yeah definitely true. just makes me so ill it's hard to comprehend.
South Hadley,MA Phoebe Prince 15 kills self over bullying #2
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yeah definitely true. just makes me so ill it's hard to comprehend.
Paladine
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We wanted clearer images of the library...this quote...was the meeting in the SHHS library?
http://www.wwlp.com/dpp/news/local/heated-south-hadley-speak-out
Paladine
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There is a person that wants to join. This is someone who would be a thoughtful contributor, imo. He said he joined but has been able to post, yet. He is asking if there a waiting period, mods?
ETA: I sent him this link to keep an eye open for an answer...
ETA: I sent him this link to keep an eye open for an answer...
Paladine
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this link has some interesting theorys...
http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?topic=24&post=101&uid=106256199412197#post101
http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?topic=24&post=101&uid=106256199412197#post101
Paladine
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POLL: "Bullying Is A Crime To Canadians And Americans"
http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/view/35367/bullying_is_a_crime_for_canadians_and_americans
Hello all, I am new to to this site and would like to interject my questions and theories on this topic. First I would like to thank Paladine for making me aware of this site and helping me with the moderators so I can post. There is a link in #751 posted above to a FB topic that I started raising questions about the circumstances of Phoebe's death. I will basically copy and paste only my posts below. Please keep in mind there are some responses to other people in the thread in there that may be irrelevant to this discussion, and there may be things that are redundant to this forum as they may have already been stated. I just don't have the time to sift through 31 pages of this thread and make all the necessary changes or re-write it all together. I would also like to add that they are a little lengthy, so my apologies in advance. I was merely trying to articulate my point as well as I could given the reporting involved. Here's the first one:
"I am totally disgusted by this and other bully related suicides. These kids deserve the full punishment we can offer in whatever manner. But I have some lingering questions that I have not seen addressed or answered. Grant it I obviously don't have all the facts in the case but here goes: 1) Was it really a suicide? A study a few years back showed that females will typically try to overdose or cut their wrists (to preserve their appearance, yes a real study) Plus why would she hang herself there for her parents to find her in that horrific way (a real hanging is not as mild looking as shown in movies, it's actually pretty grotesque especially if it's a jump) 2) She was texting her friend 2 hours before her "suicide", which yes I know, most people who commit suicide don't give any indication prior to their act. It just seems strange having a 2 hour window in which anything could have happened. 3) Was there a suicide note? I haven't heard any mention, but could have just missed it. If there wasn't, doesn't it seem strange that she wouldn't have left a goodbye letter and an apology to her family/ friend. 4) Was a "rape kit" performed on her body? It seems like the results would have been relevant. 5) Her suicide was only 3 months from entering the school, most of the other suicides had histories of bullying for much longer. I am only raising these questions because if so far they have not been addressed, then it's possible one or more of these kids could be guilty of murder. So far these kids have shown no remorse for her death so I don't think it's too far a stretch to include murder. Plus with all the other "cover ups" already taking place I don't think it's too far a stretch to say that a small town is willing to cover up the murder of a 15 year old Irish immigrant by a bunch of "privileged" or "popular" students, especially in Massachusetts, the State of "Social Acceptance, Tolerance, and Social Justice". Maybe I'm just trying to make sense out of the senseless, and I know kids do commit suicide from bullying, but in this case, with what I've read, it doesn't add up.
Whether it was a suicide or not, bullying needs to be addressed more harshly than it has been in the past. If you look at most of the school shootings over the past 15 years, you can clearly see a pattern of increased bullying. I have no idea why people have buried their heads in the sand for so long. perhaps it's because the real bullies are the popular elite class in the school? Or perhaps the schools don't want the reputation of their precious little jocks being pulled off the team before the big game. After all, schools are vying for the chance to say that a pro athlete came from their town. If we really want to put an end to this then we as adults need to be more vigilant with the school systems, and in our neighborhoods. I don't have kids and probably never will, but if I see some kid being beaten in my neighborhood, you're damn right I'm gonna do something about it. I do have a nephew, and if I ever find out he is bullied, there will be hell to pay whether in or out of school, and if he turns out to be the bully, I'll whip his *advertiser censored* personally. Symbolic gestures on Facebook are nice, but get out there and do something. I'm not religious but this expression rings true: " The only thing evil needs to succeed is for good people to stand by and do nothing" Oh in case anyone was wondering, yes I was bullied and it still affects me 15 years later..thanks for a ruined life douchebags!!"
