Science is not biased (in unbiased hands)

[*Lash*]

Respectfully snipped -

In addition to the comments in the FAQ, we have the following additional relevant information:

Blood was found on her inner thighs and the source was either menses or spotting due to an IUD (Intrauterine Device). There was no genital trauma. A small amount of blood was also noted on her big toes which appeared to be due to small scratches from the plants below the balcony.
SDCSD press release, Sept 6, 2011
*NOTE* NO abrasions on the toes are mentioned in the AR – this is an additional speculative comment by Lucas.

ME Lucas - No abrasions on the toes in the AR, but then in the p/c she had abrasions on her toes that appear to come from plants. So how did an ME miss noting abrasions on Rebecca's toes in an official AR? He mentioned blood smears, but no abrasions? Nonsensical!

In my opinion since ME Lucas did not note her toe abrasions, I wonder if he forgot to note abrasions elsewhere. Maybe her vagina where blood was found? How does ME Lucas define "no evidence of sexual trauma"?

If the blood on the bottom of her toes and feet came from a plant, how did the blood get smeared? Lucas did not note abrasions or blood drippings in his AR. By the time Rebecca's body was found the blood should have been dry. I don't see any reason for AS to touch the bottom of Rebecca's feet. Even when moving her after being found, it doesn't make sense to touch the bottom of her feet. So why the word smear and what really caused Rebecca to have blood on the bottom of her feet?

 

[*Lash*]

• FAQ Number 3

Why didn’t the bed move as much as it did on KFMB? If she hung herself, the bed would have jerked away further?

The experiment conducted by employees of KFMB did not recreate the scene in a manner sufficient to stand up to the scrutiny of scientific method. In order to conduct a truly scientific experiment of this nature, one would have to have the exact carpet and padding (which was quite thick), a bed frame of the same weight and weight distribution, a mattress of the same weight and weight distribution, and the item simulating Rebecca would have to be of the same weight, weight distribution, and would have to have the flexibility of a human body. In addition, the object simulating a human body would have to go over the railing in a manner similar to what the evidence showed (bending over and sliding). Unless these elements can be duplicated exactly, this test is of no scientific value. On scene examination of the bed showed it had compressed the carpet at the contact points, and the bed was found to be rather heavy. All of this taken into consideration, none of the investigators on scene questioned the distance the bed was pulled away from the wall.

http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/faq.html

 

[Betty P]

• FAQ Number 3

Why didn’t the bed move as much as it did on KFMB? If she hung herself, the bed would have jerked away further?

The experiment conducted by employees of KFMB did not recreate the scene in a manner sufficient to stand up to the scrutiny of scientific method. In order to conduct a truly scientific experiment of this nature, one would have to have the exact carpet and padding (which was quite thick), a bed frame of the same weight and weight distribution, a mattress of the same weight and weight distribution, and the item simulating Rebecca would have to be of the same weight, weight distribution, and would have to have the flexibility of a human body. In addition, the object simulating a human body would have to go over the railing in a manner similar to what the evidence showed (bending over and sliding). Unless these elements can be duplicated exactly, this test is of no scientific value. On scene examination of the bed showed it had compressed the carpet at the contact points, and the bed was found to be rather heavy. All of this taken into consideration, none of the investigators on scene questioned the distance the bed was pulled away from the wall.

http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/faq.html

BBM

1. "the object simulating a human body would have to go over the railing in a manner similar to what the evidence showed (bending over and sliding)"



The dust markings on the railing clearly indicate R's body did not go over the railing in the manner SDSO claims it did. It would be impossible for someone to recreate SDSO's theory. It would be helpful, however, if SDSO did a recreation of the crime showing us exactly how it happened according to the few small marks left in the dust and the actual footprint evidence on the balcony. Why didn't that happen?

2. "All of this taken into consideration, none of the investigators on scene questioned the distance the bed was pulled away from the wall."

Again, the flawed interpretation of dust marks on the balcony and a glance around the room doesn't constitute a thorough analysis of the evidence. If more evidence was examined and more measurements and calculations made than was reported, the public should see it. If no further analysis was done, then it appears SDSO reached a premature conclusion without enough evidence. So how about a recreation?

 

[*Lash*]

Unless these elements can be duplicated exactly, this test is of no scientific value.

But I thought Gore said the case was based on science and science doesn't lie? I think Gore was trying to say science cannot lie if you don't test it.

