The Box From Hell (BFH) - #1

[Dr. Doogie]

Could it be they needed a 'picture' of a 'mother' to show Anna, someday, as this was your Mother/Grandmother...?

Seems plausible to me.

 

[SherlockJr]

Sherlock: TK could mean 'take'

ETA He wrote "lv" for leave and I really think "tk" is "take"

GraceBlue, I thought it stood for take also. When I seen both were capitalized, I began to think of initials. Maybe Annasmom can clarify if they were capital letters.

 

[mysteriew]

FINAL/SOLUTION
Lv. G enough food to withstand & combat any poss. onslaught
Paraphenalia c itemized receipts in container(s)
TK pict/Margaret.

Lv= looks like a word, probably leave. The L is capitalized, the v is small.
TK= are both capitalized. Like initials of a name or a place.
/ =isn't that usually referred to as per? or in math it would be read over?
c= is there a mark over the c? remember that doctor's often use medical shorthand and a c with a mark over it means "with"

Leave George enough food to withstand and combat any possible onslaught.
Paraphenalia c (either see or with) itemized receipts in container.
TK picture per Margaret. ??? Or= TK picture over Margaret???

You said there was a mention of Italian counsel in the box. Why would either of the G's need Italian counsel? Possible adoption?

Is there a well known place in Italy with the initals of TK?

 

[GraceBlue]

SherlockJr- Hmm. Sometimes when people write "K" it looks the same to me, whether it is capitalized or lower case. If you know what I mean? Was the note handwritten or typewritten?

 

[Annasmom]

SherlockJr- Hmm. Sometimes when people write "K" it looks the same to me, whether it is capitalized or lower case. If you know what I mean? Was the note handwritten or typewritten?

This was handwritten in a small memo book and nothing was capitalized. It's my typing which is confusing. Tk was "take", LV was "leave", and the c was that little symbol with the dash over the top which GW used to mean "with".
Something new of interest: I found a list of phone numbers (again researched in 1982 by Joe Ford) which GW called the day GB died and several days after that. One of the numbers belonged to an anesthesiologist, and they had several extended conversations, one of them very shortly before GB died. Since GB had an epigastric tube because of his throat cancer, this strongly suggests euthanasia to me, and it would have been a simple matter under the circumstances. There was no autopsy, and the coroner's investigation seems to have been rather superficial, since the doctor who signed the death certificate (GW) was right there.

The poison, then, was on hand, and GW in a state of deep depression probably decided, after he had gone through all the papers and destroyed whatever he didn't want to leave, probably just took the rest of it.

This makes more sense to me than the idea that either one of them wanted to do ME in. Actually, I doubt they thought of me at all at that point.

 

[InterestedNHelping]

That was and is a common scenario, today we use morphine, and hospice, but in those days, doctors and nurses relieved suffering in the ways they knew how (I have older medical friends who would attest to that being the way back then)

There are two things that I keep coming back to, over the last year that I wanted to know if they could be addressed?
1. The most important being...When Annasmom signed papers to change Anna's middle name, did she keep the papers, and what was on those papers exactly?
2. It strikes me as strange (what doesn't with all of this?) that GB, knowing he was dying, did not revert the monies and life insurance policies back to GW, unless he knew that GW would take his own life right away in order to be with GB in the afterlife? Or did he? Did GW have alot of life insurance after his death? I can't seem to figure out who's policies were whose at the time.

 

[SherlockJr]

This was handwritten in a small memo book and nothing was capitalized. It's my typing which is confusing. Tk was "take", LV was "leave", and the c was that little symbol with the dash over the top which GW used to mean "with".

Thanks for clearing this up.

This makes more sense to me than the idea that either one of them wanted to do ME in. Actually, I doubt they thought of me at all at that point.

You are probably right by this time they were not thinking of you. They already got you by getting Anna from you. But 10 years earlier, you may have been the target.

 

[Annasmom]

There are two things that I keep coming back to, over the last year that I wanted to know if they could be addressed?
1. The most important being...When Annasmom signed papers to change Anna's middle name, did she keep the papers, and what was on those papers exactly?
2. It strikes me as strange (what doesn't with all of this?) that GB, knowing he was dying, did not revert the monies and life insurance policies back to GW, unless he knew that GW would take his own life right away in order to be with GB in the afterlife? Or did he? Did GW have alot of life insurance after his death? I can't seem to figure out who's policies were whose at the time.

I don't remember signing any papers to change Anna's middle name. I think her father did it in person at the Department of Records. All I have is copies of two birth certificates, one before the name change and one after.
I have not found ANY life insurance in the BFH. All the policies (and there must be at least 50) are accident insurance on George Waters, with George Brody named as the irrevocable beneficiary.