"I am totally disgusted by this and other bully related suicides. These kids deserve the full punishment we can offer in whatever manner. But I have some lingering questions that I have not seen addressed or answered. Grant it I obviously don't have all the facts in the case but here goes: 1) Was it really a suicide? A study a few years back showed that females will typically try to overdose or cut their wrists (to preserve their appearance, yes a real study) Plus why would she hang herself there for her parents to find her in that horrific way (a real hanging is not as mild looking as shown in movies, it's actually pretty grotesque especially if it's a jump) 2) She was texting her friend 2 hours before her "suicide", which yes I know, most people who commit suicide don't give any indication prior to their act. It just seems strange having a 2 hour window in which anything could have happened. 3) Was there a suicide note? I haven't heard any mention, but could have just missed it. If there wasn't, doesn't it seem strange that she wouldn't have left a goodbye letter and an apology to her family/ friend. 4) Was a "rape kit" performed on her body? It seems like the results would have been relevant. 5) Her suicide was only 3 months from entering the school, most of the other suicides had histories of bullying for much longer. I am only raising these questions because if so far they have not been addressed, then it's possible one or more of these kids could be guilty of murder. So far these kids have shown no remorse for her death so I don't think it's too far a stretch to include murder. Plus with all the other "cover ups" already taking place I don't think it's too far a stretch to say that a small town is willing to cover up the murder of a 15 year old Irish immigrant by a bunch of "privileged" or "popular" students, especially in Massachusetts, the State of "Social Acceptance, Tolerance, and Social Justice". Maybe I'm just trying to make sense out of the senseless, and I know kids do commit suicide from bullying, but in this case, with what I've read, it doesn't add up.
Whether it was a suicide or not, bullying needs to be addressed more harshly than it has been in the past. If you look at most of the school shootings over the past 15 years, you can clearly see a pattern of increased bullying. I have no idea why people have buried their heads in the sand for so long. perhaps it's because the real bullies are the popular elite class in the school? Or perhaps the schools don't want the reputation of their precious little jocks being pulled off the team before the big game. After all, schools are vying for the chance to say that a pro athlete came from their town. If we really want to put an end to this then we as adults need to be more vigilant with the school systems, and in our neighborhoods. I don't have kids and probably never will, but if I see some kid being beaten in my neighborhood, you're damn right I'm gonna do something about it. I do have a nephew, and if I ever find out he is bullied, there will be hell to pay whether in or out of school, and if he turns out to be the bully, I'll whip his *advertiser censored* personally. Symbolic gestures on Facebook are nice, but get out there and do something. I'm not religious but this expression rings true: " The only thing evil needs to succeed is for good people to stand by and do nothing" Oh in case anyone was wondering, yes I was bullied and it still affects me 15 years later..thanks for a ruined life douchebags!!"
OK here's post #2, and again please keep in mind it is in the context of the other thread but most of it is still pertinent here. Oh one more thing, I did go through this one quickly to edit out any names from FB and replace with initials for their privacy:
"Wow, I had no Idea my crazy little post would have gotten so much attention. For a minute I thought everyone would think of me as some crazy conspiracy theorist. I'm not, but I am a very critical thinker and I take very little at face value. But anywho to my point(s)
"SL" , I have to say you are very articulate in your argument against my theory and I do appreciate the level of thought you have put into it. I will admit that I had to read your posts really fast and may have missed some of your points, but I do believe that I can blow holes in your theory. the first thing is the time frame, according to an article I read citing the documents involved in the case, it was closer to 2 hours prior to her death that the last text was sent. here is a quote "According to the documents, Prince was crying as she walked home. Investigators said she exchanged several text messages with a friend about two hours before her death, in which she discussed the verbal abuse she had received that day and the ongoing taunts." Another note is from looking at the pics of her home it seems to be an awkward area to hang yourself unless you're a jumper, which I see as highly doubtful if she was hanging by a scarf. If she did chose to asphyxiate herself, why do it outside in the middle of January?
