The wait for closing arguments discussion thread

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Could someone please explain what difference it makes, whether TLM knew TS or if TLM entered the school or not, as it pertains to MR's guilt.

Derstine has already stated he was there. So, if Derstine can make the jury believe TS was being babysat, it would throw out enough doubt to the jury that he was just in the wrong place at the wrong time, was a really great guy to protect TLM and help her clean up her horrific crime.

Hopefully, London did not find another 12 people who think the world is flat. (Sue Moss, CA Trial).

MOO

I thought it was perhaps to show rafferty she was really babysitting. Many folk have pointed out he would not likely have seen TLM go in the school so i guess i will drop that theory. Only thing i can come up with is to poke a hole in TLM's story. That she is lying????
 
The defence made their best move today. By not allowing MR to take the stand they more than likely prevented evidence being entered by the crown in regards to his character. His character was not allowed to be attacked as long as he did not take the stand, he would forfit this if he chose to take the stand. Makes you wonder what we will hear when the jury is sequestered. Hence RS saying the truth has not been fully told. I would think he knows more as he went through TLM's hearings and has been their for legal arguments. I think this was a big hint that we will see much much more.....
 
It's really odd that in today's raw video with Rodney Stafford, he knew absolutely nothing about this last witness. It was a complete surprise. I thought that LE had been keeping the family informed of most developments in the investigation and a witness seeing the white coated woman enter the school, then later walk up Fyfe with Tori skipping after her would have been big. Clearly, Derstine got this witness from the Crown's disclosure, yet the Crown did not consider putting her on the stand themselves. Why not? Could it be that the witness and LE thought the white coated woman may be Tara? That would be a good reason not to tell the family. Perhaps LE showed the witness a photo of Tara to see if it could be her. If that were the case, then obviously it was a false lead as we learned 3 months later. Something else that mystified me is how the witness could pinpoint the precise times she arrived at the school and then saw the white coated woman.
 
I think it is entirely believable that the witness would know the precise time that she was at the school & what time she saw TLM ... if you pick up your kids/grandkids ALL the time, you watch the clock!
 
I really don't get it and IMO the jury is quite likely to feel similar in that so what?? So what if Dersitine could actually prove that this one witness of his is ABSOLUTELY CORRECT.. So what?? If even Dersitine were to pull out a golden copy of the school's inside surveillance video that was able to show a close up of TLM's face as she entered the inner sanctum of this elementary school as well as showed her and Tori meeting up on camera in those halls of that elementary school.. AND ALL CAUGHT ON VIDEO AND IN TURN SHOWN TO THE MEMBERS OF THE JURY!!! ... Again I ask.. SO WHAT????

To be completely honest about the situation with TLM and her having chosen Tori as the victim on that fateful day of April 8, 2009.. It has been my opinion that it is much much much more likely that TLM did indeed know of, know who Tori was, knew that Tori was TM's daughter, and may or may not have chosen Tori for a personal vendetta or hatred toward Tara.. Much more likely than any personal vendetta I believe that TLM took Tori for the simple fact that she knew who Tori "belonged to".. IOW it was nothing to do with Tara whatsoever, and nothing to do with Tori whatsoever.. It simply had to do with the fact that Tori was someone/anyone at that school with whom she was familiar with enough that should she encounter Tara or James by chance as she was leaving the school with Tori.. TLM could easily be on the look out for and be able to quickly abort the plan upon her seeing those to whom Tori "belonged to"..

You see it's the one point that actually can be made sense of IMO as to why it was Tori that was chosen on that day.. And IMO It hadn't a damn thing to do with any vendetta(drug, money, jealousy, revenge, etc, etc).. NOTHING AT ALL TO DO WITH ANY PERSONAL ISSUE WHATSOEVER BETWEEN TLM AND ANYONE IN TORI'S FAMILY.. But rather much different and sadly much more simple and basic was the reason for TLM having chosen Tori was purely out of necessity in that as she walked with Tori through and off of the school campus she had the benefit of knowing who Tori "belonged to" she could keep her eye out for who Tori "belonged to".. And she could abort if necessary in TLM seeing someone whom Tori "belonged to".. IMO it is that very simple and basic necessity that would greatly benefit TLM.. That is the only reason that Tori was chosen..

