The ransom note & Patsy Ramsey, letter by letter.

Did Patsy write the ransom note?

  • Yes, Patsy wrote the note

    Votes: 289 91.2%
  • No, Patsy did not write the note

    Votes: 28 8.8%

  • Total voters
    317
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My best effort to show respect and stay on topic:

The exemplars from the first post on this thread do not belong to Patsy Ramsey.

A bold statement. And a wrong one, imo.

I believe this is the case because none of the documents PR handwrote that are available have a resemblance to this a-z list.

You must be looking at different documents than I am!

That aside, perhaps you hit on something: "documents that are available." It would not surprise me that these came from documents that are not publically available.

Now what conclusions you wish to draw on that I dont know,

We'll get to that eventually, believe me.

but I certainly noticed your quick wit: LW lied in court.

This seems desparate, vicious, and opportunistic to me.

Are you describing me or LW?

Moreover, how is that my quick wit? I'm not saying that LW lied in court (whether I think he would or not is irrelevant at this point). I'm asking if that's what YOU are saying.

All I know is that this a-z list isn't Patsy Ramseys handwriting, as it bears no resemblance to her exemplars.

Like I said, a bold statement and an erroneous one AFAIC.

It would be one thing for you to argue this way if the comparisons only existed in a vacuum. The problem is, they don't.

If RDI cannot produce the document from which the squared-off 'p' came from, in affidavit form that PR wrote it, this is in my opinion bad sourcing and not something to be proud of or believe it holds weight with me.

Strong words, HOTYH. And awfully convenient, wouldn't you say? By that I mean you can afford to say that because it's not likely that we as regular people will ever get access to those documents. Yes, very convenient for you, indeed!

Now whether or not its fraud depends on who was required by law to provide PR's actual exemplars, who presented this a-z list as the actual exemplars, and where they presented it.

Well, by law, the Rs were required to provide them as part of the discovery process of civil law. And I know they fought like he** not to give them up. PR went so far as to deny she'd ever seen these writings before.

And from my conversations with Cina Wong, I know that the Ramseys' goons tried to scare her out of testifying, and that she was later threatened by Lin Wood if she spoke about the details publically. What does that tell you?

I think you're getting the proceedings of the Wolf case confused, where they may actually have had true representations of PR's handwritings. That doesn't necessarily mean this a-z list, and the squared-off 'p' were part of those proceedings. See what I mean? Or am I talking to myself.

No, you're not talking to yourself. But at the same time, I'm going to have to ask you to be more specifically.
 
I recall Voynich suggesting this a number of months ago.
The primary argument against this is that not only do you have to be able to form the characters individually, you have to be able to piece them together as words and connect them as Patsy would, including spacing and other elements which handwriting analysts would be looking for.

Heyya cynic.

If the rn was cut and pasted together from the written text of the Christmas letter, then some letter groupings, segments from the source words, would exhibit the same patterning as PR's block printing.
 
Heyya cynic.

How would someone know how to connect the "el" and the "ctro" like that?

If the rn was cut and pasted together from the written text of the Christmas letter, then some letter groupings, segments from the source words, would exhibit the same patterning as PR's block printing.

Curious, though, is the problems I've been having getting cynic to source these so-called examples of PR writing. For example, what document did this 'electronic' sample come from? Pre murder, post murder, or what?

I am appalled that a document examiner did a Patsy Ramsey analysis without knowing factually, in affidavit form, that the subject document was written by Patsy Ramsey. Very unprofessional and sloppy. Good enough for the tabloids but not me.
 
Curious, though, is the problems I've been having getting cynic to source these so-called examples of PR writing. For example, what document did this 'electronic' sample come from? Pre murder, post murder, or what?

I am appalled that a document examiner did a Patsy Ramsey analysis without knowing factually, in affidavit form, that the subject document was written by Patsy Ramsey. Very unprofessional and sloppy. Good enough for the tabloids but not me.

