The ransom note & Patsy Ramsey, letter by letter.

[cynic]

Note that the ransom note cursive a that is supposed to approximate PR's cursive a isn't really cursive at all.

Yes it is.

It just happens that the manuscript a was superimposed. It overlapped. Thats why the upper right corner of the 'a' is a sharp square in the ransom note sample whereas PR's sample cursive a is rounded as a cursive should be. So really, what you are presenting in the ransom note 'a' is nothing but manuscripts and no cursives.

It is without question overwhelmingly manuscript, but there are definitely a few cursive letter a’s in there.
Compare the clearly cursive "a" in "situation" from page 2 of the RN to PR's cursive "a."
That is in no way any sort of “superimposed” manuscript “a.”

There is nothing unusual about the tail at the lower right because many of the manuscript a's from the ransom note have a tail leading to the next letter (failing to pick up the pen). The ransom note is not cursive.

As I said above, it is overwhelmingly manuscript, but not exclusively.

It seems you are in error, no?

No.

I tend to go by the handwriting and linguistic experts, including one from the US Secret Service and another UC professor who have indicated in a more professional setting that PR didn't write the note.

This has been debated many times; some of the best in the world have identified PR, or at the very least been unable to exclude her.
As I said earlier, there may be dueling experts, but seeing is believing.

Gideon Epstein - Forensic Document Examiner:

Q. What is your degree of certainty yourself as you sit here today that Patsy Ramsey wrote the note?
A. I am absolutely certain that she wrote the note.
Q. Is that 60 percent certain?
A. No, that's 100 percent certain.
Deposition of Gideon Epstein
May 17, 2002

David S. Liebman - Certified Document Examiner:

“There are far too many similarities and consistencies revealed in the handwriting of Patsy Ramsey and
the ransom note for it to be coincidence. In light of the number of comparisons and similarities between Patsy Ramsey and the ransom note writer, the chances of a third party also sharing the same characteristics is astronomical. In my professional opinion Patsy Ramsey is the ransom note writer.”

Tom Miller - Attorney, Court Qualified Expert Witness in Questioned Documents:

“Based upon available exemplars compared to the purported "ransom" note in the JonBenét Ramsey murder, the handwriting is probably that of Patsy Ramsey.”

Chet Ubowski - Colorado Bureau of Investigation Handwriting Expert:

Privately, however, Ubowski, who had made the early discovery that Patsy’s handwriting was consistent with the ransom note on twenty-four of the twenty-six alphabet letters, had recently told one detective, “I believe she wrote it.”
JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation, Steve Thomas, page 174

Cina L. Wong - Certified Document Examiner:

We were called upon to examine the ransom note that was left at the crime scene. The other handwriting expert was in Maryland. Both of us were kept separate so our opinions would be independent. In my opinion, I found that it was highly probable that Patsy was the person who wrote the note. I found over 243 similarities between her handwriting and the ransom note. The other handwriting expert said that he was 100 positive that Patsy wrote the note.

Larry F. Ziegler - Forensic Document Examiner:

“It was determined and is still determined by myself that Patsy Ramsey is the writer of the ransom note.”

Michelle Dresbold - A graduate of the United States Secret Service's Advanced Document Examination training program:

“The two most important factors in identifying the writer of an anonymous letter are: matching patterns and overwhelming odds. The more patterns and characteristics in the anonymous writing that match the writing of the suspect, the more overwhelming are the odds that you’ve found your anonymous writer.
…
Could so many similarities be a coincidence?”

 

[MurriFlower]

Yes it is.

It is without question overwhelmingly manuscript, but there are definitely a few cursive letter a’s in there.
Compare the clearly cursive "a" in "situation" from page 2 of the RN to PR's cursive "a."
That is in no way any sort of “superimposed” manuscript “a.”

As I said above, it is overwhelmingly manuscript, but not exclusively.
No.

This has been debated many times; some of the best in the world have identified PR, or at the very least been unable to exclude her.
As I said earlier, there may be dueling experts, but seeing is believing.

Gideon Epstein - Forensic Document Examiner:

Q. What is your degree of certainty yourself as you sit here today that Patsy Ramsey wrote the note?
A. I am absolutely certain that she wrote the note.
Q. Is that 60 percent certain?
A. No, that's 100 percent certain.
Deposition of Gideon Epstein
May 17, 2002

David S. Liebman - Certified Document Examiner:

“There are far too many similarities and consistencies revealed in the handwriting of Patsy Ramsey and
the ransom note for it to be coincidence. In light of the number of comparisons and similarities between Patsy Ramsey and the ransom note writer, the chances of a third party also sharing the same characteristics is astronomical. In my professional opinion Patsy Ramsey is the ransom note writer.”