For me what made me finally commit(in my minds eye) that TLM did choose Tori for a specific motive was the fact that in my looking at the situation and the circumstance of that very day and removed Tori from the equation and instead plugged in Little girl, Jane Doe into the equation in place of Tori.. Well the picture became IMO crystal clear that by changing that one, tiny factor in the equation that IT DRASTICALLY CHANGED AND EVEN POSSIBLY PREVENTED THE ENIRE PLAN FROM BEING SUCCESSFULLY EXECUTED.. Jmo, tho..

With Little girl, Jane Doe TLM did NOT have that most important advantage that she had with Tori.. With Jane Doe TLM hadn't a damn clue who Jane Doe "belonged to".. Which I'm going to assume that you all understand exactly what it is that I'm saying as well as understand the huge difference of possible outcomes that become available when taking Tori OUT of the equation and replacing her with any other little girl there that day..

In looking at the events that occurred that afternoon in the way above described IMOO it became very apparent to me that TLM absolutely did choose Tori Stafford as to who would be their victim.. The reasons above described became clear to me and yet in a very different manner than how this defense seems to attempt to allude to in that if they somehow can make the jury believe that Tori was specifically chosen by TLM that it somehow equals none or ATLEAST lesser culpability on the part of his client, MR.. And for me Dersitine could not be more dead wrong in that assumption!!!!!

Because in now coming full circle I will again ask, SO WHAT?!?!!
TLM and how TLM went about choosing and/or snatching who"it" would be that April 8th afternoon that she procured for her lover, MR to unleash his evil sexually dysfunctional needs onto.. And then one/both of them coldly, callously, and savagely beat to death.. How TLM went about choosing who she would deliver as the sacrificial lamb to her lover, MR is ABSOLUTELY, WITHOUT A DOUBT IRRELEVANT to this case.. More specifically it is irrelevant to MR's guilt/not guilt in this case.. This jury is instructed to decide merely was MR involved in any/all of the heinous atrocities that were committed on this small, precious child.. Both pre and post mortem..

Dersitine can bring it on home with the video itself with TLM's face clear as a bell visible to every single person in that courtroom and show her inside the school with the victim, Tori(and obviously there is no such video).. It is absolutely of no relevancy in speaking of his clients involvement in "ANY" or in "ALL" of it..And that very simply is what this jury is there to determine..

Moo..moo..moo.. Moo.. And MORE MOO!!!!
 
Canada is much like the Italian system - hurry and wait while we do whatever. In the US -- defense would close tomorrow, if there was time the State would follow, if not, then Thursday.

They just had 4 days off, including 2 working days. Both sides should have closings prepared and ready to present. The Crown may need to tweak a bit to accommodate today's witness, but that's it. Now.... we have to wait until the end of the week and move into next week before the jury will begin to deliberate. I'm mind-boggled at the extensive delays. Just seems to me it costs lots of time and money.

Oh well..... we will wait (but not patiently) LOL!

Salem

Bringing this over from the last thread ... it's been interesting to see the impatience with "knowing the answer" starting last Thurday, when court was adjourned until Tuesday ... and now again until Friday. I don't think Canadians that watch trials are impatient for hearing the verdict - or at least they shouldn't be. After an arrest, it takes a long, long time before any more information is released to the public (have to wait for the trial).

Prosecutors have at least a couple of hundred case files at any time and defence lawyers probably have their hands full too ... so it makes sense that court starts at 10 (even though the work day starts at about 7:15) and there are breaks in the trial ... life and work goes on around trial schedules. Judges also have schedules to follow and other cases to address. It's certainly not a situation where taxpayers are footing the bill while officers of the court are sleeping in and taking four day weekends.

It would be interesting to see which countries kind of push their trials, day by day, early morning until after 5 PM, until the verdict is in ... I'm not convinced that it's the norm.

In defence of prosecutors, my experience is that they are at work no later than 7:15 each morning and often don't leave the office until 5:30 or 6 PM. They also work evenings and weekends when they're working a trial. While the trial is ongoing, they are also dealing with other cases, advising investigators on whether to lay charges and if so, what charges can be laid, meeting with staff, doing performance reviews (depending on position), advising junior crown on procedure ... there's a lot more to the job than showing up for court ... same thing for some judges and defence lawyers.
 