It is Patsy's sample writing of the RN...so obviously it is after the murder. The RN was read to her, and she wrote it....funny how she wrote the word "electronic" the exact same way...including the connection of letters...in both the actual RN and her sample.

And what difference does it make if it is Pre or Post murder anyway? Fact remains...that the writings are identical.
 
It is Patsy's sample writing of the RN...so obviously it is after the murder. The RN was read to her, and she wrote it....funny how she wrote the word "electronic" the exact same way...including the connection of letters...in both the actual RN and her sample.

And what difference does it make if it is Pre or Post murder anyway? Fact remains...that the writings are identical.

Who says its Patsy's sample writing of the RN? You?

It does not surprise me that RDI proclaims the writing as identical, while having no proof that PR even wrote it!!! Thats just the standard tabloid hype, and RDI needs that sort of thing to float.

Please provide the document or links to the document that contain this exact 'electronic' script, and how this document is known to have been written by PR.
 
Who says its Patsy's sample writing of the RN? You?

It does not surprise me that RDI proclaims the writing as identical, while having no proof that PR even wrote it!!! Thats just the standard tabloid hype, and RDI needs that sort of thing to float.

Please provide the document or links to the document that contain this exact 'electronic' script, and how this document is known to have been written by PR.

Pretty convenient of IDI's to think that everything that RDI's say/post is fabricated. Who says that there was an intruder? You? Please provide the document or links to the document that contains this information. Haven't you heard the news...the Ramseys have been "uncleared".
 
Who says its Patsy's sample writing of the RN? You?

It does not surprise me that RDI proclaims the writing as identical, while having no proof that PR even wrote it!!! Thats just the standard tabloid hype, and RDI needs that sort of thing to float.

Please provide the document or links to the document that contain this exact 'electronic' script, and how this document is known to have been written by PR.

Hotyh, I choose to believe an expert in the field, who stated to someone on this forum, where she obtained the documents, vs someone who is making accusations that can't be substantiated. Again, thank you for the post you gave us from your interview with Ms Wong, Dave. It was most helpful and informative.
 
Is the counterpoint your way of saying there's no sourcing of the 'electronic' sample?

It escapes me that anyone would post handwriting that they're not at least sourcing to a widely available document. This whole discussion is a farce because we can't source the documents. End of story.
 
It would be one thing for you to argue this way if the comparisons only existed in a vacuum. The problem is, they don't.

If you've used this same vacuum argument on a dozen IDI points, then its no longer a vacuum, but rather an IDI totality of evidence.
 
If you've used this same vacuum argument on a dozen IDI points, then its no longer a vacuum, but rather an IDI totality of evidence.

There is absolutely ZERO evidence of an intruder...end of story.
 
Is the counterpoint your way of saying there's no sourcing of the 'electronic' sample?

It escapes me that anyone would post handwriting that they're not at least sourcing to a widely available document. This whole discussion is a farce because we can't source the documents. End of story.

Look it up your own self...like we did. You can find Patsy's "widely available" handwriting samples on the net. I don't remember you EVER sourcing your "intruder", except for that tired old story of how the Touch DNA found on Jb's longjohn HAS to be from in intruder. Doesn't matter that NOBODY, including you....knows WHEN it was put there, HOW it got there, or WHO put it there. That is NOT EVIDENCE of anything!!!!! Except your closed mind....
 
Look it up your own self...like we did. You can find Patsy's "widely available" handwriting samples on the net. I don't remember you EVER sourcing your "intruder", except for that tired old story of how the Touch DNA found on Jb's longjohn HAS to be from in intruder. Doesn't matter that NOBODY, including you....knows WHEN it was put there, HOW it got there, or WHO put it there. That is NOT EVIDENCE of anything!!!!! Except your closed mind....

my big bold

I am lectured for being so gullible as to believe mainstream media (DNA evidence clears the R's), and to believe 'that ridiculous bogus' ransom note even though it was written by the most fanatical expert on this case.