The use of the word "stairwell" can be used loosely, and judging by the layout of the house and the position of the windows, I am assuming that there is not one inside, at least not at the rear of the house, as is the one that is clearly visible, although revisiting one of the more distant pics shows there may be one on the other side but it's too grainy to tell. Now to quote something you posted " The most GLARING fact that supports the theory of impulse, NO "forethought" is that those who would know...her family primarily, secondarily people in Fanore Ireland who have known Phoebe all her life say without exception that there is no way she would have created a circumstance within which Lauren her little sister would have found her or any other family member for that matter." If that is the case then again it makes no sense, even in a moment of irrationality, for her to hang herself in that area. Other points you said about the stairwell that we can ascertain from the pics: It's highly visible but for only a brief moment, not enough to catch the corner of someone's eye driving by. I also notice a high fence and wonder about the orientation of the person taking the photo, were they elevated more than normal perhaps to get a better view compared to the average driver?
Now some other things to think about, the scarf that she hung with was supposedly the one that she had worn all day. I don't think it's too much to assume that one of the girls had fantasized on more than one occasion of strangling her with it. It also makes a nice weapon of opportunity, especially if you don't have a weapon on you and are not familiar enough with the layout of her house to find one. Also "SW" brought up a great point about her phone which further destroys the suicide theory, whether quick or slow. I see that as more evidence of something far more nefarious rather than a "thoughtful" suicide. After all, if she had enough time to think about plugging the phone in, then why not find something better than a scarf to hang herself with, or perhaps a nicer method? Also if she had enough time to think about her decision to end her life, then why the placement? And why not write a quick letter, after all she was a writer?
Now to correct your point about the harassment shortly before her death, it was witnessed at her school by a staff member (I'm referring to the drive by can incident) If I am incorrect then that actually strengthens my theory because it puts them closer to the scene. Also, even though I do agree with what you said about HS girls trying to get popular, I heard somewhere that the sex incident may have been more of a form of extortion, than her trying to gain popularity. Lets face it, none of the girls involved were anything to write home about, and she was far prettier than any of them. My understanding is one of the guys basically said "If you do me, I'll keep them off your back" (paraphrasing of course) Unfortunately the reporting of her "relationship" with that jock douchebag is below par.
Now as far as the personality of these kids, lets face is, kids are stupid but they are becoming increasingly clever. This happened to me one time when I was young: I was dating the younger sister of an older bully, and one night he came to my house to "discuss" things. When he showed up he had someone who I though was a friend of mine with him, and lured me outside assuring me we were just gonna "talk about things". We did talk for a short while, then out of nowhere he sucker punched me, and a full fledged fight was on. Fortunately I ended up kicking his *advertiser censored* (a proud moment in my life) But I am trying to illustrate how she could have been lured into letting them in the house of at least opening the door. One of the guys could have played "Mr Nice guy" at the door while the girls were waiting nearby to storm her (for instance).
So instead of rambling on about details, I'll give another version of what could have happened. Somewhere between 2:00 and 2:30, school lets out. It's high school, so probably closer to 2:00. Between 2:05 and 2:15, the can incident occurs. Between 2:15 and 2:48 She's texting with her friend. From here I cannot place time stamps, but sometime shortly after she gets home she plugs in her phone glad that she's finally "safe" Meanwhile these kids can see that there are no neighbors around (probably at work) so they make their move. Then she gets a knock on her door, and it's one of them faking sorrow about how they treated her that day, and they would like to talk about it. She hesitantly agrees, opens the door, hoping that this will be the end of her misery. At that point he, she, or they are invited in, at which point on of the heavier girls overpowers her and grabs her scarf (Phoebe after all is tiny) After about 15-20 seconds Phoebe goes limp, and now they panic. Most likely it was only a blood choke, and she was merely unconscious, but they didn't know that. So in a panic, someone suggests to make it look like she hung herself, after all who would believe that she slowly suffocated herself with a scarf near ground level, so they string her up with the very scarf they strangulated her with, in the outdoor stairwell. If it was near 4:00 and cloudy that day it would have been pretty dark out, especially if it was snowing or perhaps since there was a group of them, there was a "lookout" to let them know when there were no vehicles coming. And what better way to humiliate her than to put her body facing the street for all to see as if to make a statement. This all could have happened in less than 10 minutes which I'm sure felt like an eternity to them. Then they all agree never to mention what happened, and if questioned to just shrug it off as "some *advertiser censored* who killed herself" rather than face more humiliation (as seen by their blatant disregard for her death). I am not stating any of this as fact, but an alternative that still fits many of the facts in the case. The only thing I can hope is that if was murder, that the DA is strategically lining them up to break that bond by only charging them with harassment so he can interrogate them. "SW", perhaps you could expound on that a bit more. Well, running out of time here, there's more to my theory, but I guess you all get what I'm saying. And again, even if they did not kill her personally, they should still be charged and fully punished for her death. They did after all tell her to kill herself, and it's no different than telling a "jumper" to jump. I believe in most places it's illegal to do so. Oh, and my apologies for any spelling/ grammar errors, not enough time to proof read. Gotta go."
