The oversized Bloomingdale’s panties.

[dogperson]

dogperson,
I think the answer is possibly yes. Yet if BR wore those size-12's his touch-dna will be on them, just as likely he showed them to JonBenet.

We do not know if the size-12's were opened by BR, since they may have been located elsewhere?

.

I could be trying to think so far outside the box that I've gotten too far from the box (haha). The remainder of the package of the size 12 panties were never found, if I recall correctly. So I was trying to think if maybe the other 6 pairs had already been used in some sort of sex-play and then discarded previously, before the night JBR died. Does anyone remember how far ahead of Christmas PR was supposed to have purchased the panties?

I don't think any of the Ramseys left the house between the death of JBR and the arrival of police so where did the package go? If a member of the Ramsey family killed JBR, and they did indeed leave the house and discard the other panties, they could also have disposed of other crime scene items and even the body itself. So I was thinking maybe the panty package was already open and other pairs had already been used. I suppose though, if a person wanted to, on the night of the murder they could flush each remaining pair and even the flimsy packaging down the toilet a piece at a time to dispose of them. Or else, if a member of the Ramsey family didn't kill JBR, the perpetrator took the package of remaining panties with him as a souvenir or something?

 

[andreww]

I could be trying to think so far outside the box that I've gotten too far from the box (haha). The remainder of the package of the size 12 panties were never found, if I recall correctly. So I was trying to think if maybe the other 6 pairs had already been used in some sort of sex-play and then discarded previously, before the night JBR died. Does anyone remember how far ahead of Christmas PR was supposed to have purchased the panties?

I don't think any of the Ramseys left the house between the death of JBR and the arrival of police so where did the package go? If a member of the Ramsey family killed JBR, and they did indeed leave the house and discard the other panties, they could also have disposed of other crime scene items and even the body itself. So I was thinking maybe the panty package was already open and other pairs had already been used. I suppose though, if a person wanted to, on the night of the murder they could flush each remaining pair and even the flimsy packaging down the toilet a piece at a time to dispose of them. Or else, if a member of the Ramsey family didn't kill JBR, the perpetrator took the package of remaining panties with him as a souvenir or something?

The remaining panties were eventually found by Patsy years later and handed over to police. Why didn't LE find them in 1996? Remember, none of the Ramsey's were searched when they left the house. The easily could have just walked away with evidence. Patsy's sister did her infamous raid and could have taken evidence. And, there is always the chance that the Ramsey's simply hid some things in the house and LE just never found them. I always think of how Paul Bernardo hid his snuff films in a ceiling light fixture, and how police never found them despite a massive search.

My gut feeling is that they were hidden. If the Rs had removed them, that means they would have to have kept them in their possession all those months they were staying with friends. One would think that the would have dumped them asap.

And btw, what makes you so certain they never left the house? I doubt they would have driven anywhere, but one of them certainly could have walked to the nearest public garbage bin and disposed of things. And remember, John disappeared for about an hour that morning. Plenty of opportunities, before and after.

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[dogperson]

The remaining panties were eventually found by Patsy years later and handed over to police. Why didn't LE find them in 1996? Remember, none of the Ramsey's were searched when they left the house. The easily could have just walked away with evidence. Patsy's sister did her infamous raid and could have taken evidence. And, there is always the chance that the Ramsey's simply hid some things in the house and LE just never found them. I always think of how Paul Bernardo hid his snuff films in a ceiling light fixture, and how police never found them despite a massive search.

My gut feeling is that they were hidden. If the Rs had removed them, that means they would have to have kept them in their possession all those months they were staying with friends. One would think that the would have dumped them asap.

And btw, what makes you so certain they never left the house? I doubt they would have driven anywhere, but one of them certainly could have walked to the nearest public garbage bin and disposed of things. And remember, John disappeared for about an hour that morning. Plenty of opportunities, before and after.

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Oh, I see, I had forgotten that the panties were eventually "found" by PR, I was thinking they never turned up.

