The Murder Weapon

[6stringer]

I hate to admit this, but I've been wondering about the tape stuck to the skull since Spitz testified. If the tape were stuck to the face before decomp, wouldn't it fall off as the body decomposed rather than resticking itself to the bone once the skin disintegrates?

certainly possible IMO...if EVERYTHING could magically come to fact it would not surprise me at all if it floated from several feet away, and found its resting spot where it did. not likely, but freakishly possible

 

[6stringer]

my only point here is that there was doubt as to the purpose of the tape. thats all.

 

[Sophiered]

me too

I would like to know when Casey told Jose Caylee drowned, or if she did

Remember when Cindy testified that she stopped looking for Zanny 7 weeks ago? Well it was 7 weeks before the trial that the defense told her that he was going to use the drowning story.I don't know how much detail he told George and Cindy, such as the supposed molesting theory, but I think he may have to give Casey some idea of what he is going to present in opening.

 

[Sophiered]

I dont think the tape was in any particular position when found...months of weathering, scorching sun, water rising, flowing, animals pulling/tugging...I can see where that would be hard for a juror to say for certain that is was a murder weapon. it is possible (not likely) that that mass of tape started out someplace totally different! all of the movement may have placed it in its found position. it is a possibility, and reasonable doubt

But the tape was still stuck to her hair near her left ear. After the tape deteriorated the tape that was exposed to air and insects lost all it's sticking quality, but where it was overlapping on itself it still held tight and still held tight to the hair, that is why the lower jaw was still in place.

That fourth piece of tape that was found 6 feet from the body, I think was used for Caylee's hands.

 

[Sophiered]

i was under the impression that there was two pieces of tape stuck together and the third was found six feet away.

There were 4 pieces, 3 were stuck together with the hair. One piece 6 feet away was shaped in a circle with a small circle inside of it, and it was another brand not Henkel, I think it might have been the tape that Casey borrowed from Amy to stick the flag to her body for the anything but clothes part. She never returned that tape. I think she tied Caylee's hands with it, then ran out of tape so used the Henkel from the family shed.

 

[Sophiered]

I hate to admit this, but I've been wondering about the tape stuck to the skull since Spitz testified. If the tape were stuck to the face before decomp, wouldn't it fall off as the body decomposed rather than resticking itself to the bone once the skin disintegrates?

Yes it would fall of, and it did. BUT not from the hair it was stuck to, hence holding the jaw in place. It held there the 3 pieces stuck to each other.

 

[Controversialist]

i was under the impression that there was two pieces of tape stuck together and the third was found six feet away.

IIRC, there were 4 total duct tape strips found, each 6-9 inches in length, 3 strips found with the skull, stuck to head hair, and 1 strip away from the skull, stuck to fine hairs possibly consistent with wrists, and with red fibers possibly consistent with Caylee's shirt.

:banghead:

 

[cv1964]

I can't believe I was just sitting here placing fingers over my mouth and nose... What an incredible visual.. . just makes me want to cry for that baby all over again and what she had to endure

 

[Nikki 01]

I did the duct tape experience on myself, but my experience was different than MEM2010.

I started off by placing the first one over my mouth of course. I made sure pressed it on really tight to seal it off. I tried to see if facial movements or breathing would move it, but it did not. I placed the second strip over my nose. My entire nose and mouth area was basically covered, but as Mr. Ashton said there was a gap so I was able to breathe. So I then placed the third piece over the gap. I made sure I pressed on the tape really tight so it was stuck to my face really good. Breathing did not move the tape nor did any facial movements.

I was able to breathe somewhat as there was a bit of a gap at the top of the nose. After about 30 seconds or so (I did not time it) it felt like my breathing was getting a little labored.


But then I pinched my nose which caused the tape to completely seal and it immediately cut off my air. I panicked and ripped off the tape. It actually took me a few seconds to get it off and I was afraid I would die doing a stupid experiment.

The one thing that stuck out to me (besides that duct tape smells really funny) is that the duct tape covered up a good portion of my face. I was looking into the mirror while I was doing this and it was a little jarring to see how much it really covered. I'm familiar with duct tape of course, but I had a totally different picture in my imagination when I would try to imagine duct tape covering someone's mouth and nose. The tape when first applied would have probably covered almost the entire face of that sweet little girl.

If I couldn't have removed the tape from myself for whatever reason there is no doubt I'd be dead. A child easily would have died from it.

