The fugitive theory and secret visit of Santa

[redeemed]

Voynich-you still haven't answered the questions I posted above!!!

 

[JMO8778]

"Barbara Kostanick was the mother of a playmate of JBR's. She asserted: "The day before Christmas, JonBenet was at our house playing with Megan. The kids were talking about Santa, getting all excited. I asked JonBenet if she had visited Santa Claus yet. She said, “Oh, Santa was at our Christmas party the other night.” Megan had seen Santa at the Pearl Street Mall, so we talked about that. Then JonBenet said, “Santa Claus promised that he would make a secret visit after Christmas.” I thought she was confused. “Christmas is tonight,” I told her. “And Santa will be coming tonight.” “No, no” JonBenet insisted. “He said this would be after Christmas. And it’s a secret” (Schiller 1999:38-39).

The Spin
You can spin it but Barbara Kostanick and Megan Kostanick are not JR, and JB did not identify who Santa Claus was.

um I didn't say they WERE JR.and we don't know the rest of that conversation either.we can't just assume there were no more questions about it.(I'd ask).just like we don't know the rest of what JB said on the stairs the night she was found crying,nor do we know exactly what all JR said to his older kids and his daughter's fiance when he admitted being present at the crime scene a full 2 hrs earlier.(which,for the average joe on the street,that would have merited a full investigation!) as would have the turning over of evidence withheld (the package of underwear).but nooooooooo....not in the Ramsey case!!

 

[JMO8778]

And I don't normally curse but John would have done well not to *&^% up and call himself Santa.OOPS!!

 

[voynich]

No i havent seen all the clips..actually, i plan to watch the entire movie sometime soon..u got me interested...

Ok, so for Santa to have JB's trust means that he must have seen her atleast a few times before the murder..(surely she wouldn't trust a complete stranger 100%)..
Now the question is-in what setting is JB likely to have encountered this Santa...or rather, is it a Santa that her parents were acquainted with (family friend) or someone only she was acquainted with? ( in the latter scenario, I can only imagine someone from school, like a school teacher..but even then, her parents surely must have seen him atleast once..maybe in a parent-teacher meeting , concert etc)..
seriously, evertime I consider an intruder, I can only see a family acquaintance.. there is no way a complete stranger did this...NO WAY...
So Voynich, do we both agree that "Santa" is a family acquaintance?
If so, who are the likely candidates?
I believe that ALL were cleared??
(Please correct me if Im wrong, as this is my understanding so far...):waitasec:
Is there ANY acquaintance whom you believe wasnt examined and investigated sufficiently, in your opinion?
If so, who?

Voynich-you still haven't answered the questions I posted above!!!

JB would have to know this individual quite well, but the family might not necessarily know him behind his face. JB could have met him at West Dance studio -- I picked this as the one place where she and Amy were located.

If it is West Dance Studio, he obviously likes young girls (JB and Amy), and perhaps wanted to teach "dance" to JB in the form of sexual contact.
He explains to JB that in order to perform a kick a certain way would require access to her vagina for example. The R's drop JB off the West Dance studio, and sure they know some individuals there, but not necessarily all of them.

For all JB knew, "dance" includes a man's finger in her vagina.

He obviously told JB to keep it a secret, and he became concerned that JB might tell so he silenced her.

I want to know what Amy's rapist looked like, how tall, race (can't assume white male) facial hair, weight, whether they took DNA samples, a sketch artist sketch of Amy's rapist, what Amy thinks this guy knew her, etc.

What does Amy think? Did Amy think her attacker killed JB?

Did Amy know of JB?

Other places may include school or pageantry.

 

[madeleine]

um I didn't say they WERE JR.and we don't know the rest of that conversation either.we can't just assume there were no more questions about it.(I'd ask).just like we don't know the rest of what JB said on the stairs the night she was found crying,nor do we know exactly what all JR said to his older kids and his daughter's fiance when he admitted being present at the crime scene a full 2 hrs earlier.(which,for the average joe on the street,that would have merited a full investigation!) as would have the turning over of evidence withheld (the package of underwear).but nooooooooo....not in the Ramsey case!!

