three items.

My thinking is IF decomp was found in/on the gas cans which were in the truck as well as in the oil pan part of the car then it would be premeditation along with the tape found attached to Caylee.

JBean, if this does not belong here in this thread, please zap it away. Thanks.

Her brother broke this story to OCSD, didn't he? Telling them KC had told him how she had spoken to their dad. Like she was bragging and he was sharing with 'the guys' (Det's Melich and Allen) what a potty mouth his sister had to his dad...

Then George, did his little number, describing several times exactly how it played out... early on he knew KC was scamming him with the "mom told me about the gas can" He tried to catch her with the can in the car. With her penchant for story telling, if GA had taken it out when she wasn't there, she would have no idea what he was talking about...

But instead of saying he knew she was lying, he claimed to be looking for blocks for the car...

Didn't it seem at the beginning this story just wouldn't go away...

 

[RR0004]

Her brother broke this story to OCSD, didn't he? Telling them KC had told him how she had spoken to their dad. Like she was bragging and he was sharing with 'the guys' (Det's Melich and Allen) what a potty mouth his sister had to his dad...

Then George, did his little number, describing several times exactly how it played out... early on he knew KC was scamming him with the "mom told me about the gas can" He tried to catch her with the can in the car. With her penchant for story telling, if GA had taken it out when she wasn't there, she would have no idea what he was talking about...

But instead of saying he knew she was lying, he claimed to be looking for blocks for the car...

Didn't it seem at the beginning this story just wouldn't go away...

I agree...but personally when telling the gas can story (which makes my head hurt!) he was merely explaining how he had tricked Casey into revealing she had stolen them. George knew she was lying IMO. Do you think he was trying to say she hadn't taken those dang cans?

 

[countzero]

I am asking about the swabs results of the two gas cans and the interior of the oil pan of KC's car. OCSO sent these swabs to the FBI asking to test for decomp. A letter, dtd 3.09, discusses the swabs but I cannot find the results for these swabs.

Sorry if my wording was confusing.

I should have asked it this way: Was decomp found on the bottom of the gas cans and in the interior of the oil pan of KC's car?

 

[Wudge]

SNIP


What gives me confidence here, in matching the state's charges with the definition is that, from a jury instruction point of view, Florida insists that KC was required to give aid to a minor under 12 who had an accident (and clearly did not if she did not call in a professional). The fact she did not, or waited so long Caylee would have clearly been dead is, in of itself, an act of aggravated child abuse. That immediately raises the charge to Murder One if it is a child under 12.

SNIP

The presence of duct tape, as has been discussed, creates the legal implication of either premeditation or of actual COD, regardless of whether placed ante-peri or post-mortem. The duct tape elevates the gravity of the charge and minimizes the chance of accident. It is a premediated act, regardless of time administered.

The subsequent actions of the defendant speak to state of mind and continue to reinforce the context that, even if the actual act was not premeditated (and the duct tape neutralizes that), then it was clearly an event that had little or no negative effect on KC. Her continued behavior of deliberate deception, up to and including the discovery of the crime, obstruction of justice by lying to LE and attempting to implicate others, indicate a predilection toward the level of calculation - almost baroque in complexity - inherent in malicious premeditation.

Regardless of what we personally need to feel justified, it would seem that FL requirements for a jury to consider premeditation have been met.

Cecybeans, your statement is not true as regards a charge of aggravated child abuse being immediately raised to murder if the dead child was under 12. Prosecutors would first need to charge Casey with murder that stemmed from aggravated child abuse and also be able to prove that charge. In Florida, that would be a charge of murder one under 782.04 (1)(a)(2)(h). However, the State's aggravated child abuse charge against Casey is under statute 827.03 (2), which is not a murder charge.

As regards premeditation, the duct tape works heavily against that notion based on but multiple short strip lengths of duct tape being found over Caylee's mouth and nose with not one of those strips having been wrapped entirely around her head. Also working against premeditation are hearts attached to the strips of duct tape, the fact that Caylee's hands were not tied and the tape itself having been left on the body instead of being removed and destroyed. Moreover, the location of Caylee's body -- on top of the ground, close to the road and close to the home -- also works strongly against premeditation as does the State's contention that Casey drove around for days with Caylee's body in the trunk of her car.

Additionally, cause of death is not known, the time and date of death are not known, the location of death is not known, the circumstances surrounding Caylee's death are not known, the mechanics of her death are not known, a crime scene is lacking, forensics from a crime scene is lacking, there is no eyewitness and there is no confession. Still worse is that the M.E. offers both drowning and asphyxiation as viable options, which converts to odds of 50/50. Obviously, those odds do not come close to the level of proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

As regards the ability to prove Casey murdered Caylee in a premeditated fashion or even with but malice aforethought, the important inculpatory evidence buckets remain empty, which equates to insufficient evidence to support a murder charge and an abundance of reasonable doubt.