 

[Cubby]

A few more questions and comments......

I think it is presumptious to think Waters would have shared his suicidal thoughts with Brody. I'm under the impression, Waters sought more approval and asuicidal side would have demonstrated more vulnerability.

After reading about the "M" vacation picture, (and my initial thoughts were right on with Annasmom, thinion) makes me wonder about Margaret being childless. Some spouses were found, did Margaret bear any children? Did she lose any children? Did she desire children? What were her feelings about inferitlity? Could that be an angle, considering legal adoption was far more difficult/restrictive back then. I have a family example, and keeping it short they had a one year window, and if a child was not available within that year, it wasn't "Gods will".

If Brody was "bigger" than Jesus, could Margaret have become more of an icon somehow after her death, and the fact that her ulimate death was what initially brought the Georges together.

 

[SherlockJr]

A few more questions and comments......

After reading about the "M" vacation picture, (and my initial thoughts were right on with Annasmom, thinion) makes me wonder about Margaret being childless. Some spouses were found, did Margaret bear any children? Did she lose any children? Did she desire children? What were her feelings about inferitlity? Could that be an angle, considering legal adoption was far more difficult/restrictive back then. I have a family example, and keeping it short they had a one year window, and if a child was not available within that year, it wasn't "Gods will".

Nothing has been confirmed about spouses yet. These were from some directory listings that JF had on some notes. We believe there were two George Brody's living in the SF area, the other GB was married and his wife's name was listed also. I don't think they are the same person. Same goes with MK, one year it listed she was a widow to _______. I will call the library tomorrow and find out if this information was actually in the directory for that particular year. There are no birth records in CA during the time of MK's child bearing years that list her maiden name. I do not believe she had any children. Her death record states that she lived in CA for 30 years which puts her in CA in the year 1937 at the age of 20.

 

[InterestedNHelping]

I don't remember signing any papers to change Anna's middle name. I think her father did it in person at the Department of Records. All I have is copies of two birth certificates, one before the name change and one after.
I have not found ANY life insurance in the BFH. All the policies (and there must be at least 50) are accident insurance on George Waters, with George Brody named as the irrevocable beneficiary.

I find this disturbing, that GW went to the county records in person possibly, and filed the paperwork. I wonder, if it could be possible to get copies of all papers submitted to the State Records, regarding Anna that could possibly have been submitted by GW. At the time, it may have meant nothing more than a name change, but in retrospect, I keep wondering what he may have filed at that time, that opened the legal doors for him to have Anna, and take her elsewhere (under Brody's influence of course) In the aforementioned 'Plan" about ACE and whatnot, there is mentioned that Final Arrangements with Ls (lawyers I think) have been made.
I have theorized for quite some time,that there was more than a name change that occured, and that the name change was the beginning of something more, and later things with lawyers took place, the question is what? The legalities after you change a name, to put a child up for adoption etc, are possible, and I think it is very important to request the records, (even if you have the birth certs already) and get everything provided to the state regarding Anna. There could be more than you might think is there, possibly.
I have found that when that name change occurs, you can file other paperwork with the state, (when doing adoption, or single custody, etc) at the same time. I am certain about this, as I have found it working on other cases, so it is worth checking into.

 

[Dr. Doogie]

(Margaret's) death record states that she lived in CA for 30 years which puts her in CA in the year 1937 at the age of 20.

I suspect that this information on the death certificate was incorrect by about five years. The Kukoda family has confirmed that Margaret came to San Francisco during WWII, so that would probably put it around 1942.

 

[Dr. Doogie]

...Same goes with MK, one year it listed she was a widow to _______.

The note refers to just a first name for the "husband" (not George or Russell). Most widows do not revert back to their maiden name (especially in the 1950's), so this entry is very curious (and suspect).

 

[itsreenw]

Doogie, belated Happy Birthday!!

This may be addressed somewhere already but what if anything have you heard about a passport being issued for Anna? Did the office ever reply?

What I am making of all the info above is that first of all, I believe GB intended to kill GW after all his insurance policies were written up to his satisfaction and all the legal docs were in effect to prevent Anna from claiming anything later. I can understand taking out one policy but he was going to be rich when GW died. He seemed to know GW was going to die an "accidental" death. Secondly, it is unlikely that GB would have allowed GW to go on vacation for leisure. He worked him like a dog. Where ever GW was going it was probably specifically to do something for GB's benefit.

