Things that are Plaguing Me

[BBB167893]

If JR staged a murder in the basement, he would've wanted LE to go there to see it.

Sure.

It would make no sense for him to stage the basement and then remove JBR from it as an afterthought.

"Afterthought?" There's a big difference between Plan B and Afterthought.

He wouldn't move her for fear of changing the staged forensic evidence.

As I've tried to explain, that may not be why he did it. He didn't really have a choice. The police were about to leave. What was he going to do, drop hints about something being in the basement? Moreover, it's a good way to explain why your OWN forensic evidence might be there, especially with witnesses to say you did what you did. You're just not seeing the big picture.

He would've called LE to the basement instead of handling JBR.

I imagine if you take a poll, you'll find that many of us take the fact that he DIDN'T call LE to the basement as a sign of guilt. But more to the point, would not any "grief-stricken father" have done what he did? You said so yourself: "like any parent would."
I'm telling you, Holdon-I've been over all this in my mind at least a hundred times, and it all comes out the same way.

[/QUOTE] There's no advantage and no need to move her away from the staged crime scene.[/QUOTE]

I can think of one, and I've explained it over and over in the last 24 hours.

Of course, the most obvious scenario is this: LA became suspicious when no phone call came, and so LA asked JR to look around the house again. He did so, and went for more obscure places where he hadn't already gone. He found JBR and made an attempt to revive her, like any parent would. The events are very consistent with this scenario.

Except for a few problems. One, he didn't just go for more obscure places. He went straight for the basement room. Two, he looked into the same room FW did in the dark, but could see the body when FW couldn't. As FW said, he screamed, THEN turned on the light. So, working those factors into it, the rest of it sounds more like a performance.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Except for a few problems. One, he didn't just go for more obscure places. He went straight for the basement room. Two, he looked into the same room FW did in the dark, but could see the body when FW couldn't. As FW said, he screamed, THEN turned on the light. So, working those factors into it, the rest of it sounds more like a performance.

The basement IS the most obscure, most remote place, which makes these statements seem somewhat self-contradictory.

Its clear that at every opportunity, RDI characterizes actions in a guilty way. It doesn't matter what action, when, or with whom, its all characterized in a guilty fashion.

The oft repeated idea that 'he went straight to JBR so he could show her to LE before they left' seems trite, and hardly fits with this factual reality: LE had ASKED JR to search, and prior to that request, he WASN'T. He could've searched and came up with JBR whenever, if he was so anxious for LE leaving.

 

[ShesElectric]

I have to agree with Holdontoyourhat, after careful consideration.
Basically, if you were told to search the house again after Officer French
and Fleet White had already done so hours prior, then you would most likely
be looking in obscure places.
John would have remembered he had broken the basement window
back in the summer of 96', so the thought of the basement would have
probably creeped into his mind.
I've looked at floor plans of the Ramsey home, and the wine cellar seems
pretty much the most remote and unconspicuous area of the tudar house.



Connor

 

[Motherof5]

I do think the thought of the basement window did creep into JR's mind,but I think he was thinking that not fixing that window sure has come in handy.

 

[JMO8778]

..yes,and he made sure to point that window out to FW *before moving on to the WC to 'find' the body.he didn't quite just go straight to the body,like some claim.

 

[Egoslayer]

jw - what reasons did patsy give that JB was better off dead?

 

[Ames]

Lately I have taken some time to read about Jon Benet and the Ramsey’s, mostly out of curiosity. I have read as much as I can on various web sites, blogs, wiki's and forums and a few things are seriously bothering me.

Before 5:52 AM Parents Checked on Burke. "After hearing Mrs. Ramsey's scream, Mr. Ramsey ran downstairs and met Mrs. Ramsey in the stairwell. Together, they checked on their son who appeared to be asleep in his room. (SMF P 18; PSMF P 18.)".