Tom Miller - Attorney, Court Qualified Expert Witness in Questioned Documents:

“Based upon available exemplars compared to the purported "ransom" note in the JonBenét Ramsey murder, the handwriting is probably that of Patsy Ramsey.”

Chet Ubowski - Colorado Bureau of Investigation Handwriting Expert:

Privately, however, Ubowski, who had made the early discovery that Patsy’s handwriting was consistent with the ransom note on twenty-four of the twenty-six alphabet letters, had recently told one detective, “I believe she wrote it.”
JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation, Steve Thomas, page 174

Cina L. Wong - Certified Document Examiner:

We were called upon to examine the ransom note that was left at the crime scene. The other handwriting expert was in Maryland. Both of us were kept separate so our opinions would be independent. In my opinion, I found that it was highly probable that Patsy was the person who wrote the note. I found over 243 similarities between her handwriting and the ransom note. The other handwriting expert said that he was 100 positive that Patsy wrote the note.

Larry F. Ziegler - Forensic Document Examiner:

“It was determined and is still determined by myself that Patsy Ramsey is the writer of the ransom note.”

Michelle Dresbold - A graduate of the United States Secret Service's Advanced Document Examination training program:

“The two most important factors in identifying the writer of an anonymous letter are: matching patterns and overwhelming odds. The more patterns and characteristics in the anonymous writing that match the writing of the suspect, the more overwhelming are the odds that you’ve found your anonymous writer.
…
Could so many similarities be a coincidence?”

Ok, well I just looked at the RN written by PR and in the short part of the first page, there are 8 manuscript style 'a's and 31 others (cursive or capitals). So, that seems to me somewhat to favour the 'she didn't write it' theory.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

It is without question overwhelmingly manuscript, but there are definitely a few cursive letter a’s in there.

Nope. Square top right corner=manuscript not cursive, that you erroneously call cursive. There were many anomolous characters in the note, you found an anomolous 'a' and erroneously decided to call it cursive. End of story.

 

[BOESP]

During the televised CNN interview/debate between Steve Thomas and the Ramseys, Thomas asked Patsy if she agreed that whoever wrote the note also killed JonBenet. Patsy said yes she agreed.

 

[Ames]

She even put the "hoodie" over her a's in the Pageant Entry form..before the RN was even written. Look at the M, in Mr. Ramsey...how the right bottom side of the M curves up a little...I have never seen a man write an M, like this before...only women. Not saying that there isn't one out there in the world that does, though....I just have never seen it before. I call it writing "fancy".

 

[BBB167893]

SD you have the patience of a saint. I seldom visit this forum because my head would explode.

Comes with the territory, PrintGal. This forum is an anvil upon which one is beaten.

 

[SunnieRN]

Mf, read Steve's letter again and his referral to the March statement. Ahhhhh.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Yes it is.

No it isn't.


This is exactly the kind of thing that gets people falsely accused: Misinformation.

Note that the RN author was drawing a jagged vertical line and attaching a squared oval to it and calling it an 'a'. The 'a' that your are erroneously calling cursive has the vertical line but its superimposed sloppily on the squared oval. You can see the line because it makes the top of the 'a' appear jagged and flat-topped, not smooth like cursive. So, you are simply taking a sloppy, anomolous manuscript letter from the ransom note, erroneously calling it cursive, and mistakenly calling it a match to PR's cursive only because it looks similar. This is misinformation at its finest. Whats next?

A linguist correctly points out: whoever wrote the ransom note had to be capable of writing the entire note, not just one or two letters. Its evident that PR was incapable of writing the entire note because she demonstrated that she didn't know how to spell 'advise'. RDI backpedals with claims like 'oh she forgot how to spell', or 'oh she's misspelling one word on purpose so she doesnt get caught'. Something ridiculous like that, adding to the massive list of claims RDI makes but can never seem to quite prove.

 

[BBB167893]

I admit your post seems convincing. Superficially anyway.

Seeing is believing, my friend. Seeing is believing.

I tend to go by the handwriting and linguistic experts,

What do you think WE use?

including one from the US Secret Service and another UC professor who have indicated in a more professional setting that PR didn't write the note.

Both of which have several problems, not the least of which is the virtual army arrayed against them!

Not that it matters, HOTYH. That's kind of the point here: with these charts, we don't NEED any experts. That was Alex Hunter's feeling, too.

 

[BBB167893]

Hmmm??

Wood insisted, "The result speaks for itself. How many people settle a libel case?"

A LOT of people. Wood KNOWS that, but that's his trademark: he always accepts settlements, then claims them as victories.

Moreover, this article (if it can be called that, since it only took "information" from one side) more or less confirms what Mark Fuhrman said: that the lawyers for St. Martin's Press pulled the rug out from under ST against his wishes.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Seeing is believing, my friend. Seeing is believing.