I'm not certain nobody left the house on foot, I was just thinking if anyone left by car they would maybe have just taken JBR and concealed her someplace. Then there would have been no need for all the staging of the body. However, as her parents, maybe they didn't want her body lying in the woods or in a ravine or a body of water from then on but wanted her "found" and properly buried.

I definitely agree with you that the Ramseys must have hidden the rest of the panties. I think PR knew all along exactly where they were. It was a large house and it's not difficult to conceal small items even in plain sight. (Years ago, while in an abusive marriage, I used to conceal cash for my planned escape inside family pictures, like between the pictures and the back of the frame.) A small package of panties wouldn't take up a great deal of space and a person could easily find a little niche to hide them in or PR may simply have put them in her handbag and walked out with them.

 

[Pigskinprincess]

Oh, I see, I had forgotten that the panties were eventually "found" by PR, I was thinking they never turned up.

I'm not certain nobody left the house on foot, I was just thinking if anyone left by car they would maybe have just taken JBR and concealed her someplace. Then there would have been no need for all the staging of the body. However, as her parents, maybe they didn't want her body lying in the woods or in a ravine or a body of water from then on but wanted her "found" and properly buried.

I definitely agree with you that the Ramseys must have hidden the rest of the panties. I think PR knew all along exactly where they were. It was a large house and it's not difficult to conceal small items even in plain sight. (Years ago, while in an abusive marriage, I used to conceal cash for my planned escape inside family pictures, like between the pictures and the back of the frame.) A small package of panties wouldn't take up a great deal of space and a person could easily find a little niche to hide them in or PR may simply have put them in her handbag and walked out with them.

I can't imagine a mother that would rather take a paint brush to her daughter's vagina, choke her repeatedly with a garotte, but not want to dump her in the woods.

 

[CorallaroC]

Thats a good point. I doubt Patsy would have allowed Lil Miss Boulder to go out on Christmas in mismatched ponytails.

And it doesn't surprise me about photos not coming out. The Whites really haven't had anything to do with the press so that may be the reason. Or maybe nobody really too many pictures. I've been to many family Christmas' where nobody took many pictures, especially in the days before cell phones.

Hi andreww, I mostly TIA with your viewpoint in this post.

IIRC, the report of "a-symetrical ponytails" comes from the autopsy report. From a male coroner who also overlooked several important issues. Throw his opinions or observations out? NO of course not.

But IMO the description of "a-symetrical ponytails" probably should not be taken too literally, I mean afterall, what does an asymetrical ponytail really mean?? In a brutal murder such as this case, I would look more closely at the ponytails to determine if they became asymetrical from rough handle abuse. (Women understand this, how a perfect ponytail can be moved around (albeit often painfully) with most any sort of physical activity.

My thoughts on the White party photos is that those might be one of the few things kept from public eye. Personally, I think the White family is totally innocent and have been wildly railroaded over the past 20 yrs, from lying sensation-seekers, the R-camp, the DA's office, and even the Governor played a part in allowing unfair chastisement of the W family JMO. My guess is that the White's and BPD still keep important FACTS confidential within the investigation, in order to somehow preserve the integrity of the case, EVEN when they have been faced with horrid accusation and undue suspicion. JMO

 

[THE BUNK]

I can't imagine a mother that would rather take a paint brush to her daughter's vagina, choke her repeatedly with a garotte, but not want to dump her in the woods.

1. John most likely did the garrote and the paint brush. I doubt he told her about what he was going to do. Just that he was "preparing" her.

2. Something may have occurred that made dumping her body in a remote location impossible. Perhaps the 911 call was done early. The Ramsey's are making all this up by scratch.

3. I hate to say it but the strangling and penetration is pretty tame by child murder standards. It wasn't like they had to chop her body up into 20 parts and put it in woodchipper. This murder is not the most brutal we've seen. In many ways it's one of the more milder murder scenes in terms of violence.

 

[otg]

Hi andreww, I mostly TIA with your viewpoint in this post.

IIRC, the report of "a-symetrical ponytails" comes from the autopsy report. From a male coroner who also overlooked several important issues. Throw his opinions or observations out? NO of course not.