I really don't get it and IMO the jury is quite likely to feel similar in that so what?? So what if Dersitine could actually prove that this one witness of his is ABSOLUTELY CORRECT.. So what?? If even Dersitine were to pull out a golden copy of the school's inside surveillance video that was able to show a close up of TLM's face as she entered the inner sanctum of this elementary school as well as showed her and Tori meeting up on camera in those halls of that elementary school.. AND ALL CAUGHT ON VIDEO AND IN TURN SHOWN TO THE MEMBERS OF THE JURY!!! ... Again I ask.. SO WHAT????

To be completely honest about the situation with TLM and her having chosen Tori as the victim on that fateful day of April 8, 2009.. It has been my opinion that it is much much much more likely that TLM did indeed know of, know who Tori was, knew that Tori was TM's daughter, and may or may not have chosen Tori for a personal vendetta or hatred toward Tara.. Much more likely than any personal vendetta I believe that TLM took Tori for the simple fact that she knew who Tori "belonged to".. IOW it was nothing to do with Tara whatsoever, and nothing to do with Tori whatsoever.. It simply had to do with the fact that Tori was someone/anyone at that school with whom she was familiar with enough that should she encounter Tara or James by chance as she was leaving the school with Tori.. TLM could easily be on the look out for and be able to quickly abort the plan upon her seeing those to whom Tori "belonged to"..

You see it's the one point that actually can be made sense of IMO as to why it was Tori that was chosen on that day.. And IMO It hadn't a damn thing to do with any vendetta(drug, money, jealousy, revenge, etc, etc).. NOTHING AT ALL TO DO WITH ANY PERSONAL ISSUE WHATSOEVER BETWEEN TLM AND ANYONE IN TORI'S FAMILY.. But rather much different and sadly much more simple and basic was the reason for TLM having chosen Tori was purely out of necessity in that as she walked with Tori through and off of the school campus she had the benefit of knowing who Tori "belonged to" she could keep her eye out for who Tori "belonged to".. And she could abort if necessary in TLM seeing someone whom Tori "belonged to".. IMO it is that very simple and basic necessity that would greatly benefit TLM.. That is the only reason that Tori was chosen..

For me what made me finally commit(in my minds eye) that TLM did chose Tori for a specific motive was the fact that in my looking at the situation and the circumstance of that very day and removed Tori from the equation and instead plugged in Little girl, Jane Doe into the equation in place of Tori.. Well the picture became IMO crystal clear that by changing that one, tiny factor in the equation that IT DRASTICALLY CHANGED AND EVEN POSSIBLY PREVENTED THE ENIRE PLAN FROM BEING SUCCESSFULLY EXECUTED.. Jmo, tho..

With Little girl, Jane Doe TLM did NOT have that most important advantage that she had with Tori.. With Jane Doe TLM hadn't a damn clue who Jane Doe "belonged to".. Which I'm going to assume that you all understand exactly what it is that I'm saying as well as understand the huge difference of possible outcomes that become available when taking Tori OUT of the equation and replacing her with any other little girl there that day..

In looking at the events that occurred that afternoon in the way above described IMOO it became very apparent to me that TLM absolutely did chose Tori Stafford as to who would be their victim.. The reasons above described became clear to me and yet in a very different manner than how this defense seems to attempt to allude to in that if they somehow can make the jury believe that Tori was specifically chosen by TLM that it somehow equals none or ATLEAST lesser culpability on the part of his client, MR.. And for me Dersitine could not be more dead wrong in that assumption!!!!!

Because in now coming full circle I will again ask, SO WHAT?!?!!
TLM and how TLM went about choosing and/or snatching who"it" would be that April 8th afternoon that she procured for her lover, MR to unleash his evil sexually dysfunctional needs onto.. And then one/both of them coldly, callously, and savagely beat to death.. How TLM went about choosing who she would deliver as the sacrificial lamb to her lover, MR is ABSOLUTELY, WITHOUT A DOUBT IRRELEVANT to this case.. More specifically it is irrelevant to MR's guilt/not guilt in this case.. This jury is instructed to decide merely was MR involved in any/all of the heinous atrocities that were committed on this small, precious child.. Both pre and post mortem..*

Dersitine can bring it on home with the video itself with TLM's face clear as a bell visible to every single person in that courtroom and show her inside the school with the victim, Tori(and obviously there is no such video).. It is absolutely of no relevancy in speaking of his clients involvement in "ANY" or in "ALL" of it..And that very simply is what this jury is there to determine..

