Skull fracture question

[JMO8778]

I don't know about her making sure that she was dead, or not...because IMO...she thought that JB was already dead after the "bathroom blow", because of the convulsions and unconsciousness....and IMO...there is no way that she could have NOT had those two things. I do believe though....as you said...that she convinced herself that it was all just an accident.

when she talked about having the flashbacks of JB screaming,she sounds like she's outside herself,kwim? like she was on the outside looking in.
if it was Patsy and if it truly was no accident..then I think she went into a psychotic rage and did it.

 

[armywife210]

I keep looking at the photos of JonBenet's skull that are provided on acandyrose and I find it really difficult to get a feel for the orientation of it. Without being able to see the eye sockets and nose, or occipital bone, I can't tell if the images are from the side, from above or what. Does anyone know if there is a better diagram of her full skull w/fracture that makes the injury's location more clear.
Thank you.

ok, I told ya the wrong thing. I misread your question.... and I dont recall anything about the fracture!!! I am sure I have heard it, but I "left" this case for awhile as I was so busy, then came back to it.
Perhaps she was struck on the top back of the head with something, the fracture happened as she hit her head going down????
The thing is, it appears as though it IS on the top back rather than just the back... it would seem awkward to have a skull crushed on the top like that by the victim being shoved into something.... on the side, or on the back, yea... but the top. It appears to be more of a hard whack on the head due to anger/lost temper.
It would've been interesting to see what an in depth psych report on Patsy and John would have revealed as far as personality traits and possible mental problems.

 

[armywife210]

here is a site with diagrams of fracture.

http://members.fortunecity.com/webbsleuths/case/diagrams.html

 

[JMO8778]

ok, I told ya the wrong thing. I misread your question.... and I dont recall anything about the fracture!!! I am sure I have heard it, but I "left" this case for awhile as I was so busy, then came back to it.
Perhaps she was struck on the top back of the head with something, the fracture happened as she hit her head going down????
The thing is, it appears as though it IS on the top back rather than just the back... it would seem awkward to have a skull crushed on the top like that by the victim being shoved into something.... on the side, or on the back, yea... but the top. It appears to be more of a hard whack on the head due to anger/lost temper.
It would've been interesting to see what an in depth psych report on Patsy and John would have revealed as far as personality traits and possible mental problems.

that's what I think when I look at it...that it looks like a direct hit w/ an object,with intent to kill.The KISS theory...the simplest answer is usually the correct one.
yes, it could have been something else,more than one thing maybe,and an accident?who knows,but I do keep coming back to the remarks made by Mark Fuhrman, that 'it was no accident..in fact,it was quite intentional'.

 

[Ames]

that's what I think when I look at it...that it looks like a direct hit w/ an object,with intent to kill.The KISS theory...the simplest answer is usually the correct one.
yes, it could have been something else,more than one thing maybe,and an accident?who knows,but I do keep coming back to the remarks made by Mark Fuhrman, that 'it was no accident..in fact,it was quite intentional'.

So are you thinking that Patsy flew into a psycotic (is that spelled right?) rage, and maybe killed JB on purpose? Could be...but why?

 

[JMO8778]

So are you thinking that Patsy flew into a psycotic (is that spelled right?) rage, and maybe killed JB on purpose? Could be...but why?

like SD said,a couple of reasons could be..maybe snow white syndrome..and or maybe she'd taken JB as far as she could and being the mother of a dead beauty queen was the best she figured she could do now..
I just wonder if we're being too nice here...and being fooled just like the GJ was...they thought no parent could have done this..we think a parent could have,only it was an accident,not intentional.maybe she meant to at the time,but later had regrets.maybe not.Barbara Fernie said she didn't seem to be grieving.It makes you wonder.Patsy didn't seem to be to 'together' near the end of JB's life...her having JB looking like a 21 yo in the pageants...the way she dressed like JK at her funeral,doing the same things,kneeling at the coffin..yelling the Lazarus line when JR 'found' her...corporal cleaning...these aren't indications of someone who's all there and normal,kwim?