 

[bourne]

• FAQ Number 3

Why didn’t the bed move as much as it did on KFMB? If she hung herself, the bed would have jerked away further?

The experiment conducted by employees of KFMB did not recreate the scene in a manner sufficient to stand up to the scrutiny of scientific method. In order to conduct a truly scientific experiment of this nature, one would have to have the exact carpet and padding (which was quite thick), a bed frame of the same weight and weight distribution, a mattress of the same weight and weight distribution, and the item simulating Rebecca would have to be of the same weight, weight distribution, and would have to have the flexibility of a human body. In addition, the object simulating a human body would have to go over the railing in a manner similar to what the evidence showed (bending over and sliding). Unless these elements can be duplicated exactly, this test is of no scientific value. On scene examination of the bed showed it had compressed the carpet at the contact points, and the bed was found to be rather heavy. All of this taken into consideration, none of the investigators on scene questioned the distance the bed was pulled away from the wall.

http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/faq.html

Well, Gore definitely is no scientist. Any reputable, legitimate scientist worth any salt would know that science is not only about repeatedly proving a theory through observations and controlled experimentations, but also about disconfirming hypotheses and in so doing, eliminate the impossible to hone in on the most probable scenario.

So, Gore's ridiculous statement, "unless these elements can be duplicated EXACTLY, this test is of NO scientific value" is completely and utterly FALSE.

Take a science class Gore. Stop speaking out of your rear.

 

[MyBelle]

But I thought Gore said the case was based on science and science doesn't lie? I think Gore was trying to say science cannot lie if you don't test it.

Courts don't usually accept a re-enactment as evidence unless it is full-scale and done by trained forensic examiners. Gore may not have wanted to spend taxpayer money when the conclusion was already pointing to suicide. Nothing prevented the Zahous from hiring their own expert.

JMO

 

[Zinn]

Courts don't usually accept a re-enactment as evidence unless it is full-scale and done by trained forensic examiners. Gore may not have wanted to spend taxpayer money when the conclusion was already pointing to suicide. Nothing prevented the Zahous from hiring their own expert.

JMO

IMO, public safety should have been a higher priority than the cost of a reenactment. Taxpayers are also community members who care deeply about their own safety and the safety of their children. Taxpayers expect suspicious deaths and suspicious persons to be properly investigated.

Taxpayers and community members also have an expectation that results of investigations, when reported publicly, will be reported truthfully. The sheriff failed the community in this regard, as well. Stating that AS passed the lie detector test was either incompetent or purposely misleading. I don't know which is worse. It's not just a waste of taxpayer money, it's a breach of trust.

All of the above is just my opinion.

 

[IQuestion]

IMO, public safety should have been a higher priority than the cost of a reenactment. Taxpayers are also community members who care deeply about their own safety and the safety of their children. Taxpayers expect suspicious deaths and suspicious persons to be properly investigated.

Taxpayers and community members also have an expectation that results of investigations, when reported publicly, will be reported truthfully. The sheriff failed the community in this regard, as well. Stating that AS passed the lie detector test was either incompetent or purposely misleading. I don't know which is worse. It's not just a waste of taxpayer money, it's a breach of trust.

All of the above is just my opinion.

I just took a few minutes to GOOGLE those infamous words, "SCIENCE DOESN'T LIE" thinking that I might be able to rewatch the "infamous" press conference....but these two came up instead.
The second result was about global warming and guess what...THE SCIENTISTS DO NOT AGREE...even when all are looking at the same data!!! http://www.fanpop.com/clubs/global-warming-prevention/images/33593204/title/science-doesnt-lie-photo
The first result was quite amusing about whether on not peanuts are good for you....presented in the multiple press conferences/videos by Mr. Peanut assuring "SCIENCE DOESN'T LIE" ....
http://crunchybeachmama.com/2013/10/science-doesnt-lie-powerofthepeanut/

(I think Sherf Gore stole Mr. Peanut's line:blushing
My point is that 'SCIENCE' is always open to interpretation, and only becomes clear as more data/facts/history/variabLes etc are examined by MANY PROFESSIONALS.

 

[cynic]

But I thought Gore said the case was based on science and science doesn't lie? I think Gore was trying to say science cannot lie if you don't test it.

I'm looking forward to the WDS giving Gore's "science" a good test.