 

[jengasauras]

Remember when Cindy testified that she stopped looking for Zanny 7 weeks ago? Well it was 7 weeks before the trial that the defense told her that he was going to use the drowning story.I don't know how much detail he told George and Cindy, such as the supposed molesting theory, but I think he may have to give Casey some idea of what he is going to present in opening.

I've read this in a few Threads today and must have missed the announcement or testimony. So if she has just stopped looking for zanny and Caylee who did she cremate?

 

[Sophiered]

I've read this in a few Threads today and must have missed the announcement or testimony. So if she has just stopped looking for zanny and Caylee who did she cremate?

I thought the same thing when I heard her, it was I think the first time she took the stand, and I think it was during cross examination.

She had testified that she had never seen the blouse found with the body. In January Caylee was filmed wearing it at I think Ricardo's, when Caylee was on the coach with her playing a guitar. It was filmed again in I think it was April. The state thinks she left it in a back pack, as Cindy never saw it. My thinking is that Casey purchased it with the intention of using it when she killed Caylee, I know a little bit of a stretch, but think wording on it, and of the fact it had been worn in January, and then again at least twice more, and Cindy had never seen it? That is one reason Cindy didn't think the body was Caylee, because she thought she knew all of her clothes, and didn't recognize that blouse, the other reason I read somewhere, sorry can't remember exactly where, but Cindy used to count the teeth of Caylee as they came through, the body had around 2 teeth less than Cindy thought Caylee had.
So maybe it helped Cindy to be in denial that the body was Caylee, she might have just gone along with everyone else and the DNA saying it was Caylee, but still held out hope that Caylee was still alive. That is until Baez told them of the drowning story.

 

[Puzzler]

If you watch Mr. Ashton during closing arguments, he uses his own hands to show how the tape was placed.
In fact, when I saw him use his hands as the tape, it gave me pause.
It was then I realized the tape wasn't placed 3-across.

Mr. Ashton shows with his hands that one tape was over the mouth...horizontal.
Second piece of tape was lined up above the first piece.....also horizontal.
Third piece is what made my jaw drop....
Third piece he used his hand and started around his forehead, came down diagonally to the chin.

It was shortly after that, I started to wonder if in fact the tape was put on Precious Caylee after she was dead. And that Casey just used her hands and a plain ol' pillow.
Otherwise, why the diagonal piece of tape.....from right of forehead to left of chin (If I remember correctly-that's why I am trying to search for just that part of closing argument because I don't remember if it was right to left or left to right).

Wish I could find just that part to link here.....I am still searching for it.

Possibly because Caylee was beginning to struggle and move her head around due to lack of air from the first two pieces covering her mouth and nose. (I'm very sorry for that image.)

 

[jengasauras]

Remember when Cindy testified that she stopped looking for Zanny 7 weeks ago? Well it was 7 weeks before the trial that the defense told her that he was going to use the droMwning story.I don't know how much detail he told George and Cindy, such as the supposed molesting theory, but I think he may have to give Casey some idea of what he is going to present in opening.

I've read this in a few Threads today and must have missed the announcement or testimony. So if she has just stopped looking for zanny and Caylee who did she cremate?

 

[Linda7NJ]

I am convinced beyond doubt that duct tape and chloroform were the murder weapons.

 

[mistressammie]

The duct tape IMO wouldn't have been placed to stop decomp fluids. If that were the case, I believe there would have been a LOT more duct tape. Possibly even evidence on the roll of duct tape. Imagine trying to rip pieces off while *GRAPHIC* struggling with a dead body that is dripping decomp fluid everywhere. Surely even a small amount would have gone from the individual's hands to the roll of tape.

Also, the mouth and nose wouldn't have been the only source of leaks. And as another poster said, had the area been wet from decomp fluids, the tape wouldn't have stuck in the first place. Also, what about the heart sticker? Someone desperately trying to 'plug the holes' in a leaky body wouldn't have taken the time to search for a sticker to place over the tape?

I don't know if I'll ever make sense of this mess.

 

[eleni777]

The duct tape IMO wouldn't have been placed to stop decomp fluids. If that were the case, I believe there would have been a LOT more duct tape. Possibly even evidence on the roll of duct tape. Imagine trying to rip pieces off while *GRAPHIC* struggling with a dead body that is dripping decomp fluid everywhere. Surely even a small amount would have gone from the individual's hands to the roll of tape.

Also, the mouth and nose wouldn't have been the only source of leaks. And as another poster said, had the area been wet from decomp fluids, the tape wouldn't have stuck in the first place. Also, what about the heart sticker? Someone desperately trying to 'plug the holes' in a leaky body wouldn't have taken the time to search for a sticker to place over the tape?