"Wow, I had no Idea my crazy little post would have gotten so much attention. For a minute I thought everyone would think of me as some crazy conspiracy theorist. I'm not, but I am a very critical thinker and I take very little at face value. But anywho to my point(s)
"SL" , I have to say you are very articulate in your argument against my theory and I do appreciate the level of thought you have put into it. I will admit that I had to read your posts really fast and may have missed some of your points, but I do believe that I can blow holes in your theory. the first thing is the time frame, according to an article I read citing the documents involved in the case, it was closer to 2 hours prior to her death that the last text was sent. here is a quote "According to the documents, Prince was crying as she walked home. Investigators said she exchanged several text messages with a friend about two hours before her death, in which she discussed the verbal abuse she had received that day and the ongoing taunts." Another note is from looking at the pics of her home it seems to be an awkward area to hang yourself unless you're a jumper, which I see as highly doubtful if she was hanging by a scarf. If she did chose to asphyxiate herself, why do it outside in the middle of January?
The use of the word "stairwell" can be used loosely, and judging by the layout of the house and the position of the windows, I am assuming that there is not one inside, at least not at the rear of the house, as is the one that is clearly visible, although revisiting one of the more distant pics shows there may be one on the other side but it's too grainy to tell. Now to quote something you posted " The most GLARING fact that supports the theory of impulse, NO "forethought" is that those who would know...her family primarily, secondarily people in Fanore Ireland who have known Phoebe all her life say without exception that there is no way she would have created a circumstance within which Lauren her little sister would have found her or any other family member for that matter." If that is the case then again it makes no sense, even in a moment of irrationality, for her to hang herself in that area. Other points you said about the stairwell that we can ascertain from the pics: It's highly visible but for only a brief moment, not enough to catch the corner of someone's eye driving by. I also notice a high fence and wonder about the orientation of the person taking the photo, were they elevated more than normal perhaps to get a better view compared to the average driver?
Now some other things to think about, the scarf that she hung with was supposedly the one that she had worn all day. I don't think it's too much to assume that one of the girls had fantasized on more than one occasion of strangling her with it. It also makes a nice weapon of opportunity, especially if you don't have a weapon on you and are not familiar enough with the layout of her house to find one. Also "SW" brought up a great point about her phone which further destroys the suicide theory, whether quick or slow. I see that as more evidence of something far more nefarious rather than a "thoughtful" suicide. After all, if she had enough time to think about plugging the phone in, then why not find something better than a scarf to hang herself with, or perhaps a nicer method? Also if she had enough time to think about her decision to end her life, then why the placement? And why not write a quick letter, after all she was a writer?
Now to correct your point about the harassment shortly before her death, it was witnessed at her school by a staff member (I'm referring to the drive by can incident) If I am incorrect then that actually strengthens my theory because it puts them closer to the scene. Also, even though I do agree with what you said about HS girls trying to get popular, I heard somewhere that the sex incident may have been more of a form of extortion, than her trying to gain popularity. Lets face it, none of the girls involved were anything to write home about, and she was far prettier than any of them. My understanding is one of the guys basically said "If you do me, I'll keep them off your back" (paraphrasing of course) Unfortunately the reporting of her "relationship" with that jock douchebag is below par.