 

[BOESP]

What has always baffled me is that this horrific injury did not damage JonBenet's outer scalp.

Yes, it is odd, especially if she was struck with something with an edge to it, like the flashlight or golf club as suggested in various theories. The lack of a laceration is one clue that causes me to think there were two simultaneous blows since one striking blow with either of the above instruments would surely have left a laceration. I suppose her hair could have protected her but if so the two pony tails seem to expose that area rather than pad it, which might suggest the pony tails were placed their after the deed.

Another poster whose name I can't recall (maybe Solace) said their thought was the two pony tails were used to hold the two sections of the skull together. That whoever did this could tell the head was split in two and pulled up the hair and bound it. It sounds more reasonable than anything I can think up. It seems important in analyzing the skull injury, since Patsy said JonBenet didn't go to bed with her hair fixed in those two pony tails.

 

[BOESP]

Thanks so much for the excellent information, UKGuy. I've snipped and
commented below in red. Appreciate your help and interest, by the way.

BOESP,

One of the most important features of her head injury is that it is a
depressed fracture, these are extremely rare in children, so rare one book
I have: the Handbook of Fractures, 3rd Edition in its section titled Pediatric
Fractures and Dislocations has no entry for a head injury.

It's rare because of built-in survival mechanisms -- pliable skulls and not
fully formed suture lines, small body size, and other factors. Obviously, it
can occur, as we know.

Which giving some consideration to the contusions on JonBenet's head
(internally, and externally) and face might suggest she was hit more than
once?

That is my opinion based on my study of information available to the public.
It seems scientifically impossible for the internal and external damage to
occur with only one striking blow from an instrument, if for no other reason
than physics.

It appears JonBenet was struck from behind with a blunt instrument, she
may have been lying down, and more than one blow may have been
rendered, her head injury is severe and is usually found at vehicle road
accidents, it is exremely rare for this type of head injury to be presented at
ER.

I would agree except the length of the fracture is problematic. If someone
hit her with an object small enough to leave an approximate 1.75 x .75
depression, the fracture wouldn't seemingly run nearly to her eye ridge. If
the force was extremely great, it also seems there would be more damage
to the underlying brain tissue. The size of the area of bleeding might be
caused by seepage. I haven't fully thought that out yet.


.

 

[JMO8778]

does anyone know the size and length of the flashlight found wiped off? b/c those aren't regular flashlights...they're called maglites.they come in different sizes, but most have long metal handles and you could run over them with a car and not do any damage to them...they're that tough.my thought is that if the handle was long enough,could it cause that length of fracture,or at least a good start of one?

 

[armywife210]

Yes, it is odd, especially if she was struck with something with an edge to it, like the flashlight or golf club as suggested in various theories. The lack of a laceration is one clue that causes me to think there were two simultaneous blows since one striking blow with either of the above instruments would surely have left a laceration. I suppose her hair could have protected her but if so the two pony tails seem to expose that area rather than pad it, which might suggest the pony tails were placed their after the deed.

Another poster whose name I can't recall (maybe Solace) said their thought was the two pony tails were used to hold the two sections of the skull together. That whoever did this could tell the head was split in two and pulled up the hair and bound it. It sounds more reasonable than anything I can think up. It seems important in analyzing the skull injury, since Patsy said JonBenet didn't go to bed with her hair fixed in those two pony tails.