But IMO the description of "a-symetrical ponytails" probably should not be taken too literally, I mean afterall, what does an asymetrical ponytail really mean?? In a brutal murder such as this case, I would look more closely at the ponytails to determine if they became asymetrical from rough handle abuse. (Women understand this, how a perfect ponytail can be moved around (albeit often painfully) with most any sort of physical activity.

My thoughts on the White party photos is that those might be one of the few things kept from public eye. Personally, I think the White family is totally innocent and have been wildly railroaded over the past 20 yrs, from lying sensation-seekers, the R-camp, the DA's office, and even the Governor played a part in allowing unfair chastisement of the W family JMO. My guess is that the White's and BPD still keep important FACTS confidential within the investigation, in order to somehow preserve the integrity of the case, EVEN when they have been faced with horrid accusation and undue suspicion. JMO

Actually, the ME never used the word "a-symmetrical" in describing the ponytails. I think that is a word a poster here at WS came up with to describe his/her interpretation. Here is the only thing written by the ME:

"The scalp is covered by long blonde hair which is fixed in two ponytails, one on top of the head secured by a cloth hair tie and blue elastic band, and one in the lower back of the head secured by a blue elastic band."
​

If you've seen the photo showing her entire head, you'll see exactly what Dr. Meyer was describing. I won't post the photo, but it can easily be found.

 

[andreww]

1. John most likely did the garrote and the paint brush. I doubt he told her about what he was going to do. Just that he was "preparing" her.

Not sure why you feel it was most likely John. In fact, I think most will say John was the least likely suspect. Both Thomas and Kolar don't seem to believe John probably had the least to do with it.

2. Something may have occurred that made dumping her body in a remote location impossible. Perhaps the 911 call was done early. The Ramsey's are making all this up by scratch.

I don't think it was anything other than common sense that kept them from dumping the body. Lets say the decide to dump her body in some remote wooded area. If cops find one tire print, one foot print, or a single hair from either John or Patsy in that area and they're sunk. There is only one possible explanation for any of those things. Keeping the body in the house removes any forensic issues because it is after all their house. I think it would have been a huge mistake to try and dump the body.

3. I hate to say it but the strangling and penetration is pretty tame by child murder standards. It wasn't like they had to chop her body up into 20 parts and put it in woodchipper. This murder is not the most brutal we've seen. In many ways it's one of the more milder murder scenes in terms of violence.

You're bang on here. One cannot rule out anybody based on the notion that the deed was too heinous for any specific person to have committed. Mothers, fathers and grandpas all do some pretty sick things from time to time.

 

[BBB167893]

I can't imagine a mother that would rather take a paint brush to her daughter's vagina, choke her repeatedly with a garotte, but not want to dump her in the woods.

Sadly, I can. A showbiz child with a showbiz murder needed that showbiz funeral.

And I'm not sure what you mean by "repeatedly."

 

[UKGuy]

Hi andreww, I mostly TIA with your viewpoint in this post.

IIRC, the report of "a-symetrical ponytails" comes from the autopsy report. From a male coroner who also overlooked several important issues. Throw his opinions or observations out? NO of course not.

But IMO the description of "a-symetrical ponytails" probably should not be taken too literally, I mean afterall, what does an asymetrical ponytail really mean?? In a brutal murder such as this case, I would look more closely at the ponytails to determine if they became asymetrical from rough handle abuse. (Women understand this, how a perfect ponytail can be moved around (albeit often painfully) with most any sort of physical activity.

My thoughts on the White party photos is that those might be one of the few things kept from public eye. Personally, I think the White family is totally innocent and have been wildly railroaded over the past 20 yrs, from lying sensation-seekers, the R-camp, the DA's office, and even the Governor played a part in allowing unfair chastisement of the W family JMO. My guess is that the White's and BPD still keep important FACTS confidential within the investigation, in order to somehow preserve the integrity of the case, EVEN when they have been faced with horrid accusation and undue suspicion. JMO

CorallaroC,

I described the ponytails as asymmetrical since they are not one on the left and one on right, but more or less top and bottom, so to emphasise JonBenet probably had her hair done after arriving back from the White's?

