The word "hurt" in media reports

[ewwwinteresting]

Hey, no need to apologize for questions! There are waaaay to many in this case.

I find it believeable that RA found her on her knees. (I know that seems odd, but it's surely not the oddest thing that ever happened in a crime. I also believe it's possible that JA took that position when she had cramps. If that's what worked to give her relief, I find it believeable. I don't know if either RA or JA knew she was pregnant. But it's certainly possible that neither of them knew or RA didn't know, thus making RA think that she was kneeling to relieve cramps.)

Yes, I believe that LE found her on her back and I believe that RA moved her from her knees to her back.

I have no idea whatsoever about whether or not RA tried to save her. No clue. If he's NOT the murderer, it's unimaginable that he didn't try. If he IS the killer, maybe he tried and maybe he didn't. Can't say.

Why wouldn't he try CPR? 1. Because he's the killer and wanted her to die. 2. Because he didn't know how. 3. Because he was too panicked. 4. Because first aid protocol says to check the victim, then call for help, THEN start CPR. 5. Because she was dead and he knew it wouldn't help. All pure speculation.

"If so, why would he say hurt or imply hurt if she was obviously dead?"

I don't know that he did say hurt or imply hurt. Those are others' words, not his.

Hoppy

Thank you Hoppy.....lot's of info to mull over.

I asked this question earlier but don't think anyone replied and maybe because noone knows the answer, but can a deceased body stay on their knees or would the body have to be in teh process of dying to stay on their knees?

I believe if raven tried CPR, he would know she was dead and if raven didn't try CPR, he would know she was dead. The fact that he said hurt or didn't say hurt, but implied hurt doesn't make sense. If raven stated my wife is upstair dead, passed away, deceased, whatever, the PO wouldn't have stated or implied raven indicated his wife was hurt, don't you think?

 

[ewwwinteresting]

I can see giving someone the benefit of the doubt or waiting for physical evidence before making a judgement on guilt. However, to imply that the search warrant may have misquoted Raven or that the statement was the officer's translation of Raven's statement, IMO, is bordering on explaining away important details for the sake of your argument.

I truly admire your search for the truth through facts, and your caution in reaching a decision in your mind without "proven" facts. I think that some of the things that we've discussed ARE questionable. IMO, however, the search warrant application is very straight-forward, and is not something that is thrown together haphazardly in order to get the search started quickly. I believe that the language in the document is as accurate as the investigators can make it, and that they are accountable for the words that they choose to use in those documents.

JG, I agree with Hoppy in one point that the Officer or Detective may not have exactly quoted raven, but I do believe if raven told the Officer or Detective, his wife was deceased, he wouldn't have stated raven said hurt. raven HAD to have said hurt or implied hurt with other words.

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

I don't know that he did say hurt or imply hurt. Those are others' words, not his.

And the testimony of those "others" will be considered reliable testimony once a case is brought against a suspect in Janet's murder. The officer that claimed that Raven stated that his wife was upstairs hurt will be called to the stand, and the jury will most likely give credence to his recollections.

Raven hasn't made any public statements. Heck, he wouldn't even provide pictures to an old schoolmate for an article about Janet. So all we have to go on in terms of statements are those from LE. Do I trust LE's account of Raven's words that night? Absolutely. IMO, they have no reason to misrepresent what he said. I would try to combine my interpretations of LE's statements with Raven's direct quotes but he's chosen to hire an attorney and say nothing so there are no quotes from Raven to evaluate.

 

[ewwwinteresting]

On the floor of the unlit office, fully clothed, at 10:30 at night? :waitasec:

If raven was clueless on how a woman relieves cramp, I may buy into it, but the fact that raven stated she was in this position before, it doesn't make sense.....especially being all dressed with shoes on. Talk about uncomfortable during a major cramping episode!

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

JG, I agree with Hoppy in one point that the Officer or Detective may not have exactly quoted raven, but I do believe if raven told the Officer or Detective, his wife was deceased, he wouldn't have stated raven said hurt. raven HAD to have said hurt or implied hurt with other words.

I still disagree on the first part of your statement. Would it be easier for Raven in a panic to say - "Come quick, my wife's upstairs hurt" or would it be easier for him to say "Come quick - my wife's upstairs, and she's got wounds and there's blood all over the place ..."? He'd probably blurt out - "my wife's hurt". I believe it's a very close (if not direct) quote of what Raven told the officer. But I could be wrong of course.

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

If raven was clueless on how a woman relieves cramp, I may buy into it, but the fact that raven stated she was in this position before, it doesn't make sense.....especially being all dressed with shoes on. Talk about uncomfortable during a major cramping episode!

At 10:30 at night, I would expect that she'd be in bed. And if not in bed, at least in her cramps position on her bedroom floor. Has anyone asked Raven how often she'd assumed this position in the dark office late at night, fully clothed?

 

[hoppyfrog]

On the floor of the unlit office, fully clothed, at 10:30 at night? :waitasec:

I'm sure that all the women who post here could tell story after story about what they and their friends have done to relieve cramps. (NOT that I'm asking to hear the stories!)

I'm NOT saying that JA was indeed having cramps and trying to relieve them, only that I could see how RA would think that. And, if it was dark in the room, he may not have seen that she was fully dressed and had shoes on.