Then I'm lectured to believe PR's 'widely available' samples 'on the net'. Wow, on the net. Thats ridiculous...How absurd does this get?

Oh yeah, I quoted Wiki once and was dismissed out of hand. I'm afraid you'll be needing more than 'the net' LOL. Please provide a link to the document that contains the handwritten 'electronic' sample supposedly written by PR, otherwise I'll continue to assume THIS is ALL bogus just like the a-z list.

Source requested.
 
my big bold

I am lectured for being so gullible as to believe mainstream media (DNA evidence clears the R's), and to believe 'that ridiculous bogus' ransom note even though it was written by the most fanatical expert on this case.

Then I'm lectured to believe PR's 'widely available' samples 'on the net'. Wow, on the net. Thats ridiculous...How absurd does this get?

Oh yeah, I quoted Wiki once and was dismissed out of hand. I'm afraid you'll be needing more than 'the net' LOL. Please provide a link to the document that contains the handwritten 'electronic' sample supposedly written by PR, otherwise I'll continue to assume THIS is ALL bogus just like the a-z list.

Source requested.

I am done posting with you, or giving you sources...for which you disregard anyway...so I am not wasting my time with you anymore.
 
I am done posting with you, or giving you sources...for which you disregard anyway...so I am not wasting my time with you anymore.

wow! :great::great::great::great::great::great::great:
 
Some strange things about the RN (Besides the length, writing style, etc.)

The ransom note really is the key to this case. To leave a ransom note, with a dead body still inside the house, is both dumb and ridiculous. Especially, with virtually no attempt to hide the body itself. The first thing a 'normal' person would do upon discovering their child missing would be a thorough search of the house. The body would be found within a short period of time rendering the note useless.

For this 'plan' to have any sort of success the kidnapper/killer would have to know, with a high degree of certainty, that the body wouldn't be discovered until they were paid. That is only way the ransom is successful. With the body still in the house, the expectation of this is extremely low. Thus, the ransom was never meant to be successful.

Therefore, as many others before me have surmised, the RN is a fake.

If the ransom note is fake, and there never was any real desire to collect money, why write it in the first place? RN's take time & effort to compose and in this particular instance are extremely risky as the RN was written inside the house. The kidnapper/killer therefore was either a brazen fool, or had complete confidence they would not be caught. An acquaintance with the R's x-mas itinerary could perhaps be somewhat sure they wouldn't get caught writing it, however only a family member who BELONGED in the house could be 100% certain.

Again, with little-to-no expectation of financial gain, why risk writing it at all? This is the big mystery and the key to the whole case as I see it. The best answer so far is, of course:

Staging & Misdirection.

As many have suggested, the RN was designed to make the situation look like something it wasn't. If you dissect things from there, you're left with very little wiggle room.

For example, eliminate the ransom note from the equation. All you have is a dead body in the basement and no clear entry, exit, etc. The DNA in the case is weak and could have come from x number of sources. Basically, there are only 3 other people in the house with the opportunity to commit the crime. They immediately become suspects.

The 'solution' to this mystery then becomes evident. What does the RN do? It provides another 'real' suspect. If someone has JBR, then THEY'RE the suspect. However, if JBR is dead in the basement from the moment of the 911 call, guess who the suspects are? Therefore the only plausible reason a fake RN exists is to secure these two things:

1) It makes it so JBR is still 'alive' at the moment of the 911 call.
2) It provides a suspect(s) that are not the 3 family members.

This also explains why there wasn't a thorough search of the house until much later. Other people around at the time of the 'discovery' provide an alibi, of sorts. Eg. lots of people around when the body is discovered, therefore it couldn't have been the family!

Another strange thing about the ransom note is the R's belief/non-belief in it. Not searching thoroughly (I'm talking about a complete, every room, switch the lights on, open every closet, full on basement to attic check) for JBR after finding the RN means that the R's must have 'believed' the note was sincere fairly quickly.

