Ramesy's Damed if they do, Damed if they don't, or is there more than meets the eye?

[tumble]

Their “expertise” comes in because they were in the EXACT same situation but behaved in a MUCH different way.

IMO, this kind of expertice is what really matters.
I find it interesting that his opinion also matches mine.
Maybe it is just common sense...

 

[Nedthan Johns]

doesn't anyone remember how everyone just knew the Elizabeth Smarts family was guilty because they had a pr person and because the Dad had a lawyer and so forth. Don't you remember all the rumors about how the DAD had to be lying and was very feminine and was gay and so forth. How no one could have come in from the outside and taken her without the parents noticing.The only difference is Elizabeth was found alive and thank God could point to her abductor.
Patsy and John were in the same situation but no one has ever come forward.
I myself can't understand why Mark Klass keeps interjecting himself into this case. He was the father of a daughter who was abducted and murdered.JBR was found murdered in her home. Polly was found weeks after the abduction, there was time to close loose ends with the family and any leads......there were also two other little girls present when she was taken who knew that man wasn't her dad..... I promise, Klaas was NEVER under the same umbrella of suspision as the Ramsey's......two completely different cases in my opinion. The only similarity is that both children died.


Ned: Oh but you are forgetting that Elizabeth's sister saw the man that took her and eventually that lead to the killer's arrest. I did not for one minute think Mr. Smart was invovled and I don't think many others did as well.
You follow the evidence in cases. You cannot ignore the evidence in the Ramsey case that STILL points to the parents. IN the Klass case fibers from his shirt weren't found on his daughter underpants. His wifes fibers from her jacket weren't found on the garrote. The knife used to cut the rope wasn't her brother's. on and on and on.... Yes much different cases.

The Ramseys knew their Daughter was dead within hours.....Mark Klaas was in a race to find a possibly alive child. HIs level of urgency to maybe find a child that was alive and was still in danger was higher, he also had the knowledge that they had a suspect, the man who walked in and was seen taking her at knife point.....they had a lead.

Ned: Funny how after that urgency to find "their" daughter quickly turned too, oh ***** she's dead, let's get the heck out of dodge!

I don't think hiring an attorney the day police find your daughter murdered in your basement is a bad thing, I think its smart. Maybe the hired the attorney to field all of the calls and arrange everything. Who knows, but it doesn't mean they were trying to cover things up.

Ned: Yeah call an attorney and ignore the police investigators whom are the only ones that have access to the direct evidence in this case. Yeah why not waste time, I mean the kid is dead right? They sure weren't concerned about this murderer committing another crime.

I also understand there was a pissing match between the police and the Rams over the body. My husband says he would have been the same way...and it has since been pointed out by law enforcement that they never should have held JBR's body as a ransom to get them to come in.I would have wanted to bury my baby as well, put her to rest, and then get to the business of finding out what freak did this. That was their daughter and they should have had access to bury her when they wanted. I would have had a bad taste in my mouth for the police after that as well.

Ned: IMO the body should have NEVER of been turned over until both of them were sepearted and interogated like ANY normal suspects in this case. IF for anything for public safety. They weren't too concerned about leaving their dead child in the home while they were making arrangements to fly to Georgia now where they kcksum?

Mark was never looked at inthe same way the Rams were so he can't say they behaved abnormal. What is abnormal for a parent who just found their 6 yr old raped and beaten to death? Is there a normal for that?

Ned: You are right there is nothing normal about that. There is nothing normal about ANY child and ANY age that is murdered.

Should we as a society say there has to be anormal for that? I have no idea what I would do. I might have pulled a gun out and blew my brains out just from freakin grief and shock alone. Would that have made me guilty in everyones eyes?

Ned: It might. I think most parents initial reaction would be to catch this killer and do whatever it took to bring him to justice. I don't know any cases where the parents of a murdered child immediately killed themselves because they were so greif stricken. I believe most want to bring the killer to justice.

People have to stop looking to toher peoples reactions to form a NORM intheir minds. After all, Polly Klass's mom has pretty much never shown her face in public again after the murder of her daughter. She doesn't want the attention and just wanted to move on. That doesn't make her any less of a person than her husband......it just makes her different than her husband which isn't abnormal.

