Theories On What Happened to Caylee Part #6 (New Smoking Gun Theories for DP)

[doogiesgirl]

the tape.

analysis might be able to show if the tape was placed on a living child or not. Maybe not necesarily if the living child was not conscious though....I dont know, is anyone ever knocked out to the point that the body wont struggle to breathe?

for example there would not be a perfect lip print if caylee was awake, there would be licking, biting, etc. even if she was unconscious and bit her lip or vomited...

I hope not. rather see KC walk than know caylee was awake for that.

I can't quit thinking about the tape either. We've had duct tape in our house since I can remember and I just can't believe that anyone handling that wouldn't leave something behind on it. What I mean is even if she wore gloves, whatever kind of gloves they were would leave something behind on the adhesive. I'm thinking now, after my garage/yard sale, where I ran across my hubby's working gloves -- made of a kind of canvas on top and a suede on the palm side, that GA probably had yard/work gloves in the garage too. I am hoping he did, she used them, left her mark on the tape and that they found matching gloves in the house. I just can't see the medical or the household dish gloves working with duct tape. IDK, I didn't sleep last night and I'm rambling but.....I just can't get past the tape right now. JMO

 

[It's Not the Nanny]

I'm hoping LE has figured out that KC set up the "Zenaida" myspace page. It would definitely be another nail in her coffin.

 

[Trailerparkgirl]

I can't help but feel that the paper towels may well be the reason for the DP back on, in conjunction with the autopsy results. Decomp on the towels and their location in the trash bag in the trunk of her car. That completely throws her Zanny the Nanny defense out the window. Add that with the hundreds of other pieces of evidence and her never reporting her child missing. It seems to be coming together rather well for the SA. Who knows what else they have that we haven't been privy to. In this case, I don't see one particular item that makes the case....there are too many to choose from!

u know what? ur right!
because even if they (defense or anthony's) say someone else had KC's car and committed the murder using KC's car....then WHY would this person (aka zanny the nanny) bother to CLEAN kc's car????
it's not zanny's car...so why does she care how clean it is????
those paper towels show SOMEONE tried to clean up that trunk.....most likely someone WHO OWNS THE CAR!!!!!!! because A) they didn't want to drive around with a "stinky" car and B) they didn't want to get caught!
KC owned the car, hence why she tried to clean it! but that didnt work, that's why she abandoned the car....:waitasec:

 

[TallyHo]

The duct tape over the mouth and the nose is evidence that she was not using it to stage a kidnapping. One piece over the mouth to keep Caylee quiet would have been an indication of this. But several pieces placed carefully to include the nose tells me that Casey was either trying to stage a murder or she really murdered her. I believe the autopsy results rule out a staged kidnapping.

 

[KenoshaKid]

I think it has to be something with the finding of the body. They had the DP on the table without a body, so there was enough there already that they felt their case was strong enough. I think its the totality of the circumstantial evidence coupled with the duct tape being over the nose and mouth, tape matching tape, bags and type of laundry bag from the home.

 

[Jolynna]

The layers of tape over Caylee's mouth and nose take away the possibility of an accidental death.

There is no reason to duct tape over a dead child's mouth and nose.

It is overkill for staging.

After death, fluid leaks from the mouth, vagina, rectum and nose because of tension from putrid gas formation in the stomach and intestine caused by bacteria. The same bacteria causes gas formation in tissue creating blisters, and loose, slipping skin.

Caylee was taped up before decompostion.

IMO

 

[nyvictoria]

I am wondering about the gatorade bottle with the little syringe found in it...what if that has Caylee's dna on it? Not saying again it is true...but imagine the defense staring down the jury at trial and saying, "They have no cause of death. The medical examiner says as much..." what would elevate this beyond a typical murder one, etc...? IMO, and I am not for the defense, given that we were dealing with skeletonized bones at the time, what would make the SA put the DP back on the table? Her cleaning up, her doing this or that (KC) does not mean that Caylee was murdered....what could lead the SA to believe there was sufficient cause to believe she was killed...not an accidental death. Not the cover up after the fact. IMO there had to be something found with her remains that led the ME to her own theory and also the SA to put the DP back on the table. I just wonder what that was. Which is the reason for this thread. What could be the smoking gun if there is one?

my bold

I'm curious about the Gatorade bottle, too. Was it just random trash? I don't remember exactly where it was found in relation to the bags but surely tests were done on the bottle, syringe and contents. Did they find DNA? Fingerprints? Saliva? Why haven't we seen the results yet?