They might represent a crude attempt at staging along the size-12 line, but I think its more likely she was readied for bed after arriving back from the White's party.


James Kolar has suggested that the primary crime-scene was the breakfast-bar. What I do not understand is why the R's never factored the pineapple snack into their version of events?

.

 

[elannia]

This is off topic but im planning a sightseeing, vacation trip to Boulder( im in Tennessee) (unfortunately it wont be til next year I have been wanting to go see the town, her house (which is remodeled and different now than in '96, but its still the "house", etc, it would make an interesting trip. and I was wondering if any of our most recent posters have been there (or live close as of now). TIA

 

[BoldBear]

I went by the house twice this year. I had been to Boulder a few times but never the Ramsey house until we had the chance earlier this summer. We just drove by without stopping. The neighbors have been through so much I thought it would be disrespectful. It gave me a good chance to get an idea about the size of the house and how close it is to its neighbors.

If it wasn't for the traffic, it would be a nice place to live: "The People's Republic of Boulder."

 

[Juniorsleuther]

Hi I am new here so hello in advance! The primary crime scene to me defiantly was the breakfast bar and I often wonder why with the evidence of the pinnaple was disregarded entirely. We have a little girl who was supposedly in her bed sleeping yet has pinnaple in her stomache and witnesses from the white's said there was none served and the Ramsey's have no knowledge of her eating any, or giving her any. Something is not adding up! IMO jonbenet was in the kitchen! But that leads us to why! I do have a theory on this and it involved Patsy!

 

[andreww]

Hi I am new here so hello in advance! The primary crime scene to me defiantly was the breakfast bar and I often wonder why with the evidence of the pinnaple was disregarded entirely. We have a little girl who was supposedly in her bed sleeping yet has pinnaple in her stomache and witnesses from the white's said there was none served and the Ramsey's have no knowledge of her eating any, or giving her any. Something is not adding up! IMO jonbenet was in the kitchen! But that leads us to why! I do have a theory on this and it involved Patsy!

I don't think anybody disregard the pineapple. The case has never gone before a judge so technically all evidence has been disregarded. Regardless, in the hands of the weak Boulder DA, the pineapple was all but a useless clue. The oh-so-forgetful Ramsey's couldn't tell them when it was put on that counter, nobody admits to seeing her eat it, and their powerful defence team would have had no problem finding an expert to testify that the pineapple could have been eaten much earlier that day. You and I can see the importance of that clue but it's doubtful that a jury would have seen it the same way.


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[dogperson]

I'm thinking the ponytails were done when JBR was put to bed, maybe to keep the hair from tangling. When I was a kid I had really long fine-textured hair that tangled horribly, and sleeping with it in a ponytail made it easier for my mom to brush and style my hair the next morning. This may have been a practical thing PR did each night to keep the hair easier to deal with.

The word "asymetrical" is a bit misleading as we would tend to think of that as being ponytails on each side of the head but not in the same position on each side, when instead it seems as if it were one ponytail near the top of her head and another lower at the back of her head. This is actually a nice way to section the hair for sleeping or for styling the next morning.

 

[UKGuy]

I'm thinking the ponytails were done when JBR was put to bed, maybe to keep the hair from tangling. When I was a kid I had really long fine-textured hair that tangled horribly, and sleeping with it in a ponytail made it easier for my mom to brush and style my hair the next morning. This may have been a practical thing PR did each night to keep the hair easier to deal with.

The word "asymetrical" is a bit misleading as we would tend to think of that as being ponytails on each side of the head but not in the same position on each side, when instead it seems as if it were one ponytail near the top of her head and another lower at the back of her head. This is actually a nice way to section the hair for sleeping or for styling the next morning.

dogperson,
Another poster made the same points, particularly the dressing of the hair aspect. I reckon Patsy put her hair in the ponytails, or added one, the main point being she was awake and either been in bed or was on her way, via pineapple snack?

.

 

[dogperson]

dogperson,
Another poster made the same points, particularly the dressing of the hair aspect. I reckon Patsy put her hair in the ponytails, or added one, the main point being she was awake and either been in bed or was on her way, via pineapple snack?