Can you then not see PR writes and spells differently, and know it was not her? Can you then not see the petechiae, and know it was not staged?

Can you then not see the lab DNA reports on three samples on two separate sexual assault-related locations, and know it was not innocent?

What do you think WE use?

Whoever says what you want to hear?

 

[cynic]

No it isn't.

Yes it is

This is exactly the kind of thing that gets people falsely accused: Misinformation.

There is no misinformation, the comparison chart in the first post is striking and damaging to the IDI position, you are understandably fighting what is clearly devastating proof of Patsy’s involvement.

Note that the RN author was drawing a jagged vertical line and attaching a squared oval to it and calling it an 'a'. The 'a' that your are erroneously calling cursive has the vertical line but its superimposed sloppily on the squared oval. You can see the line because it makes the top of the 'a' appear jagged and flat-topped, not smooth like cursive. So, you are simply taking a sloppy, anomolous manuscript letter from the ransom note, erroneously calling it cursive, and mistakenly calling it a match to PR's cursive only because it looks similar. This is misinformation at its finest. Whats next?

That is untrue. See below

 

[cynic]

I just read up what I could find on Mrs. Schiller's son Dirk.

Firstly let me say I applaud your becoming involved in a site like this after what you have been through over the last 31 years. It can't be easy opening yourself up to hundreds of other stories similar to your own.

Having said that, I simply want to make a few observations on the RN comparisons. Mostly just writing down what my brain is telling me at this moment......so be gentle.

I believe that the ONLY way this murder will be solved is to definitively link the RN to Patsy Ramsey, and yet I see the date on this comparison...8 years ago!

Cina Wong says on her website "it is a mistaken belief that one can identify gender from a person's handwriting" and I must say, I tend to agree.

In my opinion, much over-analysis of the note has taken place whereby people have attempted to prove that the note shows "motherly care" and the like.

While I believe the note is bogus and was created to muddy the waters, I don't believe a line by line analysis can be used to assess character traits of the author. Most of the analyses shown here have the suspect in mind...they are sifting the candidates through the sifter and seeing who remains.

It's awkward to explain, but as a RDI kinda guy, and in particular PR, you must accept that she was deceptive in the following 10 years after the murder (up until her own death). Someone who can maintain that level of deception over such a period of time must surely be capable of deception when authoring a ransom note. This is the main reason I don't believe attempting to garnish details of personality are useful.

It is the same as us saying "Well, I wouldn't have sat down and waited, I would have searched all over the house...I'd have been in a frenzy". That's an opinion and I whilst probably accurate in an observational sense, it's irrelevant if we're trying to find the author.

Anything I hear the defense saying "I object" to because it is an opinion or a 'feeling', I am dismissing.

So, we have the note. We have consistent matches with PR's own hand-writing from other letters. We have it on her pad with her pen....of course, anyone could have used that. We have practice note imprints visible. That's a fact, so we can use that. That gets us into how comfortable the person was....we know all that part.

The practice notes are a little different to the actual note which tells me that the person knew what they wanted to say, but wasn't so sure how to begin.
Remember, a good beginning and you'll hook your audience.

But I want scientific consistency in order for me to bother connecting the further dots surrounding the note.

What would have been nice would have been getting PR to write the note after various emotional stimuli. After all, at the time the note was written, it's safe to assume whoever wrote it was highly emotional one way or the other. Alas....

I guess the point of my rambling post is that for those of us who are RDI proponents, we need to scientifically connect PR to the note WITHOUT the "it was written by a lady" type analysis as that is too easy to dismiss as guesswork or opinion. This thread and others examining the basics of the notes are where we should be focussing our attention in my books.

Perhaps doing it a different way.
Ubowski said 24 of PR's 26 alphabet letters matched the note.
Statistically speaking....the odds of matching 24 of the 26 letters is 1 : 16,777,216 (I'm saying 50/50 chance of a match on each letter to the power of 24).
Just less than one in 17 million...and that's letter matches alone.
Word matches and phrasing adds to that. I would also add variations like the é in attaché.

I know this still leaves room for someone to say "There are over 6 billion people in the world.", however, we weren't all in the area on the night in question. Pretty sure a massive chunk of the world has an alibi.

BBM

Similarly:
http://gemart.8m.com/ramsey/note/

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Yes it is

There is no misinformation, the comparison chart in the first post is striking and damaging to the IDI position, you are understandably fighting what is clearly devastating proof of Patsy’s involvement.

That is untrue. See below

Patsy’s handwriting samples showed that she was able to perfectly form every letter of the ransom note as per the chart in the first post of this thread.
If you are unable to see the clear matches between those characters, then it is down to unwillingness.

No it isn't. You're calling a letter cursive that isn't a cursive. Plain and simple wrong.