Moo..moo..moo.. Moo.. And MORE MOO!!!!

awesome post! Yes, that is likely why Tori IMO. This makes the most sense. MOO
 
Rodney- Victoria was a very outgoing girl ...but a...if she knew you. Shrugs.

MOO


found this interesting..."a slip of the lip"..response when asked how he (RS) felt when that witness this morning testified that Tori was chatting and skipping as she walked along with her babysitter/kidnapper...then it seemed like he caught himself...JMO...I didn't expect any bombshells to fall today but the one witness sure opened up a can of worms when she testified that TLM entered the school...short and sweet cross by Dirk but it is now out there...JMO ...I still think that RS is the only one who is honest about everything and it strikes me that if the defence can prove that it was TLM who planned all of this that he( RS )would accept that...JMO
 
I really don't get it and IMO the jury is quite likely to feel similar in that so what?? So what if Dersitine could actually prove that this one witness of his is ABSOLUTELY CORRECT.. So what?? If even Dersitine were to pull out a golden copy of the school's inside surveillance video that was able to show a close up of TLM's face as she entered the inner sanctum of this elementary school as well as showed her and Tori meeting up on camera in those halls of that elementary school.. AND ALL CAUGHT ON VIDEO AND IN TURN SHOWN TO THE MEMBERS OF THE JURY!!! ... Again I ask.. SO WHAT????

To be completely honest about the situation with TLM and her having chosen Tori as the victim on that fateful day of April 8, 2009.. It has been my opinion that it is much much much more likely that TLM did indeed know of, know who Tori was, knew that Tori was TM's daughter, and may or may not have chosen Tori for a personal vendetta or hatred toward Tara.. Much more likely than any personal vendetta I believe that TLM took Tori for the simple fact that she knew who Tori "belonged to".. IOW it was nothing to do with Tara whatsoever, and nothing to do with Tori whatsoever.. It simply had to do with the fact that Tori was someone/anyone at that school with whom she was familiar with enough that should she encounter Tara or James by chance as she was leaving the school with Tori.. TLM could easily be on the look out for and be able to quickly abort the plan upon her seeing those to whom Tori "belonged to"..

You see it's the one point that actually can be made sense of IMO as to why it was Tori that was chosen on that day.. And IMO It hadn't a damn thing to do with any vendetta(drug, money, jealousy, revenge, etc, etc).. NOTHING AT ALL TO DO WITH ANY PERSONAL ISSUE WHATSOEVER BETWEEN TLM AND ANYONE IN TORI'S FAMILY.. But rather much different and sadly much more simple and basic was the reason for TLM having chosen Tori was purely out of necessity in that as she walked with Tori through and off of the school campus she had the benefit of knowing who Tori "belonged to" she could keep her eye out for who Tori "belonged to".. And she could abort if necessary in TLM seeing someone whom Tori "belonged to".. IMO it is that very simple and basic necessity that would greatly benefit TLM.. That is the only reason that Tori was chosen..

For me what made me finally commit(in my minds eye) that TLM did chose Tori for a specific motive was the fact that in my looking at the situation and the circumstance of that very day and removed Tori from the equation and instead plugged in Little girl, Jane Doe into the equation in place of Tori.. Well the picture became IMO crystal clear that by changing that one, tiny factor in the equation that IT DRASTICALLY CHANGED AND EVEN POSSIBLY PREVENTED THE ENIRE PLAN FROM BEING SUCCESSFULLY EXECUTED.. Jmo, tho..

With Little girl, Jane Doe TLM did NOT have that most important advantage that she had with Tori.. With Jane Doe TLM hadn't a damn clue who Jane Doe "belonged to".. Which I'm going to assume that you all understand exactly what it is that I'm saying as well as understand the huge difference of possible outcomes that become available when taking Tori OUT of the equation and replacing her with any other little girl there that day..