 

[cecybeans]

Cecybeans, your statement is not true as regards a charge of aggravated child abuse being immediately raised to murder if the dead child was under 12. Prosecutors would first need to charge Casey with murder that stemmed from aggravated child abuse and also be able to prove that charge. In Florida, that would be a charge of murder one under 782.04 (1)(a)(2)(h). However, the State's aggravated child abuse charge against Casey is under statute 827.03 (2), which is not a murder charge.

As regards premeditation, the duct tape works against heavily that notion based on but multiple short strip lengths of duct tape being found over Caylee's mouth and nose with not one of those strips having been wrapped entirely around her head. Also working against premeditation are hearts attached to the strips of duct tape, the fact that Caylee's hands were not tied and the tape itself having been left on the body instead of being removed and destroyed. Moreover, the location of Caylee's body -- on top of the ground, close to the road and close to the home -- also works strongly against premeditation as does the State's contention that Casey drove around for days with Caylee's body in the trunk of her car.

Additionally, cause of death is not known, the time and date of death are not known, the location of death is not known, the circumstances surrounding Caylee's death are not known, the mechanics of her death are not known, a crime scene is lacking, forensics from a crime scene is lacking, there is no eyewitness and there is no confession. Still worse is that the M.E. offers both drowning and asphyxiation as viable options, which converts to odds of 50/50. Obviously, those odds do not come close to the level of proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

As regards the ability to prove Casey murdered Caylee in a premeditated fashion or even with but malice aforethought, the important inculpatory evidence buckets remain empty, which equates to insufficient evidence to support a murder charge and an abundance of reasonable doubt.

Thank you for clarifying the charges. There has been a lot of confusing interpretation of what they are and how FL's system works.

I think we can agree to disagree about the duct tape, since that is simply an interpretation. I think that the act of cutting multiple pieces of tape, which would of necessity include a small delay between measuring, cutting and applying each piece, strikes me as far more premeditated than the act of attaching a piece of tape at one end and simply wrapping it around the head in one motion. Many of us believe that a small child would find it difficult to remove any duct tape from the face and, since it appears to have been tangled up in the hair on each side of her face, it may not have made much difference. I'm not sure how you interpret the heart sticker as indication of no premeditation. I simply see it as an act of idiosyncratic symbolism, dressing the crime scene in some kind of macabre way to indicate ownership perhaps as reflected in all of the electronic hearts KC affixed to Caylee's pictures in her Photobucket. I'm sure the psychologists will have at that. We all have different ideas as to the necessity of finding a toddler's hands tied in order to presume she was restrained.

I'm not sure I understand how the placement of her body would indicate anything other than KC needing to get rid of it quickly at some point. If the decomp forensics say 2.6 days, that may simply mean how long the body lay unwrapped or unbagged.

Since eyewitnesses and confessions are in short supply in many trials, I don't think the absence of them automatically precludes assumptions that can be made from other direct or circumstantial evidence. If cause, time, date and precise location of death are absolutes for murder one, then I'm sure we'd have a problem prosecuting many other obvious homicides, particularly those that are successfully hidden for enough time for soft tissue to completely decompose.

Regardless of what the ME has been able to speculate regarding COD (both of which could be accidental or premediated), I find it most interesting that her previous DP attorney formally speculated that Caylee's death was most likely from an accidental drug overdose given by someone suffering from PPD and gave examples of other young mothers who had killed their children. Since that was ostensibly an argument created by collaboration with JB and the defendant, and is not contraindicated by the ME's report, it would almost seem a tacit admission of guilt to at least the lesser charge.

I think what people here were ultimately getting at is that it may be irrelevant how Caylee died, whether by negligence or premeditation in that the law may allow the presumption of premeditation if certain criteria are met that have been discussed.

I think it may be difficult for jurors to maintain a presumption of innocence on the premeditated portion if all of KC's previous and subsequent behavior show a probable and unmistakable pattern of premeditated manipulation and deceit as well as a calculated disregard for what belongs to others. I guess we will have to wait to see what a FL jury considers reasonable.

 

[JBean]

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73200&highlight=charges

 

[reeseeva]

Cecybeans, your statement is not true as regards a charge of aggravated child abuse being immediately raised to murder if the dead child was under 12. Prosecutors would first need to charge Casey with murder that stemmed from aggravated child abuse and also be able to prove that charge. In Florida, that would be a charge of murder one under 782.04 (1)(a)(2)(h). However, the State's aggravated child abuse charge against Casey is under statute 827.03 (2), which is not a murder charge.