 

[beach]

While everyone is contributing amazingly to this thread...I just have to wonder if there is something that points to something more than an accidental death. The DP was put back on the table...even after the medical examiner stated "homicide by undetermined means" which still leaves room for the defense to argue that Caylee died accidentally...if there was any piece of evidence and we are all speculating here...what would it be that would make a jury think that her death was no an accident...not cleaning up after the fact, not disposing of her remains...not even the duct tape...what would be a "smoking gun" that would keep the defense from arguing that Caylee died accidentally and therefore, there is no reason to keep the DP on the table. The DP is on the table for a reason. I threw out a note (subjective and not proven anywhere) from KC to Caylee..what if Caylee tried to fight through the duct tape and her prints or tiny fingernails were on it...there has to be something more...imo...but I could be wrong. I was just using the duct tape and evidence of a "struggle" as one reason...

I understand what and why you are asking, but I'm not sure there is one 'smoking gun' that caused the SA to reinstate the DP. I think it is more the conglomeration of all the evidence - the duct tape, the paper towels, the fact that KC didn't report her missing for 31 days & her behavior during that time, the the fact that Caylee's body was found 15 houses away from her own home, the multitude of lies, the crazy-arse imaginanny excuse...oh lord, i could go on and on and on....

Speaking off of the top of my head here, but I don't see this as much different than the Peterson case in that they didn't have a cause of death, but they asked for and he received the DP.

I'm not sure how the Defense could argue accidental death, except for during the penalty phase if she is convicted. That would fly into the face of everything KC and her attys. have claimed thus far. Don't get me wrong, just because I don't see it, doesn't mean it couldn't be done....I just don't see how they can rectify all the...well, for lack of a better word...BS. It does seem that they have been laying low on the imaginanny theory though.

 

[Valhall]

The layers of tape over Caylee's mouth and nose take away the possibility of an accidental death.

There is no reason to duct tape over a dead child's mouth and nose.

It is overkill for staging.

After death, fluid leaks from the mouth, vagina, rectum and nose because of tension from putrid gas formation in the stomach and intestine caused by bacteria. The same bacteria causes gas formation in tissue creating blisters, and loose, slipping skin.

Back in the day when nurses tied up the mouth with a headscarf and bound the hands and feet, so the body would set right, skin coming off during the procedure was a problem.

The autopsy report indicates Caylee was taped up before decompostion.

IMO

I respectfully disagree. As I have stated a number of times, I believe this could have been a postmortem attempt to stop the fluids that would have been issuing from the nose and mouth. Which would have been more than a trivial act to accomplish. I don't think it is safe to assume the tape was placed either antemortem or perimortem. My disclaimer here is that either of us could be right, but that would also be my point.

 

[USARDOG]

I respectfully disagree. As I have stated a number of times, I believe this could have been a postmortem attempt to stop the fluids that would have been issuing from the nose and mouth. Which would have been more than a trivial act to accomplish. I don't think it is safe to assume the tape was placed either antemortem or perimortem. My disclaimer here is that either of us could be right, but that would also be my point.

Duct tape does not stick well to wet surfaces... it would take some cleaning to get the skin dry enough to stick well, cleaning with something like alcohol because of the lipid content of the fluids.

 

[Jolynna]

I respectfully disagree. As I have stated a number of times, I believe this could have been a postmortem attempt to stop the fluids that would have been issuing from the nose and mouth. Which would have been more than a trivial act to accomplish. I don't think it is safe to assume the tape was placed either antemortem or perimortem. My disclaimer here is that either of us could be right, but that would also be my point.

I gotta disagree and these are my reasons:

By the time a body leaks fluid due to the build up of putrid gas in the stomach and intestines, decomposition is well underway.

The autopsy report specifically said Caylee was clearly taped up before decomposition.

I believe that is the reason Caylee's death was ruled a "homicide" due to undetermined causes rather than just "undetermined".

There is a possibility Casey strangled Caylee with her hands or rope/wire/belt after the duct taping to speed things up. There probably is no possibility the duct tape was not part of the killing procedure, but it may not have been the direct instrument responsible for Caylee's death.

JMO

 

[MissJames]

I just read the first sentence of your post and have to applaud you already :clap: I need consolidation!

Have to go read the rest!

I agree.Every time I open my mouth someone pops up with a piece of evidence I had forgotten about.
It will be great to have the pieces in one place.Thanks Cecy!