Ned: You are right, but Polly Klass's mother was NEVER a suspect in the murder of her child, but the Ramsey's are in this case. Behavior is defined on how people react. That's why we know the difference between people for instance that are bipolar or psycotic, scitzophrenic, etc. It's all in how ONE behaves kcksum.

Pay close attention to the actions of John Bennet Ramsey.

 

[Nedthan Johns]

Thanks for posting that.

Hey maybe John should go to Thailand. I heard there is a really cheap apartment for rent!

Seriously folks, you don't see anything wrong with this?

The father of the most notorious crime in our decade is threatening to leave the country because he isn’t getting any peace??? What does he expect???

 

[Nedthan Johns]

what Fleet White witnessed in the basement


Ned: Oh thank you for bringing that back up. Here is the BEST friend of John Ramsey who now NO LONGER speaks to him. This man was adament that John Ramsey opened that door to the wine room and saw the body, when Fleet said it was completely black. How'd he know she was there?

 

[tumble]

what Fleet White witnessed in the basement


Ned: Oh thank you for bringing that back up. Here is the BEST friend of John Ramsey who now NO LONGER speaks to him. This man was adament that John Ramsey opened that door to the wine room and saw the body, when Fleet said it was completely black. How'd he know she was there?

There is a further twist to this. JR didn't know at that point that FW had peeked into the winecellar before, seeing nothing. FW had pretty good reasons to smell fish.

 

[PagingDrDetect]

Originally Posted by Nedthan Jones
Ned: Oh thank you for bringing that back up. Here is the BEST friend of John Ramsey who now NO LONGER speaks to him. This man was adament that John Ramsey opened that door to the wine room and saw the body, when Fleet said it was completely black. How'd he know she was there?

Excellent point. :clap: And the friendship dissolved immediately... they didn't even speak to each other at the funeral.

It's also very suspicious that when Det. Arndt ok'd them to search the house JR headed immediately for the basement.

Question - Apparently JR was AWOL for about 45 minutes between the time the police arrived and the body was found, which was several hours... what time frame was his disappearance? In other words... what time (about) did he disappear and what time (about) was he seen again?

 

[SleuthingSleuth]

I'm still wondering why the Ramseys denied the police access to the phone records.

I scratch my head at that one.

 

[Details]

As an innocent parent, you cooperate to the fullest, make yourself available to LE and you become "TRNASPARENT" so they can rule you out and get past you. The Ramsey's NEVER did this.

And what do you do when it is made quite clear that the only interest the police have in you is in collecting evidence to charge you? That they will follow no other lead, they are positive you did it, and any little difference in memory, anything they can get and warp to be a confession, they will use?

I keep thinking of the case in San Diego, where the police decided within minutes that the girls brother killed her - similar kind of bit - she was killed in her bedroom, no one but family there. They spent years trying to convict this kid, to the exclusion of all else - in particular to the exclusion of even looking at a transient they had picked up in the same neighborhood, trying to get into people's houses, looking for a girl he was mad at. The police even confiscated and held onto this transient's clothes to use as proof he didn't do it, if he ever came up as an alternate suspect - but they never tested or looked at the clothes. When they were forced to, many years later, after a judge had (like the Ramsey's) ruled against them - they found the little girl's blood on his sweatshirt! Believe it or not, some of them still to this day think it was the brother and his friends.

They weren't weird kids, no reason, the police just didn't think any intruder could have come and gone without leaving a trace, and after some serious sleep deprivation, pressure, and lies applied to the brother, he cracked a little ("If what you say is true, that you've got my DNA on the knife that killed my sister, I must have done it - but I don't remember it!") which they called a confession.

The police are usually good, and generally, I'd cooperate with them fully. But I wouldn't necessarily trust them with a kid, and interrogations of grieving parents - you've got to be pretty strong minded to be able to deal with your grief at what you just found out happened to your little girl, your natural guilt that as a parent you should have been able to protect them, and to deal with sleep deprivation, and every mind game police experts can throw at you.