I don't know whethere or not this applies to the particular flashlight found in the house, but many flashlights have rubber exterior. I think all of ours do, for some reason. And nearly all homes have flashlights kept in, or very near to, childrens rooms to help them feel safe during a storm/power failure.
The two pony tails may not have been used TO HOLD her head together... but maybe to mask the obvious. This may have been why "whomever" might have thought Jonbenet was dead already... blood or discharge might have been coming from her nose or ears, whether or not she convulsed, then stopped and didn't respond. Someone went to help her in an "Oh My Gawd, I didn't mean to do it" moment... and saw that her head was lopsided.
Honestly, I think Patsy and John were VERY concerned about appearance to the outside world (especially Patsy). This is demonstrated in the general cleanliness of the home. The further you went into the home, the messier it got. Also, Jonbenet was always looking adorable (in some people's eyes), yet her cleanliness wasn't as important. Same goes for Patsy. As a side note, this is why I find it highly unlikely that Patsy would have worn that outfit two days in a row even if she HAD washed it! If you think about it, there are a lot of people who are like this. They want to appear to be one thing, yet inside they are totally something else. This goes with every aspect of their lives. People who find outward beauty and talent the most important thing aren't very happy people.
On top of this trait, I think that Patsy had a lot of mental health disorders. I don't think she possessed inner self control. Always concerned with her appearance, she trained herself from a young age to keep it below the surface, but just barely, because "APPEARANCE is everything".
I also think that she possessed the ability to distance herself.
I wonder how severe her many menal health disorders were and where they originated.

 

[JMO8778]

here's the product line,notice how long the handles are...if she was hit on a suture line with a long handle maglite,and her skull of course not being as hard as an adults...I wonder if that could have caused it:

http://www.maglite.com/productline.asp

 

[BOESP]

rashomon,

Guide To Forensic Pathology by Jay Dix, offers:

So was JonBenet wearing something on her head, did her killer place something e.g. a pillow over her head, prior to bludgeoning her?


.

I haven't read anything that made me think she was wearing anything on her head or that anything was placed on her head. There would be fibers from a pillow, or other padding, embedded in the wound I would think.

 

[BOESP]

I wonder that,too.What if she was hit with an object,like the flashlight,and then(according to what seems to be a thumbprint on her neck,if it is indeed one) pushed into the edge of something,compounding the fracture? and all of this occurs in a matter of moments?
or what if she was struck w the flashlight,or some similar object (could the golf clubs the JR wanted back so badly figure in here?),but her head was cushioned by a pillow? and then if she was in her bed,her head slammed against the headboard?Patsy did ask if there was blood on the curtains,and there was blood on her pillow,apparently.
thing is...IF it was indeed JB that was heard screaming..did it come from the basement,and was she killed there instead of in her room? how would that factor in?

I don't know what to think about Melody Stanton's report about hearing a scream. I'm not sure I could determine a woman's scream from a child's scream, but maybe so.

You bring up good questions. I doubt her head was cushioned but the length of the fracture and the accompanying bleeding under the scalp seems to suggest to me that there was more than one blow. Something with pressure maybe.

I wish we knew what type flooring was in the basement and the kitchen, and JonBenet's bathroom. Since Patsy says JonBenet was in bed, it seems to me the event had to have happened upstairs. I don't see how all that commotion could go on and not disturb someone enough to wonder about it. If it happened downstairs, say before JonBenet went to bed, there are likely several possibilities.

I need to study the search warrant lists again!

 

[BOESP]

here is a site with diagrams of fracture.

http://members.fortunecity.com/webbsleuths/case/diagrams.html

Thanks, armywife210! That was new info for me. I wish they'd been drawn on a child-scale form. The head drawing didn't look proportional when I compared it to one of the autopsy photos but it does give an idea.

Thanks again and thanks to your hubby too! We are a "Support Our Troops Household."

 

[DeeDee249]

I seem to recall that Dr.Cyril Wecht did some experiments using a heavy flashlight and some other items, to try to recreate the displacement fracture in JBR's skull. I think only the heavy flashlight gave the same results. I think he said the rubberized coating prevented the skin from tearing also.

 

[BOESP]

here's the product line,notice how long the handles are...if she was hit on a suture line with a long handle maglite,and her skull of course not being as hard as an adults...I wonder if that could have caused it:

http://www.maglite.com/productline.asp

I can't say for sure about JonBenet specifically, but children usually have a more pliable or resilient bone structure. It's built-in protection to help them survive childhood. I can see where if, maybe, a heavy-duty maglite was the weapon the rubber padding could have helped prevent a laceration at the depression. Regardless, I don't think one striking blow would have made an 8.5 inch fracture and only a 1.75 x .50 depression, unless it was rubberized. Also, if someone was swinging one of those things, a lot of the energy would dissipate in various ways, some traveling back up the arm of the assailant absorbing some of the shock waves, the sutures in the skull dispersing some of the energy, and other factors. I just don't see how that fracture got there with one fell blow. A dull blow by falling on something could also do it.