 

[cynic]

BBM

1. "the object simulating a human body would have to go over the railing in a manner similar to what the evidence showed (bending over and sliding)"



The dust markings on the railing clearly indicate R's body did not go over the railing in the manner SDSO claims it did. It would be impossible for someone to recreate SDSO's theory. It would be helpful, however, if SDSO did a recreation of the crime showing us exactly how it happened according to the few small marks left in the dust and the actual footprint evidence on the balcony. Why didn't that happen?

2. "All of this taken into consideration, none of the investigators on scene questioned the distance the bed was pulled away from the wall."

Again, the flawed interpretation of dust marks on the balcony and a glance around the room doesn't constitute a thorough analysis of the evidence. If more evidence was examined and more measurements and calculations made than was reported, the public should see it. If no further analysis was done, then it appears SDSO reached a premature conclusion without enough evidence. So how about a recreation?

The two points you've critiqued are certainly worthy of the harshest criticsm - hard to believe they can say things like that with a straight face or perhaps typeface in this instance.

 

[cynic]

• FAQ Number 3

Why didn’t the bed move as much as it did on KFMB? If she hung herself, the bed would have jerked away further?

The experiment conducted by employees of KFMB did not recreate the scene in a manner sufficient to stand up to the scrutiny of scientific method.

It’s easy for the SDCSD to criticize, but why didn’t they man up and put up their own recreation for scrutiny as has been said in earlier posts and on other threads by many here.

In order to conduct a truly scientific experiment of this nature, one would have to have the exact carpet and padding (which was quite thick), a bed frame of the same weight and weight distribution, a mattress of the same weight and weight distribution, and the item simulating Rebecca would have to be of the same weight, weight distribution, and would have to have the flexibility of a human body. In addition, the object simulating a human body would have to go over the railing in a manner similar to what the evidence showed (bending over and sliding). Unless these elements can be duplicated exactly, this test is of no scientific value. On scene examination of the bed showed it had compressed the carpet at the contact points, and the bed was found to be rather heavy. All of this taken into consideration, none of the investigators on scene questioned the distance the bed was pulled away from the wall.
http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/faq.html

What is of no scientific value is making up evidence to fit a theory.
Where is the area on the railing that is sufficiently wiped clean to be consistent with the theory of bending over and sliding?
Where are the injuries, most notably, abrasions which would have been obvious on Rebecca’s head and torso if their hypothesis is correct?
What is of no scientific value is “eyeballing” items and forming conclusions.
“On scene examination of the bed showed it had compressed the carpet at the contact points, and the bed was found to be rather heavy.
All of this taken into consideration, none of the investigators on scene questioned the distance the bed was pulled away from the wall.”
They should be ashamed to have those two sentences in the public forum.
Is this how the investigation was conducted?
How did the conversation go among the “investigators?” Was it along the lines of, “hey Joe, that bed looks pretty heavy but I’d say moving a few inches would be just about right if Rebecca jumped over the balcony? Case closed, let’s grab a coffee.”

With respect to the reenactment, it was an unusual mix of attention to detail in some areas and oversights in others.
The most impressive bit of detective work was tracking down the maker of the bed frame.
The chief oversight can be summed up in one word – friction. Unfortunately, this severely damaged the validity of the reenactment.
There are three areas where friction would play an important part in the crime scene.
The point of contact between the rope and railing.
The point of contact between the rope and the closed balcony door.
The coefficient of friction (COF) between the bed and the rug.
In physics, the coefficient of friction is important and there are tables to show how different substances interact. The table below gives a sampling and show the difference between getting two things to begin to move (coefficient of static friction) while in contact with each other and the change in friction once movement has begun (coefficient of kinetic friction.)
Usually, although there are exceptions, the force required to initially move an object and overcome the forces of friction and gravity are higher than the force required to keep it moving.
In a situation such as we find in the crime scene there would definitely be a higher static coefficient of friction between the bed and rug because the bed had sunk into the rug over time.
Any difference between the crime scene and the reenactment with respect to kinetic or sliding friction would be down to the pile depth and material type of the rugs which may or may not be significant.
http://www.freeonlineresearchpapers.com/friction-sports
Just as a further illustration, if the bed was on a hard marble floor, it would have of course slid much further.