 

[InnocentBystander]

Not only was he missing, the operator on the phone told him to search the house, but DO NOT TOUCH ANYTHING.


Lets not forget the scam artist who administered their lie detector test.

 

[tumble]

I'm still wondering why the Ramseys denied the police access to the phone records.

I scratch my head at that one.

think I can imagine why JR would deny them but I really can't understand why LE didn't just get a warrant for them.

 

[julianne]

what Fleet White witnessed in the basement


Ned: Oh thank you for bringing that back up. Here is the BEST friend of John Ramsey who now NO LONGER speaks to him. This man was adament that John Ramsey opened that door to the wine room and saw the body, when Fleet said it was completely black. How'd he know she was there?

Isn't that because FW didn't turn the light on, and John Ramsey did?

 

[Details]

doesn't anyone remember how everyone just knew the Elizabeth Smarts family was guilty because they had a pr person and because the Dad had a lawyer and so forth. Don't you remember all the rumors about how the DAD had to be lying and was very feminine and was gay and so forth. How no one could have come in from the outside and taken her without the parents noticing.The only difference is Elizabeth was found alive and thank God could point to her abductor.
Patsy and John were in the same situation but no one has ever come forward.
I myself can't understand why Mark Klass keeps interjecting himself into this case. He was the father of a daughter who was abducted and murdered.JBR was found murdered in her home. Polly was found weeks after the abduction, there was time to close loose ends with the family and any leads......there were also two other little girls present when she was taken who knew that man wasn't her dad..... I promise, Klaas was NEVER under the same umbrella of suspision as the Ramsey's......two completely different cases in my opinion. The only similarity is that both children died.
The Ramseys knew their Daughter was dead within hours.....Mark Klaas was in a race to find a possibly alive child. HIs level of urgency to maybe find a child that was alive and was still in danger was higher, he also had the knowledge that they had a suspect, the man who walked in and was seen taking her at knife point.....they had a lead.

I don't think hiring an attorney the day police find your daughter murdered in your basement is a bad thing, I think its smart. Maybe the hired the attorney to field all of the calls and arrange everything. Who knows, but it doesn't mean they were trying to cover things up.

I also understand there was a pissing match between the police and the Rams over the body. My husband says he would have been the same way...and it has since been pointed out by law enforcement that they never should have held JBR's body as a ransom to get them to come in.I would have wanted to bury my baby as well, put her to rest, and then get to the business of finding out what freak did this. That was their daughter and they should have had access to bury her when they wanted. I would have had a bad taste in my mouth for the police after that as well.

Mark was never looked at inthe same way the Rams were so he can't say they behaved abnormal. What is abnormal for a parent who just found their 6 yr old raped and beaten to death? Is there a normal for that? Should we as a society say there has to be anormal for that? I have no idea what I would do. I might have pulled a gun out and blew my brains out just from freakin grief and shock alone. Would that have made me guilty in everyones eyes?

People have to stop looking to toher peoples reactions to form a NORM intheir minds. After all, Polly Klass's mom has pretty much never shown her face in public again after the murder of her daughter. She doesn't want the attention and just wanted to move on. That doesn't make her any less of a person than her husband......it just makes her different than her husband which isn't abnormal.

Hear hear!!!! It's completely different when the kid is still, maybe alive, and you are not a suspect. The police were not good in this case, and they gave the Ramsey's reason to believe their interviews and their cooperation would not be used to find their daughter's killer, but rather to frame them for murder.

 

[SleuthingSleuth]

think I can imagine why JR would deny them but I really can't understand why LE didn't just get a warrant for them.

Apparently the DA somehow tied their hands and the police were required to get permission from the Ramseys.

Is what I've heard, anyways.

 

[newtv]

Frankly, I am sick of the media putting up Mark Klass as some sort of expert and I'm sick of all the rumor and inuendo about the Ramsey's and the way they acted.

I feel like they acted like distraught parents and helped law eforcement in any way possible, but they got frustrated with LEA that they were spending way too much time with them and not out hunting the sadistic killer of their daughter. I would act the SAME way!!