[B]As regards premeditation, the duct tape works heavily against that notion based on but multiple short strip lengths of duct tape being found over Caylee's mouth and nose with not one of those strips having been wrapped entirely around her head. Also working against premeditation are hearts attached to the strips of duct tape, the fact that Caylee's hands were not tied and the tape itself having been left on the body instead of being removed and destroyed. Moreover, the location of Caylee's body -- on top of the ground, close to the road and close to the home -- also works strongly against premeditation[/B] as does the State's contention that Casey drove around for days with Caylee's body in the trunk of her car.

Additionally, cause of death is not known, the time and date of death are not known, the location of death is not known, the circumstances surrounding Caylee's death are not known, the mechanics of her death are not known, a crime scene is lacking, forensics from a crime scene is lacking, there is no eyewitness and there is no confession. Still worse is that the M.E. offers both drowning and asphyxiation as viable options, which converts to odds of 50/50. Obviously, those odds do not come close to the level of proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

As regards the ability to prove Casey murdered Caylee in a premeditated fashion or even with but malice aforethought, the important inculpatory evidence buckets remain empty, which equates to insufficient evidence to support a murder charge and an abundance of reasonable doubt.

BBM

Re: Bolded, Wudge, how do we know Caylee's hands and feet were not bound? There were other longer strips of duct tape found at the crime scene, not the shorter overlapping pieces over her mouth and nose, some measuring over 13 inches in length.

Also, I don't understand your reasoning, how "multiple short pieces of tape", that did not wrap around her head, works against premeditation? The multiple layering of the duct tape, speaks of something entirely different, to me.

Also, I question the "tape being left on her body and not removed" (would be extremely difficult to remove, given the fact it was attached to her hair), as working against premeditation? And lastly, her body being left on top of the ground, etc., would work against premeditation?

There has been much discussion about KC's habits, and "living 10mins at a time" that coincide with all these facts. Premeditation, I thought,can happen in seconds.

JMHO

 

[Macushla]

Snipped
As regards premeditation, the duct tape works heavily against that notion based on but multiple short strip lengths of duct tape being found over Caylee's mouth and nose with not one of those strips having been wrapped entirely around her head. Also working against premeditation are hearts attached to the strips of duct tape, the fact that Caylee's hands were not tied and the tape itself having been left on the body instead of being removed and destroyed. Moreover, the location of Caylee's body -- on top of the ground, close to the road and close to the home -- also works strongly against premeditation as does the State's contention that Casey drove around for days with Caylee's body in the trunk of her car.

Wudge: I have been reading this thread with interest. I am not sure where I stand on the issue of premeditation, but the discussion has been lively and I am enjoying it. I do have a question about the statement I bolded. You are very precise in what you consider fact and what you consider supposition. What lead you to state as 'fact' that Caylee's hand were not tied? I have read all the documents released so far and have seen nothing about this. You state this as a fact, and that surprised me a little because you are very cautious in what you will accpet as fact.

 

[Wudge]

BBM

Re: Bolded, Wudge, how do we know Caylee's hands and feet were not bound? There were other longer strips of duct tape found at the crime scene, not the shorter overlapping pieces over her mouth and nose, some measuring over 13 inches in length.

Also, I don't understand your reasoning, how "multiple short pieces of tape", that did not wrap around her head, works against premeditation? The multiple layering of the duct tape, speaks of something entirely different, to me.

Also, I question the "tape being left on her body and not removed" (would be extremely difficult to remove, given the fact it was attached to her hair), as working against premeditation? And lastly, her body being left on top of the ground, etc., would work against premeditation?

There has been much discussion about KC's habits, and "living 10mins at a time" that coincide with all these facts. Premeditation, I thought,can happen in seconds.

JMHO

Neither LE nor prosecutors have said or even claim that Caylee's hands were bound. That important, because it means Caylee's hands would have been free to remove short strips of duct tape if they had cut off her ability to breathe.

Regarding the importance of the absence of long strips of duct tape, if a murderer planned to use duct tape as the instrument of death on a person whose hands were free, they would certainly want to make those strips of duct tape hard to remove -- such as wrapping them entirely around the victim's head.

As for Casey allegedly leaving Caylee's body on the surface of the ground near a road that is near the home, that certainly does not demonstrate planning, which is part of premeditation. Rather, that more properly points to the absence of a plan.

You're correct. Premeditation can form in a short period of time, but simply thinking that's what took place is not what's truly important. If prosecutors were to allege that at trial, what would be most important would be proving it happened that way. However, without an eyewitness or a confession, I doubt that is possible.