Gee if its a ringer like you seem to claim, where are the cops? Where is the DA? Where is the FBI? Where is the CBI? Asleep?

Nah your claims are unfounded. The overlay shows different stroke, and the 'a' you're calling cursive has a flat top. An erroneous report.

Did or did not the original 'a' that you called cursive in fact have a flat top?

And if so, why is there a flat top there? Is it because it is really a sloppy manuscript? Thats right, isnt' it. Why are you claiming that is a cursive 'a' when it clearly has a flat top?

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Privately, however, Ubowski, who had made the early discovery that Patsy’s handwriting was consistent with the ransom note on twenty-four of the twenty-six alphabet letters, had recently told one detective, “I believe she wrote it.”
JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation, Steve Thomas, page 174

It was the variation in PR’s writing that fooled some people:
We had noticed earlier that in prehomicide writings, Patsy consistently used the manuscript “a,” but posthomicide, it disappeared from her samples of writing. This was a major find, for it looked as if she was consciously changing her lettering. She had more handwriting styles than a class of sixth graders and was seemingly able to change as easily as turning on and off different computer fonts.
I thought about how big a mistake it had been to provide the defense lawyers with a copy of the note. A suspect could study it prior to giving writing samples and consciously avoid certain characteristics, such as the style of writing the first letter of the alphabet.
JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation, Steve Thomas, pages 173-174

We were called upon to examine the ransom note that was left at the crime scene. The other handwriting expert was in Maryland. Both of us were kept separate so our opinions would be independent. In my opinion, I found that it was highly probable that Patsy was the person who wrote the note. I found over 243 similarities between her handwriting and the ransom note. The other handwriting expert said that he was 100 positive that Patsy wrote the note.
- Cina Wong
http://www.cinawongforgeryexpert.com...debusiness.asp

Q. What is your degree of certainty yourself as you sit here today that Patsy Ramsey wrote the note?
A. I am absolutely certain that she wrote the note.
Q. Is that 60 percent certain?
A. No, that's 100 percent certain.
Deposition of Gideon Epstein
May 17, 2002

Cina Wong speaks about the Ramsey case in this radio interview:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dg85wR8Uy5Q

Your hyperlink doesn't seem to be working. Can you source your alphabet comparison as belonging to Cina Wong, or is it junk? Can you then go from Cina Wong to affidavit of PR's exemplars direct from BPD? How do you know PR wrote those letters? Because they came from a NY attorney? Where did HE get them?

Source requested: small case 'p' from PR's exemplar row that shows a square instead of a circle. Where did this come from? What document? When did PR write it?

Until such time that your link starts working and you can source the lower case squared-off 'p' that you claim to belong to PR, as to what document it came from, then maybe I'll take your myriad of unfounded claims more seriously. Superficially it looks nice but...well when we begin to delve into the actuals it seems to have some issues. Let me know when your link works and you've sourced that letter 'p', OK? Was it a pre-murder document?

 

[wonderllama]

Its evident that PR was incapable of writing the entire note because she demonstrated that she didn't know how to spell 'advise'. RDI backpedals with claims like 'oh she forgot how to spell', or 'oh she's misspelling one word on purpose so she doesnt get caught'. Something ridiculous like that, adding to the massive list of claims RDI makes but can never seem to quite prove.

The problem I see with this Holdon, is that you're using one thing to attempt to discredit a multitude of other things.

Sure, spelling is a very obvious variation, but you do yourself a disservice by only accepting a blatant variation in the form of a spelling difference whilst ignoring the vast similarities in the formation of letters, words, sentence structure and content.

Keep in mind, someone can "advise" you on how to spell when they're helping you write a ransom note! They cannot help you change your written fingerprints.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

However, the pair (Leibman and Wong) said they do not know whether the unrehearsed samples were actually written by Patsy Ramsey.

What?!? Cynic what are you DOING? This is all JUNK! LOLOLOL

 

[Peepers]

I make my a's llike that. Sometimes in the first way, sometimes "cursive". I probably couldnt be ruled out as the writer either.

Having said that, obviously the ransom note is the biggest hurdle in the R's innocence. My problem is I cant see either John or Patsy murdering Jonbonet in such a brutal way.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

roflmao

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

The problem I see with this Holdon, is that you're using one thing to attempt to discredit a multitude of other things.

Sure, spelling is a very obvious variation, but you do yourself a disservice by only accepting a blatant variation in the form of a spelling difference whilst ignoring the vast similarities in the formation of letters, words, sentence structure and content.

Keep in mind, someone can "advise" you on how to spell when they're helping you write a ransom note! They cannot help you change your written fingerprints.

It seems that you too should take these posts with some salt like I do, as it is not factually known that PR ever wrote the a-z list that appears at the first thread.

Interesting, huh?