Spot on again! :clap:

Why would a pageant queen think she's ugly?Maybe because her mom accused her of never being perfect? Or was it daddy manipulating her?

 

[Sophie]

And how do you know this?

Indeed: there is not a knot in existence that a competition class sailor and ex-Navy man could not tie. It is that simple.

 

[madeleine]

Maybe this was some sort of strange deal with the DA after all.....okay,go after my wife but leave me alone?

just thinking outloud here

 

[madeleine]

Indeed: there is not a knot in existence that a competition class sailor and ex-Navy man could not tie. It is that simple.

Wanna hear something funny?I've tried it myself....the knot,the stick and stuff.No big deal.

 

[Sophie]

Ok, so we are supposed to imagine that Lou Smit, Mary Lacy and the Ramseys' own investigators haven't investigated the Amy case? (Which, Voynich, has been discussed at massive length on the forums over the years: it hasn't been ignored).

In fact, I'm pretty certain it was discussed at length on one of the four UK documentaries on the JBR murder. Lou Smit was involved in three of these and, in edited form, they were shown in the US.


Seriously, we are looking to see what the Amy rapist DNA status is, but the investigation almost certainly included the Amy case at some point in the past 13 years.

 

[madeleine]

Ain't it a very bizarre coincidence?Both kids having secrets?Burke said at some point as well that if you tell a secret it's no longer a secret.Who trained him?

CREEPY!

 

[Sophie]

Wanna hear something funny?I've tried it myself....the knot,the stick and stuff.No big deal.

The 'complication' of the knot is one of the maddest bits of spin in this case, Madeleine. Securely tying a bit of string to a stick is fairly intuitive anyway, but we had sailors, handicraft people and ex-Eagle Scouts in the family, so even if it were a complicated knot, there were three people in the family who could almost certainly do pretty proficient knots. The fact that the Rs were obviously capable of tying the knots is hardly decisive evidence of their guilt so I am not sure why the RST try to make such a point of saying they didn't have that capability.

Grrr. Drives me nuts.

 

[madeleine]

ITA Sophie!

 

[Sophie]

Ain't it a very bizarre coincidence?Both kids having secrets?Burke said at some point as well that if you tell a secret it's no longer a secret.Who trained him?

CREEPY!

It is, Madeleine! Hadn't thought about this!

WRT from a visit Santa. Maybe Patsy told JBR that Santa would be coming to Charlevoix after Christmas to account for there being presents there? Those who think that a Ramsey male may have been abusing JBR would point out that dads (or males) normally play Santa in most families and that this person would be uniquely placed to entice JBR by promising more attention from Santa - say on Christmas night.


It's interesting that Burke believed in Santa til he was at least 9 (according to DoI). Is this not a bit old to be believing in Santa?

 

[voynich]

The 'complication' of the knot is one of the maddest bits of spin in this case, Madeleine. Securely tying a bit of string to a stick is fairly intuitive anyway, but we had sailors, handicraft people and ex-Eagle Scouts in the family, so even if it were a complicated knot, there were three people in the family who could almost certainly do pretty proficient knots. The fact that the Rs were obviously capable of tying the knots is hardly decisive evidence of their guilt so I am not sure why the RST try to make such a point of saying they didn't have that capability.

Grrr. Drives me nuts.

Do you have any qualified experts on this matter? Has JR admitted he could tie such a not?

 

[voynich]

Ain't it a very bizarre coincidence?Both kids having secrets?Burke said at some point as well that if you tell a secret it's no longer a secret.Who trained him?

CREEPY!

It is, Madeleine! Hadn't thought about this!

Another RDI SPIN bites the dust.

Twisted, by the RDI Spin side, young Madeliene and Sophie are.