Eg. The note says they have her, the R's can't find her, they (kidnappers) MUST have her. This process seems to have happened rather quickly. There's one thing strange with this though: If the R's believed the note so quickly, why did they immediately break the rules of the RN and call the police, friends, etc.?

The RN states specifically that they were being monitored and not to call anyone. There are numerous threats about what would happen if they called anyone. Why then the immediate breach? Maybe because they didn't believe, or knew for sure, that the RN wasn't real.

Sure, as a parent your first instinct might be to call 911, but if you sincerely believe in the authenticity of the RN, and that your daughter will be BEHEADED if you call, wouldn't that give you pause? Surely JR & PR would've discussed/argued about this. The note says JBR was 'safe' and 'unharmed'. What would've been the risk of waiting for the first telephone call? Instead, JR & PR immediately disregard the RN's instructions and call the police and others. A big gamble if 'talking to stray dog' = she dies.

This proves that the R's believed the RN enough to not search the house properly, but not enough to heed the warnings and threats it contained. This is very suspicious and a major incongruity. Some might argue, parents would risk calling 911, but if so, why not mention during the 911 call that it says not to call police? Also, why call others to come to your home, further ignoring the RN? Perhaps PR just quickly scanned the first paragraph of the RN and called the police? But in the call she mentions SBTC and Victory. It would stand to reason then that she read the whole thing.

The R's believed the not just enough to have it be 'plausible' to police, but disregard it pretty much in every other sense.

In regards to who actually authored the note, I find FFJ member Cherokee's analysis of the RN entirely plausible and it is probably correct. Patsy Ramsey wrote it. And if this is true, that's the case.

[ame="http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=6404"]http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=6404[/ame]

There could be no innocent explanation of why PR wrote the note. The killer wrote the note. JR & PR have even agreed to this on Larry King Live.

As stated above, it is highly unlikely an intruder wrote the note as they really had nothing to gain and everything to lose by doing so (eg. JBR was probably already dead, extremely low probability of getting money vs giving the police handwriting evidence and/or getting caught in the act) The question then becomes, who does benefit from a fake RN?

The R's, plain and simple. The RN shifts focus away from the family and provides them with an 'alibi'. Look at it this way:

If an intruder really did kill JBR and the RN didn't exist, it wouldn't have hindered them in any way. However, if the R's killed JBR and the RN didn't exist, they'd have lots of explaining to do.

Occam's razor at it's simplest.


PS Possible mini 'smoking gun'? The figure $118,000.00

Yeah, we all know, the size of the bonus. That's not what's important though. It's the unnecessary inclusion of the period & cents! Take a look at Patsy police chart when she spells $118,000 She includes a period (.) after each one!

http://www.acandyrose.com/patsychart3-individual2.gif


This is not included in the example for her to write; she added the period herself! It's very distinctive trait and one I would wager not many people would do unprompted.
 

horatio,

There is not a word I would disagree with in your post. Very insightful, and I agree that Cherokee's analysis at FFJ is dead on and one of the most extensive documents on the RN around.

Welcome to WS. Hope you continue to post and add to the conversation.
.
 
Horatio, I agree with otg also and wanted to add my welcome!
 
Curious, though, is the problems I've been having getting cynic to source these so-called examples of PR writing. For example, what document did this 'electronic' sample come from? Pre murder, post murder, or what?

I am appalled that a document examiner did a Patsy Ramsey analysis without knowing factually, in affidavit form, that the subject document was written by Patsy Ramsey. Very unprofessional and sloppy. Good enough for the tabloids but not me.

Yeah, it WOULD be appalling, IF it happened. I decided to go to the horse's mouth.:

Were those samples from before the killing of JonBenet, or after? or both?

To the best of my memory, both.

Were they from her right hand, her left hand, or both?

Both.

Where did the comparison letters originate, is what I'm asking.

The comparison letters came from the exemplars that Epstein, Cunningham, Riles and I were given. I was told that we all worked from the same generation copies.
 
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