Now as far as the personality of these kids, lets face is, kids are stupid but they are becoming increasingly clever. This happened to me one time when I was young: I was dating the younger sister of an older bully, and one night he came to my house to "discuss" things. When he showed up he had someone who I though was a friend of mine with him, and lured me outside assuring me we were just gonna "talk about things". We did talk for a short while, then out of nowhere he sucker punched me, and a full fledged fight was on. Fortunately I ended up kicking his *advertiser censored* (a proud moment in my life) But I am trying to illustrate how she could have been lured into letting them in the house of at least opening the door. One of the guys could have played "Mr Nice guy" at the door while the girls were waiting nearby to storm her (for instance).
So instead of rambling on about details, I'll give another version of what could have happened. Somewhere between 2:00 and 2:30, school lets out. It's high school, so probably closer to 2:00. Between 2:05 and 2:15, the can incident occurs. Between 2:15 and 2:48 She's texting with her friend. From here I cannot place time stamps, but sometime shortly after she gets home she plugs in her phone glad that she's finally "safe" Meanwhile these kids can see that there are no neighbors around (probably at work) so they make their move. Then she gets a knock on her door, and it's one of them faking sorrow about how they treated her that day, and they would like to talk about it. She hesitantly agrees, opens the door, hoping that this will be the end of her misery. At that point he, she, or they are invited in, at which point on of the heavier girls overpowers her and grabs her scarf (Phoebe after all is tiny) After about 15-20 seconds Phoebe goes limp, and now they panic. Most likely it was only a blood choke, and she was merely unconscious, but they didn't know that. So in a panic, someone suggests to make it look like she hung herself, after all who would believe that she slowly suffocated herself with a scarf near ground level, so they string her up with the very scarf they strangulated her with, in the outdoor stairwell. If it was near 4:00 and cloudy that day it would have been pretty dark out, especially if it was snowing or perhaps since there was a group of them, there was a "lookout" to let them know when there were no vehicles coming. And what better way to humiliate her than to put her body facing the street for all to see as if to make a statement. This all could have happened in less than 10 minutes which I'm sure felt like an eternity to them. Then they all agree never to mention what happened, and if questioned to just shrug it off as "some *advertiser censored* who killed herself" rather than face more humiliation (as seen by their blatant disregard for her death). I am not stating any of this as fact, but an alternative that still fits many of the facts in the case. The only thing I can hope is that if was murder, that the DA is strategically lining them up to break that bond by only charging them with harassment so he can interrogate them. "SW", perhaps you could expound on that a bit more. Well, running out of time here, there's more to my theory, but I guess you all get what I'm saying. And again, even if they did not kill her personally, they should still be charged and fully punished for her death. They did after all tell her to kill herself, and it's no different than telling a "jumper" to jump. I believe in most places it's illegal to do so. Oh, and my apologies for any spelling/ grammar errors, not enough time to proof read. Gotta go."
And here's the final one. The second half of it are responses to to other posters but again still pertinent to the discussion. I'll try to edit this one a little more to remove the irrelevant:
"Just wanted to add that I just read an article yesterday where it said the scarf was given to her by her sister this past Christmas. January 14th isn't that far from Christmas, so surely she didn't forget who gave her the scarf and why would she hang herself with it? Plus how long is the average scarf? 4ft? 6 ft maybe? You see, the keyword is hung and not asphyxiated. Was the scarf long enough to create a simple noose, then enough to tie it to a sturdy object, and have enough slack for her to maneuver? The other thing to consider about the scarf is it's thickness. It would tie differently than a rope for instance and take up more slack. Would she have known how to tie a knot strong enough to sustain her? Again, I am only raising question for things that I have not seen reported, and am not trying to be morbid about it. Unfortunately, when questioning this sort of thing we must think of reality and not what is seen on TV or in movies. Hanging whether swing or jump is pretty gross and disfiguring. Another question would be, if the scarf was short enough, and it was a swing hanging, didn't she have the natural preservation reflex to grab onto something and hold or pull herself up?