The resident Dark Lord of the Spin objected to my use of the term "RDI spin tunnel vision" but if I were to answer The Spin's question "Ain't it a very bizarre coincidence?Both kids having secrets?Burke said at some point as well that if you tell a secret it's no longer a secret.Who trained him?"

take a look for yourself -- the narrow dogmatic view of the Spin, if you wish to be wise and complete investigator, you should take a larger view of children.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4N5o7_rlFU"]YouTube - The Lion King *HD* - Part 1 of 9[/ame]


[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHw8pN9ABtM&feature=related"]YouTube - The Lion King HD Part 4 (English)[/ame]


[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IslCKNu0xtY&feature=related"]YouTube - The Lion King HD Part 8 (English)[/ame]

 

[BBB167893]

David, recall back to your first lesson.

I HAVE! "Always keep an open mind, but not so open that your brain falls out."

If intruder had samples of PR's handwriting, it would be easy for him to deliberately disguise his handwriting in a way to superficially look like PR's.

Yeah, right. No one else could do THAT well.

And there handwriting experts who point out significant differences between PR and RN.

Yeah, the ones JR hired! And even they couldn't say she didn't.

Forensic linguist Gerald McMemanin is well aware of handwriting experts who claim a match between PR and RN,

First I knew of that. Don't keep me in suspense.

but as a linguist his expertise is to report linguistic data and his impartial evaluation of it.

Tempted as I might be to consign that to the category of "cop-out," I can understand it. He's not a handwriting analyst, and he doesn't claim that he is or that he knows better than they do. He just does what he does. I respect that. I really do.

Master Dave I'm disappointed. RDI spin team holds you in such high esteem. Surely you can do better!

Just wait until I get warmed up!

"Barbara Kostanick was the mother of a playmate of JBR's. She asserted: "The day before Christmas, JonBenet was at our house playing with Megan. The kids were talking about Santa, getting all excited. I asked JonBenet if she had visited Santa Claus yet. She said, “Oh, Santa was at our Christmas party the other night.” Megan had seen Santa at the Pearl Street Mall, so we talked about that. Then JonBenet said, “Santa Claus promised that he would make a secret visit after Christmas.” I thought she was confused. “Christmas is tonight,” I told her. “And Santa will be coming tonight.” “No, no” JonBenet insisted. “He said this would be after Christmas. And it’s a secret” (Schiller 1999:38-39).

"Santa" and JB had a sexual relationship. This explains erosion with hymen, and primary transfer of his DNA in JB's vagina. Santa was worried that JB might expose him as a pedophile, and decides to kill JB. Santa had a pre-arranged meeting w/JB. JB keeps door unlocked to meet Santa. Santa has entered house before, and possibly took the yellow pad with him (which may had samples of PR's handwriting)

No forced entry as in Fugitive. Santa wore gloves. No fingerprints as in Fugitive.

JB lets Santa in. Santa brings with him the yellow pad w/RN, consciously attempting to imitate PR's handwriting. He provides JB w/pineapple she eats it. He decides to kill her and put her in the basement. He thinks some incriminating evidence like hair and fiber might be in JB's body or clothes so does some re-dressing.

He has seen the Fugitive. He knows if he keeps JB"s body in the house, the parents will be blamed just as Dr. Richard Kimball was. He stages the scene to include a false point of entry (basement window) false motive of kidnapping, to cover his own real motive.

I MIGHT be able to believe parts of that, but overall it's a flop.

A common RDI spin is that the R's over-staged the crime scene, and that if a hypothetical intruder wanted money why did he leave the body behind? Therefore the R's must have staged the RN as the only possible explanation to create a fiction of kidnapper scenario.

Works for me. And it's not particularly an RDI "spin."

He may have heard the $118k bonus from JB.

Why would she remember that, though?

No need to speculate whether the R's knew how to tie such a knot. They don't.

You've been drinking LS's Kool-Aid again. The knot expert said that ANYONE could have tied that knot.

He realized if he staged the crime scene, profilers would be mislead into thinking the parents did the staging. He carried off w/broken paintbrush, nylon rope, items that are source of brown fiber and beaver hair, wipes flashlight of blood (which also cleans it of fingerprints).