.

I was thinking PR did the hair when they got home and she got JBR ready for bed, then later JBR got up and had the pineapple snack with whoever assaulted her, in my opinion that person being BR although I am not 100% sold on it being BR but I lean heavily in that direction, like 80% in favor of it being BR.

 

[Juniorsleuther]

I have always been sold on Patsy did it, but the field is way open as far as her involvement now consider this it seems they were typical kids in the fashion because if it being Christmas and all possibly Burke woke up jonbenet to go play with there presents from that day. It was noted that JR told burke he would help assemble his toy and the. He was to go straight to bed! Could it be that Burke waited until mom and dad fell asleep and then woke up jonbenet? Hey lets go and play with our stuff ? Headed quietly down stairs had some pineapple ? And then Burke decided it was time to take out his jealous rage on his sister who got more presents that day ? Patsy awoken to see what Burke had done, staged the whole damn scene! Told Burke what he did and that if he were to say anything thy would take him away from them. Sent him to bed! ?? I guess the possibilities are endless !

 

[DeDee]

This is off topic but im planning a sightseeing, vacation trip to Boulder( im in Tennessee) (unfortunately it wont be til next year I have been wanting to go see the town, her house (which is remodeled and different now than in '96, but its still the "house", etc, it would make an interesting trip. and I was wondering if any of our most recent posters have been there (or live close as of now). TIA

Greetings, elannia. I stayed for a week in Boulder last April (2015). Several times, I drove by all of the major players' homes and churches. I also drove down the alleyway behind the Ramsey's home where John Fernie parked his vehicle on Dec 26. Personally, I believe Fernie was there for hours before the 911 call. The home has become shrouded in tall evergreens so the home is not all that visible from the street view but don't miss driving the alleyway!

I could not spot the electric fence where Burke was allegedly shocked on Christmas evening while attending the White's party. Their home is huge and on a large, heavily wooded lot. The White's other property two doors down from the Ramsey's is nondescript. I think secret parties were held in that home prior to the time of the crime. jmho I was a bit surprised at how close the University, where John's oldest son attended, was to the Ramsey house.

I toured Pearl Street Mall and dined at Pasta Jay's. I saw the building that once was home to Access Graphics. There was some heavy construction nearby but did not inquire about it. I carried a copy of A Mother Gone Bad by Andrew Hodges to read while there. It's a must read on this case although his slant is toward PDI.

We stayed in a cottage at Chautauqua Park at the foot of the FlatIrons Mountain where the famous Christmas tree was lit when JonBenet wanted to go to the top on Christmas Eve but her parents refused to drive up the mountain for her to get a closer view. The Chatauqua Park is one of only two that are still active in the nation. The other is in New York State. It has a fascinating history that you'll want to read before your trip. We adored our stay at the park so I highly recommend it for your accommodations.

https://www.chautauqua.com/
http://greenvillechautauqua.org/about_chautauqua/chautauqua_history/

Boulder itself is a beautiful area tucked neatly in a valley of evergreens, piñon pines and junipers surrounded by rocky mountainous terrain. I could easily see what draws people to the scenic area. I hope you will enjoy the visit as much as my traveling companions and I did.

 

[Dynamic88]

The Ramsey's entire alibi is based on Jonbenet being asleep the entire time they were home. There would have been no need for a change of underwear because that would mean she was awake and would have opened them up to a whole slew of questions. Patsy had enough trouble keeping her story straight as it was. A whole new "scene" with JB was not something they needed or wanted. So she needed to be wearing the underwear she wore at the party just in case anyone else there had seen them.


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Not really because the Ramseys were also in control of the narrative they'd tell police. So they could have said JBR was asleep but her panties were slightly damp and so were changed.

The basic point is that there isn't any need for "Wednesday" panties even if that's what she wore to the party. It would be very easy for the Ramseys to make up any story they wanted to make up to explain why she had on different panties. So, imo, the idea that someone at the party may have noticed the Wed. feature is irrelevant.

However, someone may have noticed the size isssue, if in fact JBR wore the size 12s to the party (we don't really know what she wore).