Hoppy

 

[ewwwinteresting]

I still disagree on the first part of your statement. Would it be easier for Raven in a panic to say - "Come quick, my wife's upstairs hurt" or would it be easier for him to say "Come quick - my wife's upstairs, and she's got wounds and there's blood all over the place ..."? He'd probably blurt out - "my wife's hurt". I believe it's a very close (if not direct) quote of what Raven told the officer. But I could be wrong of course.

Well, personally, I hope he was craddling Kaiden and stated, my wife is upstairs, I tried everything to save her but she died.

Since there is NOTHING to indicate anything happened like that, I, too, would believe that the officer quoted raven or came very close to quoting raven. What I do believe is that raven never stated his wife was already dead.

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

I'm sure that all the women who post here could tell story after story about what they and their friends have done to relieve cramps. (NOT that I'm asking to hear the stories!)

True, but when you have cramps, the goal is to make them go away and to try to find some degree of comfort. It seems that it would be more likely to accomplish that in your bed with a hot water bottle, not on a hard floor with your shoes on and your earrings still in. JMO.

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

What I do believe is that raven never stated his wife was already dead.

He might not have realized that she died while he was running around trying to find the cell phone.

 

[hoppyfrog]

Thank you Hoppy.....lot's of info to mull over.

I asked this question earlier but don't think anyone replied and maybe because noone knows the answer, but can a deceased body stay on their knees or would the body have to be in teh process of dying to stay on their knees?

I have no idea.

Could she have been kneeling but with her side/shoulder against a wall or piece of furniture for support?

Also, you said, "If raven stated my wife is upstair dead, passed away, deceased, whatever, the PO wouldn't have stated or implied raven indicated his wife was hurt, don't you think?"

I agree with you, which makes me think he may have made a longer and more ambiguous statement to LE which was shortened or paraphrased to "hurt" in the application for the search warrant.

Hoppy

 

[LTUlegal]

It seems to me that selecting out the word "hurt" is a defense tactic, sort of a sleazy attorney practice, especially when there seems to be no other way out of a case. Tomato/tomato...he did it..raven/rooster/chicken/duck. It walks like a duck, talks like a duck. Raven killed Janet.

eta: jmo and the opinion of many others.

 

[ewwwinteresting]

He might not have realized that she died while he was running around trying to find the cell phone.

Oh, I forgot about that information. JG, I just don't understand how raven could have tried to save her, run around looking for the cell phone, and call 911 in 8 minutes? Wouldn't you try CPR longer than that?

So, let's assume he did not try to save her, but found her and then ran around and called 911......he still is home at TOD?

How does anything else make sense except that raven committed this act.

Hoppy: asked your opinion on the TOD thread....can you help speculate with me on this issue?

 

[hoppyfrog]

I can see giving someone the benefit of the doubt or waiting for physical evidence before making a judgement on guilt. However, to imply that the search warrant may have misquoted Raven or that the statement was the officer's translation of Raven's statement, IMO, is bordering on explaining away important details for the sake of your argument.

I truly admire your search for the truth through facts, and your caution in reaching a decision in your mind without "proven" facts. I think that some of the things that we've discussed ARE questionable. IMO, however, the search warrant application is very straight-forward, and is not something that is thrown together haphazardly in order to get the search started quickly. I believe that the language in the document is as accurate as the investigators can make it, and that they are accountable for the words that they choose to use in those documents.

I guess I don't have as high an opinion of LE as you do. In an ideal world you'd be absolutely correct.

Hoppy

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

I agree with you, which makes me think he may have made a longer and more ambiguous statement to LE which was shortened or paraphrased to "hurt" in the application for the search warrant.

If Raven was allegedly in a panic, and went on and on and on with some ambiguous statement to the responding officer, that would be even MORE reason for me to suspect that he's the perp. What innocent person would stand there babbling a lengthy description of injuries rather than saying "My wife's hurt - HURRY!"

 

[ewwwinteresting]

I have no idea.

Could she have been kneeling but with her side/shoulder against a wall or piece of furniture for support?

Also, you said, "If raven stated my wife is upstair dead, passed away, deceased, whatever, the PO wouldn't have stated or implied raven indicated his wife was hurt, don't you think?"

I agree with you, which makes me think he may have made a longer and more ambiguous statement to LE which was shortened or paraphrased to "hurt" in the application for the search warrant.

Hoppy

Definitely agree with this....PO wouldn't have said hurt if raven indicated dead.

Ohh, didn't think about the body lying against a piece of furniture or wall. raven claims he could see her down the hall in the dark so I wonder how the room was set up and if this would have been possible to see from the hallway.

Don't we have pictures of the office/bedroom somewhere?

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

I guess I don't have as high an opinion of LE as you do. In an ideal world you'd be absolutely correct.

I DO tend to be a bit naive. But at this point, if it comes down to Raven's word or LE's, I'm gonna' put my faith in LE. But I do enjoy the debate.

 

[hoppyfrog]

True, but when you have cramps, the goal is to make them go away and to try to find some degree of comfort. It seems that it would be more likely to accomplish that in your bed with a hot water bottle, not on a hard floor with your shoes on and your earrings still in. JMO.

To each her own.

Hoppy

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

Oh, I forgot about that information. JG, I just don't understand how raven could have tried to save her, run around looking for the cell phone, and call 911 in 8 minutes?

Don't forget that he also kissed Kaiden! That probably adds another 30 seconds or more to his timeline.

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

To each her own.

It took me a while to fully realize where I stood on this case. I totally appreciate and admire your desire to ask questions. I've been there myself.