 

[Searchfortruth]

the tape.

analysis might be able to show if the tape was placed on a living child or not. Maybe not necesarily if the living child was not conscious though....I dont know, is anyone ever knocked out to the point that the body wont struggle to breathe?

for example there would not be a perfect lip print if caylee was awake, there would be licking, biting, etc. even if she was unconscious and bit her lip or vomited...

I hope not. rather see KC walk than know caylee was awake for that.

I agree that the reason the DP was brought back was the tape.

 

[amysmom]

I think it has to be something with the finding of the body. The had the DP on the table without a body, so there was enough there already that they felt their case was strong enough. I think its the totality of the circumstantial evidence coupled with the duct tape being over the nose and mouth, tape matching tape, bags and type of laundry bag from the home.

IIRC the tape matches the strips on a gas can found at the home along with the A's having the same exact laundry bag (Whitney) sold at Targets (KC's fav store) so possibly they have the receipt or some other proof of purshase for the bag bought 6/15-? & we just don't know about that..Better yet! They have video of her buying the bag like some of the other videos we've seen of her at the Target register..Those clearly show the items so what MORE proof do they need? The manner of taping!! Along with ALL the rest of the very strong evidence against her that should be enough to=DP.

 

[TotallyObsessed]

I keep wondering about the "hair mat" that was talked about in the autopsy. Could it have been a sign of Caylee struggling to breathe with her nose and mouth taped up....her head turning from side to side in a frenzy trying to breathe????? How horrible. DP warranted....

 

[debbie0604]

That has me wondering, too. The medical examiner specifically ruled it a homicide (rather than a potential accident) -- which means that the "silver bullet" evidence of homicide (and as a result, the DP) should be related to what was found in the autopsy, right?

???

The autopsy was ruled "homicide by undetermined means" because Dr. G. only had the skeletal remains. Usually an autopsy includes an "external and internal examination" of the decedent's body, and then the pathologist will also look at the gross and microscopic examination of the soft tissue and organs to try to find out why the person died. She was limited to only the skeleton. Also, LE gave her information that KC had performed searches on her computer in regards to "neck breaking and household weapons" and also told her that they had found high levels of chloroform in her car. Dr. G. looked for any trauma on the bones that may have been the result of past child abuse and found none. The toxicology screens were useless because chloroform dissipates very quickly IIRC through the liver particularly if it has been used once on a person. She was very limited. She could only state that Caylee had died from homicide but by undetermined means even though there was duct tape on her face because she could possibily have also died from drugs and chloroform in addition to the duct tape, but she cannot state that with certainty. She can say with certainty homicide because of the duct tape. The duct tape was placed prior to decomposition because it held the maxilla in place for many months, through a hurricane, and through months of water submersion. The fact that a heart sticker was on the duct tape indicates that it was placed prior to death IMO.

I think the smoking gun for the DP is the multiple layers of duct tape. This was done prior to death IMO in a fit of rage. The heart sticker IMO indicates to me that she was trying to get poor Caylee to shut up. Makes me think of that temper tantrum book that LE found in her room.

Why would she place the tape over her mouth after she starts decomposing? She placed her in two trash bags and a laundry bag and placed her in the woods after decomposition. No need to tape her mouth after she's dead - not that many layers and not that strong either. That doesn't make sense to me.

 

[CarolinaMoon]

I think that if you put together all the results from the autopsy report(s) there is a clear timeline.

1. Caylee's remains would have been skeletonized 2-6 weeks after death. (Approx. June 30 to July 15)

2. The remains were scattered prior to total decomposition; bones from various sections were found in proximity to one another.

3. There was little movement of the remains due to water. Indeed many pieces were found in the muck. They were where they were both pre- and post- Hurricane Faye. (approx. Aug. 19-20)

By the time Roy Kronk first called (Aug. 11) the remains were already strewn around the site. By the time Dominic Casey went on his hunt in November, they were no remains to be simply moved by moving the bag.

The remains were not placed at the site while Casey was in jail.

These are backed up by Dr. Hall's report on the growth of roots through the bag and bones.

There is probably someone here who can do this better than I. I read the reports one at a time over the last couple of days, and these are my general impressions after thinking a bit.

The duct tape was placed on her face before decomposition. Decomposition begins minutes after death (especially in a hot, humid climate). The ODDS are that it was placed on the face perimortem.