Oh, and just wanted to reply to a few things and my apologies for not doing it sooner.
First, I'm kind of sad to see "SL"'s posts disappear. I felt he had a lot of good arguments even though he was fully fixated on the suicide notion. I again am not fully advocating it was a murder, but there are too many holes in the suicide theory.
"SP", I would love to email my theory to the prosecutors, but one of only a few things would happen: 1 They would brush me off as some crazy online conspiracy theorist (which I am not) 2 They would be insulted that they didn't think of it first and wouldn't bother pursuing it because it would show their ineptness as small town law enforcement. Or 3, They're already in on the cover-up, and if that sounds too far fetched you need look no further than the Duke Lacrosse Players case. I guess there's a 4th possibility that I kind of alluded to in my last post is that there is still an "ongoing" investigation, and perhaps they too have some doubts of her suicide and need these kids to crack under pressure. I am however thinking about sending my questions to a certain news outlet to see if they can look into it.
"MD", I do agree that even if it's a suicide in the literal sense that those kids are still guilty of murder in some degree.
"LS", I just wanted to address another possibility on the topic of her having sex with either or bot of the guys. As I said earlier there were some reports that if they did have sex it may have been coercive (getting her to have sex with them so they would get the girls off her back) OR a sexual act may not have happened. It will be real hard to prove or disprove a sexual act occurred, but the possibility remains that if one of the guys dated her and was asked by a friend if he "hit it", surely he would respond yes, especially given the degree of her attractiveness compared to the other 3. So it's possible that she didn't have sex, but the guy(s) still bragged anyways to save face to their friends."
"Just wanted to add that I just read an article yesterday where it said the scarf was given to her by her sister this past Christmas. January 14th isn't that far from Christmas, so surely she didn't forget who gave her the scarf and why would she hang herself with it? Plus how long is the average scarf? 4ft? 6 ft maybe? You see, the keyword is hung and not asphyxiated. Was the scarf long enough to create a simple noose, then enough to tie it to a sturdy object, and have enough slack for her to maneuver? The other thing to consider about the scarf is it's thickness. It would tie differently than a rope for instance and take up more slack. Would she have known how to tie a knot strong enough to sustain her? Again, I am only raising question for things that I have not seen reported, and am not trying to be morbid about it. Unfortunately, when questioning this sort of thing we must think of reality and not what is seen on TV or in movies. Hanging whether swing or jump is pretty gross and disfiguring. Another question would be, if the scarf was short enough, and it was a swing hanging, didn't she have the natural preservation reflex to grab onto something and hold or pull herself up?
Oh, and just wanted to reply to a few things and my apologies for not doing it sooner.
First, I'm kind of sad to see "SL"'s posts disappear. I felt he had a lot of good arguments even though he was fully fixated on the suicide notion. I again am not fully advocating it was a murder, but there are too many holes in the suicide theory.
"SP", I would love to email my theory to the prosecutors, but one of only a few things would happen: 1 They would brush me off as some crazy online conspiracy theorist (which I am not) 2 They would be insulted that they didn't think of it first and wouldn't bother pursuing it because it would show their ineptness as small town law enforcement. Or 3, They're already in on the cover-up, and if that sounds too far fetched you need look no further than the Duke Lacrosse Players case. I guess there's a 4th possibility that I kind of alluded to in my last post is that there is still an "ongoing" investigation, and perhaps they too have some doubts of her suicide and need these kids to crack under pressure. I am however thinking about sending my questions to a certain news outlet to see if they can look into it.
"MD", I do agree that even if it's a suicide in the literal sense that those kids are still guilty of murder in some degree.
"LS", I just wanted to address another possibility on the topic of her having sex with either or bot of the guys. As I said earlier there were some reports that if they did have sex it may have been coercive (getting her to have sex with them so they would get the girls off her back) OR a sexual act may not have happened. It will be real hard to prove or disprove a sexual act occurred, but the possibility remains that if one of the guys dated her and was asked by a friend if he "hit it", surely he would respond yes, especially given the degree of her attractiveness compared to the other 3. So it's possible that she didn't have sex, but the guy(s) still bragged anyways to save face to their friends."