I don't think John Karr is the killer, but I do believe it was an intruder. For almost a year, I suspected that it was one of the Ramsey's including Burke. I am ashamed of myself for thinking that way now.

I agree though we are the lone voices in the pack..I just take time to support those who are brave enuf to step away from the tide.

 

[Details]

RiverRat found an interesting article on how JR is again contemplating fleeing...only this time it's the entire country!
The guy is such a lying hypocrite it makes my stomach churn.
Now he's worried about his safety...from the MEDIA!
Funny he wasn't worried about it when he appeared on CNN and various talk shows...or when he was running for office and pimping himself out to whoever would put his mug and words on tv, or in print all while standing on his daughter's grave and using her as his "platform"....

Ned: REally? Where is this? As soon as I heard him threaten that he would never talk to the media again it sent off warning bells. Now he is threatening to leave the country? Is this a fact?

I think so - and probably a wise decision. Lots of people have never let go of him, or worse yet, his son as the killers, no doubt there have been some horrible things said to both of them, and one nutjob is all it takes for him to lose his last remaining child and family member!

 

[Seeker]

Excellent point. :clap: And the friendship dissolved immediately... they didn't even speak to each other at the funeral.

It's also very suspicious that when Det. Arndt ok'd them to search the house JR headed immediately for the basement.

Question - Apparently JR was AWOL for about 45 minutes between the time the police arrived and the body was found, which was several hours... what time frame was his disappearance? In other words... what time (about) did he disappear and what time (about) was he seen again?

Fmr Det Arndt said (this is from memory so may not be exact) it was around 10 am.

SleuthingSleuth I'm still wondering why the Ramseys denied the police access to the phone records.

The Ramsey's had no control over the BPD accessing their phone records. That was the DA who didn't seem to interested in obtaining them. I think it's the DA has to get a judge to sign a warrant.
Then when the BPD finally got the cell phone records they were blank as if no calls had ever been made! The BPD knew the records had to have been purged because they used the Ramsey's cell phones themselves!

OH and just for further info on this thread here is a list of all of the parents who fully and completely cooperated with their local PD when their child was found missing.

Marc Klass
John & Reve Walsh
Damon & Brenda vanDam
Mark Lundsford and his parents
just to name a few. The challenge at this point is to provide the names of parents who dodged PD inquires, refused to meet seperately and set their own conditions on how, who and where they would cooperate with.

Oh and for guppy, the only differences in this case from the Klass case are that Polly was taken from the home IN FRONT OF WITNESSES then murdered later and JonBenet was found murdered IN HER HOME with a bogus ransom note and no "known" witnesses.
Funny how having those witnesses didn't immediately exonorate Polly's father who wasn't even there isn't it? Still he fully cooperated.

IMO any parent who's child has been brutally murdered is entitled to weigh in with an opinion of the way the Ramsey's acted vs the way they did.

 

[SleuthingSleuth]

The Ramsey's had no control over the BPD accessing their phone records. That was the DA who didn't seem to interested in obtaining them. I think it's the DA has to get a judge to sign a warrant.
Then when the BPD finally got the cell phone records they were blank as if no calls had ever been made! The BPD knew the records had to have been purged because they used the Ramsey's cell phones themselves!

Hmm...I see...interesting.

What about the house phone records?

 

[Details]

How can it be considered even remotely the same - being the parent of a missing, kidnapped child who has every chance of still being alive, and you have to race to find her before she is dead, and being the parent of a dead child - there is nothing you can do to bring her back - vengance against the killer isn't the first thing you think of, it's not your top priority as it is when trying to catch the kidnapper to find your child still alive - grief is the first priority, and your remaining family.

Being a major suspect that the police completely believe is guilty, versus being a secondary suspect, since there are witnesses saying you didn't do it yourself - also nothing alike.

 

[InnocentBystander]

Isn't that because FW didn't turn the light on, and John Ramsey did?

The light switch was a little ways in the room. John said he seen her from the doorway.

 

[tumble]

Now he is threatening to leave the country?

Can be that he is just really scared that JMK will start saying he was in on it and some may even believe him.
Srange, JR may actually has to face false accusations to a crime he may very well be responsible for.