I don't know if I'll ever make sense of this mess.

I think the heart sticker has to be left out at this point. The "residue" disappeared and the sticker they found was attached to something else. The wooded lot is very close to a school...hundreds of kids with stickers..Plus it would have to be a heart sticker of EPIC proportions to keep decomp fluid from spill out.

I'm still having trouble reconciling the tape. IIRC, RK didn't mention duct tape when he saw and picked up the skull with his meter reader stick. He didn't mention it the second time either. Once the flood of Faye came around and the wooded lot became a swamp that tape could have come off the bag or something else and got stuck to the skull.

 

[els]

where did you get this info? just curious..I made my statement out of my own experiences. so many needs for the stuff in my life. have used it in about as many ways as you can imagine. it is as miraculous as it is unpredictable lol.

anyways, I am not arguing the states claim (or yours) as to its use here, just saying (from my experience) that I feel it could have migrated there somehow...just a possibility (maybe 1 in a b'jillion)

just to add to the statement you quoted originally, we once locked our car keys in the car and had to smash a small back window to get in and get them. we couldnt replace the window for a couple of weeks so we put cardboard in the gap, covered it with a bin sack and then duct taped over it all to make it water proof. when we got the new window fitted we had to cut out the section of board with a stanley knife, and then spent an hour or so peeling the tape off the car. the white adhesive stayed stuck to the car for weeks and went hard and wasnt sticky to the touch, more hard like it had set. we tried to jetwash it off, we tried to scrape it without damaging the paintwork, in the end we got white spirit and cleaned as much off as we could that way. even now months later, the car is long gone, we gave it to my mum, it still has tiny bits of tape residue on the bodywork that we couldnt get off. i guess i would use this example to tape being left to the elements of heat and rain ( this is the UK, its always raining!) which also, when they accused RK of taping the fleshless skull, even my DH said "remember the car! that skull would have had all that white stuff on it". i totally feel she taped that little girls face up when she was alive.

 

[HartsX3]

What if Prosecution said Chloroform was the murder weapon vs. Duct Tape
1. Premeditation - chloroform searches
2. Motive - ICA wanted to party and didn't have a babysitter (could prosecution find any times during the weeks leading up to Caylees death that ICA was out partying and can't confirm anyone caring for Caylee at the time?
3. GA had nothing to do with the Chloroform (CA is the liar on this part)
4. Jury would understand the importance of the chloroform since it seemed unclear to them

I strongly believe we would have had a conviction JMO

 

[SideKick]

Maybe Casey will now join WS and tell us. Now that she is free, has access to the web again and types in her name. Oh look how many pages I am on. Better set things straight now. Of course she'll be under a false name .... Lightening Strikes?

 

[clv129]

my theory: casey met tony--she liked the nightclub lifestyle--but tony was not comfortable with caylee spending the night with them in his bed--cindy was starting to get on casey's back about not coming home at a decent hour, going out so often, etc... the only real 'ammo' cindy had was to tell her that she wouldn't be babysitting caylee overnight anymore... casey retaliated by being a spiteful 'b*tch' and decided not to leave caylee with her at all... casey spent the night with tony after settling caylee in the car that night—sedating her with zanax—the next morning casey left the apt 'go to work' and found that caylee died during the night because the car got too hot…casey panicked and drove around with caylee in the car while trying to decide what to do... she went to her parents house to bury caylee, but thought better of that… decomposition was starting so she taped her mouth to prevent fluids from coming out, put a heart sticker on her mouth area, put her in the plastic bag and back into the trunk… she had to act like nothing happened to caylee to prevent suspicion—she continued with her ‘bella vita’… when the smell became obvious, she dumped the bag (removed the heart sticker—or it fell off over the months in the bag...maybe got torn off when the bag was disturbed by animals or whatever…the duct tape was too grossed up for her to touch to remove—or fluids were still escaping).. dumped the car… and the rest is history…

I don’t think george/cindy were involved in the coverup.. they worked too hard trying to find caylee… maybe lee was involved in the coverup… as far as I remember he didn’t participate in the searches… and his speech at the memorial about how proud casey should be of him for keeping their ‘secret’…

One thing that I wonder about is about the smell… I heard someone say that the smell permeates everything it comes in contact with… I’m wondering why no one could smell it on casey or her clothes after she drove around in the car for those few days?