Hi Kris - I've seen your posts about this on the discussion group on Facebook. I think you raise some valid questions. It's a very morbid conversation but it's also relevant to this case. I don't wear scarves very often but even 4-6 feet seems long, to me, although I could be wrong. I guess maybe now that I think about it 4 feet would be about average. I've been thinking to myself the last few days that honestly even if I wanted to hang myself I probably would have no idea how to properly do it, and I'm 8 years older than Phoebe was. Maybe she could have looked it up online or something? but even then actually executing it successfully....and again the natural preservation reflex. Obviously a lot of people do successfully hang themselves but if it was in the stairwell I agree that I think she would have been able to reach up and at least give herself enough slack. I guess that depends on the length of the scarf and the stairwell or closet configuration -still have too many varying reports of where she was actually found.
I believe I read that officially it was death by asphyxiation - so she didn't die right away. I could be wrong but I'm nearly positive that's what I read because, as I say pretty much in every reply to this thread these days, it made me sick.
That's all I have now but thanks for joining and letting us know your thoughts. It will create an interesting discussion.
man...good thinking but I should have done what I said I was gonna do 15 mins ago and went to bedI have several images in my head that I do not wish to be there. puppies, kittens, rainbows, fluffy unicorns, etc. la la laaaa
oh geez....you can definitely tell I was running late for my appointment with sleep last night, hah. sorry for that.
kind of a side note but last night I did go to bed with bad images running through my brain. then I realized I had some strange beat that I didn't recognize kind of stuck in my head. it was then I remembered I had listened to techno all day at work yesterday in memory of Phoebe and one of the songs decided to start playing in my head last night as I was thinking about all these bad things. it made me kind of laugh and not feel so bad.
http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20360860,00.html
Preview of the People magazine special on Phoebe - on newsstands tomorrow. posted it in the media links thread but put it here as well in case anyone wanted to discuss it.
Preview of the People magazine special on Phoebe - on newsstands tomorrow. posted it in the media links thread but put it here as well in case anyone wanted to discuss it.
From masslive forums
9918.1.1.2.1.1.1.2. With all due respect some of us have friends
by redrunner101, 4/14/10 22:03 ET
Re: When does it stop by redrunner101, 4/14/10
in law enforcement so we get the inside scoop and believe me they are guilty.
9918.1.1.2.1.1.1.2. With all due respect some of us have friends
by redrunner101, 4/14/10 22:03 ET
Re: When does it stop by redrunner101, 4/14/10
in law enforcement so we get the inside scoop and believe me they are guilty.
do we know for sure whether or not there was a suicide note? I know it hasn't been reported that there was one, but has it for sure been reported there wasn't one? Sorry if this is old news, I just feel like most of what I read has been "there has been no report of a suicide note" which means maybe there was one and they just haven't confirmed it. do they usually say in suicide cases for sure whether there is or isn't one? I would think that lack of a suicide note would require at least some further investigation into it possibly not being a suicide. In my local paper this morning there was a report of an elderly lady found dead in her home as a result of a gunshot. At first it was thought to be a suicide but after further investigation it has now been ruled a homicide. Just made me think.
concentric
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Who knows what was running through her mind in those final moments? She was certainly led to this end by the tormentors. She also may have wanted to make the ultimate sacrifice in order to expose these people and change the world. I will not discount it.
Phoenixfla
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Kris - I find this theory very interesting. Do you have any idea what the scarf was attached to? Something afixed to the ceiling?
No note (if there is none, and I think we'd have heard about one) may just imply a very hasty decision on her part.
I do think it was suicide and I think that if this DA had even the hint of not being able to trust the local police with the basic investigation of the scene and such we'd have seen her bring in the state police.
On the slim chance that things change I believe it would be real difficult for the prosecution because Phoebe was cremated already, thus eliminating the chance for a second look at physical evidence.
There's pictures I'm sure from the autopsy. It is quite possible that she did this alone. As she died from asphixiation. She smothered to death. When you hang your neck breaks if you do it the right way. She was 15! She didn't know what she was doing. She did it the wrong way or someone else did it and made it look like she did it to herself. What did she stand on and kick out from under herself?
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