The notes had the following references:

"given ok" to tk M's picture on vacation. - I believe he was referring to Margaret. GB worshipped the memory of that woman and if Anna reminded him of her at all, it is possible GB gave GW "permission" to take an existing photo of Margaret with him and Anna to show how much she resembled her 'mom'. Especially if he was going to another country to give Anna to her unsuspecting adoptive parents. I dont believe it was GB's intention to kill Anna or he wouldn't have been so concerned about her coming to claim his inheritance.

Going over the 'to do' list, these are what I think he may have meant:

passport off(ice)
executor (of a will?)
Italian Consul(ate). So perhaps a trip to Italy?
Call Apha regarding Isr...(APHA is short for American Public Health Assoc) www.apha.org . Maybe "Isr" is supposed to mean insurance. Or it could mean American PHarmacist Assoc. www.http://www.aphanet.orgaphanet.org.

Maybe GW was contacting them to ask about obtaining drugs for GB so he'd have enough while GW was away or maybe to inquire about the suicide drugs.

Final/Solution
Food and water for GB incase of onslaught, Paraphernalia and itemized receipts in containers...

Obviously he wanted to make sure GB had enough to eat and drink in case he became so ill he couldn't get those things himself. Maybe even kill himself if it came to that. Maybe the paraphernalia and itemized receipts in container(s) were to show the meds/needles or whatever was going to be used to commit suicide, had been purchased/prescribed by a licensed doctor. GB would of course, make GW take responsibility for his death.

I may be waay off but with this pair, anything was possible!

 

[mfmangel1]

After my Dad died and my Mom remarried an unscrupulous con man, he informed her that he had legally adopted me and that my named was now --------------. My Mom was from a very small town and very niave and believed him even though she didn't sign any papers, etc...

Of course, later on we found out that this was not true...Among many other things! Years later, we are still paying for some of his illicit deeds! :furious:

My Mom is no longer allowed to date! :crazy:

 

[Cubby]

I know this doesn't help with the search, but could the Rommel letters and Final Solution: Food and water for GB incase of onslaught, Paraphernalia and itemized receipts in containers... have some kind of reference with the vietnam war? Especially with GW's attempts at avoiding the draft.

Personally, I believe some of GW's psychosis had to have been witnessed by GB and it's likely GB, as manipulative as he was, took advantage of that fact "leading" GW into increasing fear only to "rescue" him for GB's gain.


I asked previously, in the GB thread I think, about Margaret having children. Thus far none have been found, at I doubt she did for some reason. However if she desired children and had infertility issues, is it possible Anna's abduction relates in some way, either to someone in MK's family ( close or distant ) or someone who GB placed upon a pedestol as he did MK and chose to give Anna to them?


Just some thoughts.......

 

[Dr. Doogie]

I asked previously, in the GB thread I think, about Margaret having children. Thus far none have been found, at I doubt she did for some reason. However if she desired children and had infertility issues, is it possible Anna's abduction relates in some way, either to someone in MK's family ( close or distant ) or someone who GB placed upon a pedestol as he did MK and chose to give Anna to them? ...

I entertained this possibility, but after speaking to members of the Kukoda family, I am convinced that they have no involvement (either illicit or innocent). They have been very forthright and helpful.

As to the question of any possible children by Margaret, we have not found any evidence of any offspring. The Kukoda family member that I spoke to stated that he suspected that our interest in Margaret might have been because we were an adoptive child looking for their birth family, but that is not based on any information that he had, just it seemed like a plausible explaination why we were asking the sort of questions that we were.

 

[InterestedNHelping]

Is there any hope of scanning and posting this multitude of papers for us, or is it only for a few folks to see? I ask, because after this much time, I think we should put out as much info as possible into finding Anna, at least, as much as Annasmom feels is appropriate.

 

[Dr. Doogie]

Ultimately, it would be Annasmom's call, but my feeling is that by definition these are the personal papers of George Waters and should be released sparingly as they directly relate to anything that we find. Remember that these papers came into our possesion because Waters's brother felt that they may be of assistance to Annasmom in finding Anna. Even though the internet was not in existance at that time, I am sure that making the papers available to the general public was not his intention.

 

[Annasmom]

Ultimately, it would be Annasmom's call, but my feeling is that by definition these are the personal papers of George Waters and should be released sparingly as they directly relate to anything that we find. Remember that these papers came into our possesion because Waters's brother felt that they may be of assistance to Annasmom in finding Anna. Even though the internet was not in existance at that time, I am sure that making the papers available to the general public was not his intention.

That said, I will note that I have scanned every page of the little day calendar GW probably carried in his shirt pocket and forgot to destroy when he was editing his papers. SherlockJr and Doogie will have these, and it's fine with me if they want to post any of it. Except maybe the part about the Grecian Formula.