 

[Sdavidson11]

I keep wondering about the "hair mat" that was talked about in the autopsy. Could it have been a sign of Caylee struggling to breathe with her nose and mouth taped up....her head turning from side to side in a frenzy trying to breathe????? How horrible. DP warranted....

I believe you are right! I posted some info on the duct tape thread. I always wondered when my real life "tragedy" could come in handy. I was tuct taped on my eyes, mouth and nose while being kidnapped and raped. I was duct taped to a bed with my face covered in duct tape. My hair was matted on the back of my head and the tape and matting had to be cut out. This was from the struggle, rape and moving my head side to side. It would not come off by pulling no matter how hard I tried. The only way to breathe was to keep my composure, move my lips so the tape would release from my nose. With Caylee being not quite 3 ,I just don't think she had the problem solving skills to survive this horrible crime. Justice for Caylee.

 

[LawRig]

The autopsy was ruled "homicide by undetermined means" because Dr. G. only had the skeletal remains. Usually an autopsy includes an "external and internal examination" of the decedent's body, and then the pathologist will also look at the gross and microscopic examination of the soft tissue and organs to try to find out why the person died. She was limited to only the skeleton. Also, LE gave her information that KC had performed searches on her computer in regards to "neck breaking and household weapons" and also told her that they had found high levels of chloroform in her car. Dr. G. looked for any trauma on the bones that may have been the result of past child abuse and found none. The toxicology screens were useless because chloroform dissipates very quickly IIRC through the liver particularly if it has been used once on a person. She was very limited. She could only state that Caylee had died from homicide but by undetermined means even though there was duct tape on her face because she could possibily have also died from drugs and chloroform in addition to the duct tape, but she cannot state that with certainty. She can say with certainty homicide because of the duct tape. The duct tape was placed prior to decomposition because it held the maxilla in place for many months, through a hurricane, and through months of water submersion. The fact that a heart sticker was on the duct tape indicates that it was placed prior to death IMO.

I think the smoking gun for the DP is the multiple layers of duct tape. This was done prior to death IMO in a fit of rage. The heart sticker IMO indicates to me that she was trying to get poor Caylee to shut up. Makes me think of that temper tantrum book that LE found in her room.

Why would she place the tape over her mouth after she starts decomposing? She placed her in two trash bags and a laundry bag and placed her in the woods after decomposition. No need to tape her mouth after she's dead - not that many layers and not that strong either. That doesn't make sense to me.

I agree with the tape scenario as you've laid out here, with the exception of the heart sticker. Casey didn't intend Caylee's body to be found, or any of the bags, etc. When the child was dead, prior to placing in the trunk, prior to dumping at the site where she was found, I believe the heart sticker was as close to saying goodbye/expressing remorse as Casey is able to express. it's the same as the dead pets. Representing goodbye, similar to the burial ritual of the animals of her childhood. I believe that was placed before leaving the home, after the death was done, before bagging. Casey placed that heart on impulse with no more depth of feeling than copying another icon on her MySpace page......because SHE liked it, because it was representative of her feelings at that moment. "love ya" , "buh bye". and it was over and done.

the heart sticker was in keeping with the expressed desire to have a grave site over which to "grieve her child's death" after she "gets out of prison someday". It's a similar display, She's mimicing what she percieves is acceptable for a grieving mommy.

Casey is all about her performance art. The sticker is part of that, and is about as deep as she can feel anything for someone else. In Casey's world, this is love. here.... have a heart sticker honey, mommy loves you. Buh bye.

just my opinion.

 

[TotallyObsessed]

I believe you are right! I posted some info on the duct tape thread. I always wondered when my real life "tragedy" could come in handy. I was tuct taped on my eyes, mouth and nose while being kidnapped and raped. I was duct taped to a bed with my face covered in duct tape. My hair was matted on the back of my head and the tape and matting had to be cut out. This was from the struggle, rape and moving my head side to side. It would not come off by pulling no matter how hard I tried. The only way to breathe was to keep my composure, move my lips so the tape would release from my nose. With Caylee being not quite 3 ,I just don't think she had the problem solving skills to survive this horrible crime. Justice for Caylee.

How horrible. So glad you are alive and well today and survived such a horrendous event.

I have thought that perhaps KC chloroformed Caylee in order to have her unconscious while she place the duct tape on her mouth and nose. Caylee probably woke up and started to struggle. I would not even put it past the monster mother to have watched and when it was all over, placed the heart sticker there on the duct tape to seal the deal.....