In looking at the events that occurred that afternoon in the way above described IMOO it became very apparent to me that TLM absolutely did chose Tori Stafford as to who would be their victim.. The reasons above described became clear to me and yet in a very different manner than how this defense seems to attempt to allude to in that if they somehow can make the jury believe that Tori was specifically chosen by TLM that it somehow equals none or ATLEAST lesser culpability on the part of his client, MR.. And for me Dersitine could not be more dead wrong in that assumption!!!!!

Because in now coming full circle I will again ask, SO WHAT?!?!!
TLM and how TLM went about choosing and/or snatching who"it" would be that April 8th afternoon that she procured for her lover, MR to unleash his evil sexually dysfunctional needs onto.. And then one/both of them coldly, callously, and savagely beat to death.. How TLM went about choosing who she would deliver as the sacrificial lamb to her lover, MR is ABSOLUTELY, WITHOUT A DOUBT IRRELEVANT to this case.. More specifically it is irrelevant to MR's guilt/not guilt in this case.. This jury is instructed to decide merely was MR involved in any/all of the heinous atrocities that were committed on this small, precious child.. Both pre and post mortem..*

Dersitine can bring it on home with the video itself with TLM's face clear as a bell visible to every single person in that courtroom and show her inside the school with the victim, Tori(and obviously there is no such video).. It is absolutely of no relevancy in speaking of his clients involvement in "ANY" or in "ALL" of it..And that very simply is what this jury is there to determine..

Moo..moo..moo.. Moo.. And MORE MOO!!!!

This makes A LOT OF SENSE IMO!!! Also, to add this, if a person was planning to abduct a stranger (child), would they not try to disguise themselves, especially at a school, where you would be seeing other children and parents. I think TLM knew who she was looking for and TS would recognize her, so no disguise was necessary.

The surveillance video of OSPS showed TLM walking around the corner of the school when it first came out and she looked like she knew exactly where to go. Do the children all come out of the same door? If not, how did TLM know what door TS would be exiting after school.

MOO
 
The defence made their best move today. By not allowing MR to take the stand they more than likely prevented evidence being entered by the crown in regards to his character. His character was not allowed to be attacked as long as he did not take the stand, he would forfit this if he chose to take the stand. Makes you wonder what we will hear when the jury is sequestered. Hence RS saying the truth has not been fully told. I would think he knows more as he went through TLM's hearings and has been their for legal arguments. I think this was a big hint that we will see much much more.....

RS could also be talking about all the lies that have been told in this case as well. JMO But I agree with what you said....we have so much more to hear in this case....the next few weeks will be interesting and should also fill in the many holes that we have been left with.
 
found this interesting..."a slip of the lip"..response when asked how he (RS) felt when that witness this morning testified that Tori was chatting and skipping as she walked along with her babysitter/kidnapper...then it seemed like he caught himself...JMO...I didn't expect any bombshells to fall today but the one witness sure opened up a can of worms when she testified that TLM entered the school...short and sweet cross by Dirk but it is now out there...JMO ...I still think that RS is the only one who is honest about everything and it strikes me that if the defence can prove that it was TLM who planned all of this that he( RS )would accept that...JMO

good observation...
 
It's really odd that in today's raw video with Rodney Stafford, he knew absolutely nothing about this last witness. It was a complete surprise. I thought that LE had been keeping the family informed of most developments in the investigation and a witness seeing the white coated woman enter the school, then later walk up Fyfe with Tori skipping after her would have been big. Clearly, Derstine got this witness from the Crown's disclosure, yet the Crown did not consider putting her on the stand themselves. Why not? Could it be that the witness and LE thought the white coated woman may be Tara? That would be a good reason not to tell the family. Perhaps LE showed the witness a photo of Tara to see if it could be her. If that were the case, then obviously it was a false lead as we learned 3 months later. Something else that mystified me is how the witness could pinpoint the precise times she arrived at the school and then saw the white coated woman.