The rope is exposed to two areas in which it contacts other items and would be subject to friction.
The first contact is with the closed door on the balcony. This is about a 10 degree angle of contact with the edge of the wood door.
The second contact is with the top of the 1 inch iron balcony railing. This is a very significant source of braking friction in the crime scene.
The rope contacts the inner edge of the railing at about a 11 degree angle and then forms a 90 degree angle with the outer edge.
If the rope was going over a round tube, rather than the two relatively harsh edges of the railing, there would be a nice formula to determine the amount of force transmitted from the fall back to the bed.
That formula is FORCE@BED= FORCE * e^- coefficient of friction * angle of contact
Sources:
Friction Holding the Climber: An Experimental Example from Physics in
Sports
http://www.girep2005.fmf.uni-lj.si/proceedings/proceedings_GIREP_2005.pdf

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/bollard-force-d_1296.html

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/friction-coefficients-d_778.html

http://www.engineershandbook.com/Tables/frictioncoefficients.htm

The reenactment differs in two important respects:
The rope does not make contact with an obstructing door edge and a sharp-angled railing edge, but rather only with a well rounded beam shown in the picture below.
If this difference created a difference in the coefficient of friction of 0.2 (as an example,) then the change in force would be a huge 42%

Another less important difference is that the point where the rope was tied to the bed and the contact point over the railing are offset in the crime scene but directly in line in the reenactment.
There also appears to be a considerable difference in the dimensions of the rooms involved.
At the Spreckels mansion, the distance from the where the rope was tied to the bed and the railing was about 15 feet and 7.5 inches (before the bed moved 7.5 inches) and in the reenactment, I would say that the distance would be about 8 or 9 feet. The distance of the drop was 9 feet and 2 inches as opposed to 7 feet and that doesn’t take into consideration the differences in the center of gravity between RZ and the dimensions of the punching bag used in the reenactment. This means different rope lengths; 24.5 feet in the RZ case versus about 15 or 16 feet in the reenactment. (The longer the length of the rope, the more “strain energy” it is able to absorb.)
The shorter distance also changed some angles. In the screen shot below you will see that the rope makes an angle of about 20 degrees from the bedpost up toward the balcony.
This would be consistent with my guess of an approximate 8 foot distance from the bed to the rail.
Mathematically, a right angle triangle with sides, 8 feet, 3 feet and 8.5 feet will have an angle of 20.5 degrees.
The crime scene had an angle of about 11 degrees.
This affects the amount of force required to move the bed by about 15% (However, because of the 11 degree contact between the closed door and the rope in the crime scene, as opposed to no such contact in the reenactment, the overall difference would be zero.)

Earlier I spoke of the coefficient of friction (COF) with respect to the rug. Unquestionably, the fact that the bed had sunk into the rug would mean that there would be a higher static coefficient of friction.
By way of comparison, the primary change that the reenactment tried to make in order to prove that the bed would move a significant distance was adding weight to increase the overall weight of the bed to 400 pounds in tests 2 and 3. This change would mean that 20% more force would be required to move the bed.
Because of the issues I’ve previously outlined, a change in the weight of the bed would help but in order to begin to approximate the force required, the overall weight needed would likely be as high as 550 pounds and that would be just to compensate for a static COF difference of 0.3 between rugs and the lack of an indentation from the bed “sinking in.”

IMO, the most accurate way to determine the feasibility of a 7.5 inch bed movement would be a reenactment at the crime scene with another rope of the precise type that was used.
The second best way would be a theoretical approach using physics and math with information that law enforcement could have obtained (if they were so inclined) with their own resources, and with respect to some of the more technical issues, with the help of consultants. This information would include:
The static and dynamic coefficient of friction between the bed and rug.
The dynamic coefficient of friction between the rail and rope
The dynamic coefficient of friction between the balcony door and rope.
The modulus of the rope.
The weight of the bed etc.
The least accurate, and unfortunately the one we are stuck with, is a theoretical approach using physics and math without knowing some of the crucial variables listed above.
I admire the time and effort that was put forth in undertaking the reenactment, but it’s unfortunate that they didn’t work with a technical consultant or engineer in order to more accurately simulate the incident.

 

[kittychi]

Courts don't usually accept a re-enactment as evidence unless it is full-scale and done by trained forensic examiners. Gore may not have wanted to spend taxpayer money when the conclusion was already pointing to suicide. Nothing prevented the Zahous from hiring their own expert.