HTH

 

[Macushla]

Neither LE nor prosecutors have said or even claim that Caylee's hands were bound. That important, because it means Caylee's hands would have been free to remove short strips of duct tape if they had cut off her ability to breathe. HTH

So your reasoning is because they have not mentioned it as yet, then it is a fact that her hands weren't bound?

 

[Wudge]

Wudge: I have been reading this thread with interest. I am not sure where I stand on the issue of premeditation, but the discussion has been lively and I am enjoying it. I do have a question about the statement I bolded. You are very precise in what you consider fact and what you consider supposition. What lead you to state as 'fact' that Caylee's hand were not tied? I have read all the documents released so far and have seen nothing about this. You state this as a fact, and that surprised me a little because you are very cautious in what you will accpet as fact.

I responded to this in my above post. You're correct in that there has been neither a leak nor a release (under the Sunshine law) of such evidence. And fifty plus years of assessing high-profiles cases tried in the press or today's crimetainment media have taught me that in such cases, D.A.s do not hold smoking guns back. They use everything at their disposal (including outright lies) to villify the defendant or defendants and poison the jury pool.

 

[Brini]

Neither LE nor prosecutors have said or even claim that Caylee's hands were bound. That important, because it means Caylee's hands would have been free to remove short strips of duct tape if they had cut off her ability to breathe.

Regarding the importance of the absence of long strips of duct tape, if a murderer planned to use duct tape as the instrument of death on a person whose hands were free, they would certainly want to make those strips of duct tape hard to remove -- such as wrapping them entirely around the victim's head.

As for Casey allegedly leaving Caylee's body on the surface of the ground near a road that is near the home, that certainly does not demonstrate planning, which is part of premeditation. Rather, that more properly points to the absence of a plan.

You're correct. Premeditation can form in a short period of time, but simply thinking that's what took place is not what's truly important. If prosecutors were to allege that at trial, what would be most important would be proving it happened that way. However, without an eyewitness or a confession, I doubt that is possible.

HTH

Wudge-- one can't tell from bones, whether there were bindings of not. Hence, there was no determination AT ALL as to whether the child was bound.

Have you read the thread?

It is your OPINION that Caylee's hands were not bound, and also your opinion that she could have removed the tape.

You are also forgetting that the strips of tape would around her face and into her hair. They were about 6" long. You seem to imply that they were shorter. IF she could have removed herself from KC's power long enough to have removed the strips, she would have had to pull out chunks of her hair that were large enough to keep the tape in place. The tape also kept a small amount of soft tissue in place.

Repeating an opinion over and over does not make it fact.

We have also discovered, per the posted case law, that if the victim is under age 12 and dies as a result of aggravated child abuse (which the taping, at least, would be) the charge is capital murder. Thus, premeditation is not even necessary.

 

[Wudge]

So your reasoning is because they have not mentioned it as yet, then it is a fact that her hands weren't bound?

I do pay attention to what I say or write, accordingly, that truth demonstrates my level of certainty as regards neither LE nor the prosecutors saying or claiming or that Caylee's hands were tied.

 

[Kentjbkent]

Neither LE nor prosecutors have said or even claim that Caylee's hands were bound. That important, because it means Caylee's hands would have been free to remove short strips of duct tape if they had cut off her ability to breathe.

Regarding the importance of the absence of long strips of duct tape, if a murderer planned to use duct tape as the instrument of death on a person whose hands were free, they would certainly want to make those strips of duct tape hard to remove -- such as wrapping them entirely around the victim's head.

(CLIPPED FOR BREVITY)

But what if the victim was not conscious at the time? What if the victim had been rendered helpless, say...from the temporary effects of cholorform?

 

[Kentjbkent]

As for Casey allegedly leaving Caylee's body on the surface of the ground near a road that is near the home, that certainly does not demonstrate planning, which is part of premeditation. Rather, that more properly points to the absence of a plan.

HTH

But could the murder ITSELF be premeditated, but the placement of the body "on the surface of the ground" merely points to the absence of a PLAN "B", when the PLAN "A" that was part of the premeditation fell apart (hence suggested 2.6 days in trunk?)?

 

[Brini]

Neither LE nor prosecutors have said or even claim that Caylee's hands were bound. That important, because it means Caylee's hands would have been free to remove short strips of duct tape if they had cut off her ability to breathe.

Regarding the importance of the absence of long strips of duct tape, if a murderer planned to use duct tape as the instrument of death on a person whose hands were free, they would certainly want to make those strips of duct tape hard to remove -- such as wrapping them entirely around the victim's head.

(CLIPPED FOR BREVITY)

But what if the victim was not conscious at the time? What if the victim had been rendered helpless, say...from the temporary effects of cholorform?

Actually, honey, pre-med isn't even needed. If the tapes were placed pre-mortem, she died as a result of aggravated child abuse. So, it's still a DP case.