 

[armywife210]

Thanks, armywife210! That was new info for me. I wish they'd been drawn on a child-scale form. The head drawing didn't look proportional when I compared it to one of the autopsy photos but it does give an idea.

Thanks again and thanks to your hubby too! We are a "Support Our Troops Household."

yea, they weren't very proportionate but it's the best I could find, and atleast it showed the general area of the wound.
Thanks also for your heartwarming words. This is a wonderful country, isn't it? I cannot imagine living in a suppressed world full of fear and domination. I look at my two gorgeous girls (12 and 7) and thank God for this country every day!

Ok, maglites.... it doesn't appear that they have a rubber shell.. but rather an aluminum alloy casing. However, because there isn't a sharp edge or even a corner on it, I wouldn't expect it to necessarily break the skin. Looking at the photo of the skull and the xray, I don't see anything that says that it couldn't have been more than one hit... except that every hit would have to be in that very small area of the back top of the head... I say that because the point of impact is going to take the biggest blow... and the crack takes off from the missing skull part.... there are not two or three seperate wounds. However she could have been struck twice in that area, I could see that.

 

[armywife210]

I can't say for sure about JonBenet specifically, but children usually have a more pliable or resilient bone structure. It's built-in protection to help them survive childhood. I can see where if, maybe, a heavy-duty maglite was the weapon the rubber padding could have helped prevent a laceration at the depression. Regardless, I don't think one striking blow would have made an 8.5 inch fracture and only a 1.75 x .50 depression, unless it was rubberized. Also, if someone was swinging one of those things, a lot of the energy would dissipate in various ways, some traveling back up the arm of the assailant absorbing some of the shock waves, the sutures in the skull dispersing some of the energy, and other factors. I just don't see how that fracture got there with one fell blow. A dull blow by falling on something could also do it.

This is what I was just thinking of.... think of a patch of ice. You hit it in one place, and you have the "bash" and then you have a "trail" that leads out from it, but is only a single line crack. It doesn't take the impact of the blow, but it loses it's structure because of the blow, resulting in a "tail" crack. Just thoughts.

 

[UKGuy]

Thanks so much for the excellent information, UKGuy. I've snipped and
commented below in red. Appreciate your help and interest, by the way.

BOESP,
You are welcome.

It appears JonBenet was struck from behind with a blunt instrument, she
may have been lying down, and more than one blow may have been
rendered, her head injury is severe and is usually found at vehicle road
accidents, it is exremely rare for this type of head injury to be presented at
ER.

I would agree except the length of the fracture is problematic. If someone
hit her with an object small enough to leave an approximate 1.75 x .75
depression, the fracture wouldn't seemingly run nearly to her eye ridge. If
the force was extremely great, it also seems there would be more damage
to the underlying brain tissue. The size of the area of bleeding might be
caused by seepage. I haven't fully thought that out yet.

It was discovered during experiments on cadavers that skull fractures do not always follow the classical theory that fracture lines radiate outwards from the site of the blow. What was shown was that lines of force may radiate out from the site of a blow, but they do not all cause fractures, some do, crucially some when they hit a boundary, say an eye socket, then radiate backwards or sideways, causing further fractures. So that long fracture line apparently stopping where it does may be explained in this manner?

What the discussion underlines is just how much force was employed in causing JonBenet's head injury, it far exceeds the force found in your average domestic accident.


.
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[UKGuy]

I haven't read anything that made me think she was wearing anything on her head or that anything was placed on her head. There would be fibers from a pillow, or other padding, embedded in the wound I would think.

BOESP,

There was no external lacerations or wound, it was invisible to the naked eye and only visible during an internal autopsy.


JonBenet's asymmetric pigtails may have some part to play here?


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