JMO

BBM...except that they were blocked at every attempt to get into the mansion so they could do just that.

 

[MyBelle]

BBM...except that they were blocked at every attempt to get into the mansion so they could do just that.

Not so, according to this link:

http://www.10news.com/news/shacknai-allows-zahau-family-to-conduct-mansion-investigation

 

[cynic]

Not so, according to this link:

http://www.10news.com/news/shacknai-allows-zahau-family-to-conduct-mansion-investigation

That needs to be read in light of the conditions that were set and outlined in the following story:
"However, we believe this inspection and any non-destructive testing should be conducted in cooperation with – and under the supervision of – the Sheriff's department so that there will be no problem or interference with law enforcement should they decide to do any further review of the matter," the letter continued.
http://www.cbs8.com/story/16318354/...inside-spreckels-mansion?clienttype=printable
The SDCSD denied the request for supervision and therefore effectively blocked access.
Caldwell told 10News on Wednesday: "We are not denying the Zahau family access. We don't have that authority -- the house is still owned by Jonah Shacknai. We are simply not going to accompany anyone through the property."

 

[Gilgamesh]

A LOT of things need to be read in light of the actual conditions of the situation. For example, saying that RZ killed herself because life as she knew it was over and the guilt was unbearable anyway....sounds plausible at first. But then, take a look at the facts. Everything from hopping around a room with hands and feet tied, gagged, no dust on the balcony, a scream for help, I could go on ad infinitum, THEN, it becomes LUDICROUS.
My take on some of the postings is this:

Several ( suicide posse) posters will make comments that sound plausible at face value. Upon further analysis those comments fall flat in the face of examination of actual facts. I'm not saying I am always right and they are always wrong. I just see this type of thing happening a lot lately.
My take on it is that the suicide posse may be either trying to sway public opinion for any newcomers who haven't followed the case or we may have some defense attorneys trying out their defense tactics.
JMO

 

[MaybeNotToday]

A LOT of things need to be read in light of the actual conditions of the situation. For example, saying that RZ killed herself because life as she knew it was over and the guilt was unbearable anyway....sounds plausible at first. But then, take a look at the facts. Everything from hopping around a room with hands and feet tied, gagged, no dust on the balcony, a scream for help, I could go on ad infinitum, THEN, it becomes LUDICROUS.
My take on some of the postings is this:

Several ( suicide posse) posters will make comments that sound plausible at face value. Upon further analysis those comments fall flat in the face of examination of actual facts. I'm not saying I am always right and they are always wrong. I just see this type of thing happening a lot lately.
My take on it is that the suicide posse may be either trying to sway public opinion for any newcomers who haven't followed the case or we may have some defense attorneys trying out their defense tactics.
JMO

Yes, that's it! I am a defense attorney. Can't you tell? And wth is a "suicide posse"? Should we all assume you are a "murder posse"? Prosecutors in training?

 

[Gilgamesh]

Yes, that's it! I am a defense attorney. Can't you tell? And wth is a "suicide posse"? Should we all assume you are a "murder posse"? Prosecutors in training?

I've been impressed lately that you have been so polite even when your opinion has been in the minority. I mean it.
Lets have a little chuckle together and move on.

 

[*Lash*]

Cynic, I hope the Zahau's read here. Your posts are very enlightening. Thank you!

 

[MyBelle]

That needs to be read in light of the conditions that were set and outlined in the following story:
"However, we believe this inspection and any non-destructive testing should be conducted in cooperation with – and under the supervision of – the Sheriff's department so that there will be no problem or interference with law enforcement should they decide to do any further review of the matter," the letter continued.
http://www.cbs8.com/story/16318354/...inside-spreckels-mansion?clienttype=printable
The SDCSD denied the request for supervision and therefore effectively blocked access.
Caldwell told 10News on Wednesday: "We are not denying the Zahau family access. We don't have that authority -- the house is still owned by Jonah Shacknai. We are simply not going to accompany anyone through the property."

The story makes it clear Jonah did not deny access to the Zahau experts. Dina's experts obtained access. Time to stop blaming others for their failure to get it done.

JMO

 

[MyBelle]

Yes, that's it! I am a defense attorney. Can't you tell? And wth is a "suicide posse"? Should we all assume you are a "murder posse"? Prosecutors in training?

Very good points! Apparently, the sheriff and ME are the leaders of the suicide posse.