I'd like to see the maps and diagrams of where she said she was and where she saw this woman in a white coat. Was she in the parking lot at the south end of the school or was she in the driveway with the school buses at the north end of the school? TLM and Victoria did not leave the school until almost 10 minutes after the woman claims to have seen the woman in the white coat enter the school through the main door. So her testimony is suggesting that TLM may have been walking around in the school for 10 minutes, entering it before the children were dismissed? And she also claims that the woman went in a different door than Victoria would have exited from. And that she never saw the woman exit the school at all.

The grandmother's daughter was in the school picking up her children according to the testimony. Apparently her daughter did not see a woman in a white coat in the halls of the school. It sounded like the daughter exited the same door that the woman in the white coat entered, right after the woman had entered. If that is correct, the daughter should have passed her on the way out.

Here is a picture of the front of the school. The circled doorway would be where Victoria exited? Where did the grandma see the woman in white coat?

28begll.jpg


MOO
 
RS could also be talking about all the lies that have been told in this case as well. JMO But I agree with what you said....we have so much more to hear in this case....the next few weeks will be interesting and should also fill in the many holes that we have been left with.

Your right I am sure he was talking about the lies during the trial as well.
 
found this interesting..."a slip of the lip"..response when asked how he (RS) felt when that witness this morning testified that Tori was chatting and skipping as she walked along with her babysitter/kidnapper...then it seemed like he caught himself...JMO...I didn't expect any bombshells to fall today but the one witness sure opened up a can of worms when she testified that TLM entered the school...short and sweet cross by Dirk but it is now out there...JMO ...I still think that RS is the only one who is honest about everything and it strikes me that if the defence can prove that it was TLM who planned all of this that he( RS )would accept that...JMO

I wondered if that was a slip as well. It must be difficult to do these daily press interviews on the spot and keep certain info tight lipped. RS is holding up pretty good and keeping VS's name in the headlines. I did notice who was just over his right shoulder in the background, and wondered why no media was in that area.
 
The video of the abduction originally shows TLM walking around the corner of the school and then IIRC, it isn't even two minutes and she is coming around the corner again with VS. This, IMO, does not leave a lot of time to be entering a school, knowing exactly what classroom to go to or what hallway to go to, risking being approached by staff, no one remembering seeing a woman in a white coat, but she stood out to the witness for some reason.

There was just not enough time for TLM for do all that, as per the video, unless the video was edited to fast forward for release to the public.

IMO, this was a plan carried out by two people and not by one and no babysitting was involved.

When the video first came out to the public, I wondered if it was TM myself and then thought that the kidnapper was trying to look like TM so that people witnessing TLM and TS together would think TS was with her mother.

All just MOO
 
To be honest the only clear thing I picked up out of today's testimony is that you can park a helleva lot closer! Score another one for the crown! JMO
 
This makes A LOT OF SENSE IMO!!! Also, to add this, if a person was planning to abduct a stranger (child), would they not try to disguise themselves, especially at a school, where you would be seeing other children and parents. I think TLM knew who she was looking for and TS would recognize her, so no disguise was necessary.

The surveillance video of OSPS showed TLM walking around the corner of the school when it first came out and she looked like she knew exactly where to go. Do the children all come out of the same door? If not, how did TLM know what door TS would be exiting after school.

MOO

Where is this video of OSPS? I don't believe I've ever seen it.
 
If the defence theory is that MR believed TLM was babysitting, then this morning's witness strengthens that argument. If the witness stated from the beginning (which it appears she did) that the white coat woman entered the school, then it sounds like something a babysitter, rather than a kidnapper, would do. MR could say that he didn't want to interfere with the babysitting that TLM was doing, so he stayed out of it. Maybe he's saying that TLM wanted to go for a drive and he had no idea that murder was on her mind. Maybe TLM said she wanted to pick up a hammer for her mom, and that explains why they stopped at the hardware store. Maybe he was afraid of her violence and gang ties after the murder so he distanced himself from her. Maybe he visited TLM in detention because he wanted to encourage her to tell authorities what she did. Maybe he was stunned when TLM pointed the finger at him, but appreciated that she at least truthfully admitted that she caused the murder prior to the start of the trial.

I can see that this is possibly what the defence closing arguments will be ... and this morning's witness certainly sets the stage for that type of reasoning. I still don't believe it.
 
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