He left behind the RN, which was really full of Freudian slips that he wanted to kill JB to silence her, some possibly incriminating items and left out the door. As with the Danielle Van Dam murder, no forced entry means no clear evidence of an intruder of the kind that is usually present. He left behind the body as he has no need for it now JB is silence, and knowing the parents will take the fall.

NOBODY's that good, voynich. Not even me.

The DNA and forensic linguistics are the most compelling evidence of this. What RDI spin calls staging, such as head blow and strangulation, is actually the handiwork of Santa. The "degraded" DNA found in JB's fingernails may be result of previous weeks contact w/Santa. Santa hoped to cover up his previous sexual contact by staging a sexual assault w/paintbrush, not knowing that her hymen was already eroded.

The intruder staged the crime scene and motive to mislead the RDIST into thinking the parents staged the crime scene into believing the intruder did it. Santa may have had some feelings for JB and hence a proprietary interest in JB. He felt he needed to silence her or risk ruin to his professional reputation.

This is a case of an intruder staging the crime scene to frame the parents, not the other way around. He opened the basement window to mislead LE into thinking he entered that way. He knew he did not enter that way but through JB, and he knew from studying profiling that profilers would see this as the R's staging the crime scene. He does not want to be found. He does not want to be caught. He does not want his reputation ruined.

You tell a good story, voynich. But this is one of those times when I have to appropriate lines from HOTYH and remind you that a story is all it is, at present.

The reason forensic linguistics doesn't match is that the intruder did not know how to disguise that, only knew how to imitate PR's writing. He thought the R's were from the South, and used Southern words like gentlemen.

I could believe that, if not for McM using Colorado as his basis.

The DNA in Vagina was the result of a PRIMARY transfer of his finger in her vagina, and his DNA on the sides of the long johns due to PRIMARY transfer from his shedding skin cells to those locations.

You slipped up there, friend. There was NO DNA in JB's vagina or anywhere else on her actual body. That's pretty much the whole problem with the DNA in general.

Unsourced brown fibers were from a teddy bear he gave as a gift to JB.

Did he take it with him?

“Santa Claus promised that he would make a secret visit after Christmas.” I thought she was confused. “Christmas is tonight,” I told her. “And Santa will be coming tonight.” “No, no” JonBenet insisted. “He said this would be after Christmas. And it’s a secret” Pretty amazing coincidence wouldn't you say?

Yeah, IF it happened.

RDI spin team, tell me something, what do you think JB had in mind when she said “Santa Claus promised that he would make a secret visit after Christmas.” I thought she was confused. “Christmas is tonight,” I told her. “And Santa will be coming tonight.” “No, no” JonBenet insisted. “He said this would be after Christmas. And it’s a secret”

Provided it actually happened, when you're talking about a six-year-old and Santa Claus, it could have been anything.

and is it coincidence she was murdered then?

I'm of the mind that this could have happened on any day. That's one area where HOTYH and I agree fully.

To address the RDIST beloved CASKU:

It's obvious just how devastating their finding is to IDI to have such a serious mad-on for them!

 

[BBB167893]

(although red fibers found in rope and paint tray)

Except we KNOW where those came from!

 

[BBB167893]

If it is West Dance Studio, he obviously likes young girls (JB and Amy), and perhaps wanted to teach "dance" to JB in the form of sexual contact.
He explains to JB that in order to perform a kick a certain way would require access to her vagina for example. The R's drop JB off the West Dance studio, and sure they know some individuals there, but not necessarily all of them.

For all JB knew, "dance" includes a man's finger in her vagina.

He obviously told JB to keep it a secret, and he became concerned that JB might tell so he silenced her.

I hate to say it, but this brings up an interesting subject, one which I think deserves its own thread.

 

[BBB167893]

Wanna hear something funny?I've tried it myself....the knot,the stick and stuff.No big deal.

As have I. Same result.

 

[BBB167893]

Another RDI SPIN bites the dust.

Twisted, by the RDI Spin side, young Madeliene and Sophie are.


The resident Dark Lord of the Spin objected to my use of the term "RDI spin tunnel vision"

Right. And my tolerance is getting quite low.