This is the major detail I am having issues with right now. I have a 9 month old son and an 11 year old son. As a mother, if I awoke, as PR did, to a RN on my stairs at Pre-6am that stated that my youngest son had been kidnapped, I WOULD NOT leave my 11 (10) y/o son to sleep. My first instinct, after checking the baby’s room and calling for my husband, would be to check my eldest son’s room as PR/JR are said to have done. However I would have woken him up, asked him if he had seen his brother, checked every inch of his room, asked if he was playing a joke, ransacked his closet, the baby’s closet, every inch of the baby’s room. I would have had my 11 y/o son up and out of bed, as traumatic as it may well have been; he would have helped us look. Additionally, I would have scoured EVERY single room and closet, cupboard and spare room in our house. I would have read over the RN again and again in a flurry. Then again in the heat of things it's hard to know exactly what anyone would have done. I know for certain that I would not have left my 11 y/o sleeping thinking that that was the safest place for him. Perhaps he had heard something or seen something. That is a serious family emergency. Not exactly something he should just sleep through even though he is just a child.


As for John finding JBR and carrying her up from the wine cellar, what better way to innocently “accidentally” contaminate the crime scene and her body? Removing the duct tape, denying LE the opportunity to photograph or analyse the crime scene. This could be construed two ways for me. One, JR was very upset and wanted to see if he could help her. He did just find his daughter in the worst way possible so thinking about cops taking photos and investigating untouched evidence was probably not on the forefront of his mind. Yet, it is widely known that when told to look through the house by LE, JR immediately went to the basement and found JBR. Is this a coincidence? Did he just start at the bottom, intending to work his way to the top? Or did he want to be the one to find her so that he could make sure nothing was out of place? Lastly, who trained the BPD? Why on earth would law enforcement ask the Ramsey’s and their friends to search the house? Is that typical? Am I wrong in thinking that that isn’t really all that professional?

I may well be completely off base with some of these issues, but as I mentioned, these are things that have been bothering me lately about this case. I have been rolling that morning over and over in my mind. How I would have reacted and tried to place myself in the shoes of PR/JR and something just doesn’t make sense to me.

These things have bothered me too! If it had of been a REAL kidnapping, and the kidnappers were REALLY watching them (as the RN said), then IMO, the Ramseys would not only be jerking Burke out of the bed to ask him if he had seen or heard ANYTHING, but they would have also made him leave his room, in fear that the "kidnapper" may have been hiding under Burke's bed, or in his closet. See, if it had of been MY child, and I had of ran in to check on him, and then told him what was going on, and asked him if he had of seen or heard anything, because his sister had been kidnapped, he would have jumped up and ran out of his room, on his own...and got the heck outta there. But no, the Ramseys see fit to just let him sleep. Poor Burke, you know he must have been worn out from the previous days festivities. He NEEDED his rest . And THAT, it seems...was way WAY more important to the Rams, than possibly finding out any info about their missing daughter, or removing their son from the room that the "kidnapper" could be possibly hiding in. IMO...this seems so odd, that the only possible reason for it, is because there was no kidnapper/killer/small foreign faction member.

The fact that John searched the basement first, is weird too. Wouldn't the first place that you would search, be the last place that you saw your daughter. In this case...her bedroom?? I know that they claim to have searched the entire house before authorities arrived, but if that had of been the last place that they saw her alive..then, they...imo...would have have checked it FIRST, again...maybe the missed something the first time.

 

[Ames]

jw - what reasons did patsy give that JB was better off dead?

Because now JB wouldn't experience cancer (like Patsy) or the death of her child (like Patsy). It was a stupid thing for her to say.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

These things have bothered me too! If it had of been a REAL kidnapping, and the kidnappers were REALLY watching them (as the RN said), then IMO, the Ramseys would not only be jerking Burke out of the bed to ask him if he had seen or heard ANYTHING, but they would have also made him leave his room, in fear that the "kidnapper" may have been hiding under Burke's bed, or in his closet. See, if it had of been MY child, and I had of ran in to check on him, and then told him what was going on, and asked him if he had of seen or heard anything, because his sister had been kidnapped, he would have jumped up and ran out of his room, on his own...and got the heck outta there. But no, the Ramseys see fit to just let him sleep. Poor Burke, you know he must have been worn out from the previous days festivities. He NEEDED his rest . And THAT, it seems...was way WAY more important to the Rams, than possibly finding out any info about their missing daughter, or removing their son from the room that the "kidnapper" could be possibly hiding in. IMO...this seems so odd, that the only possible reason for it, is because there was no kidnapper/killer/small foreign faction member.

The fact that John searched the basement first, is weird too. Wouldn't the first place that you would search, be the last place that you saw your daughter. In this case...her bedroom?? I know that they claim to have searched the entire house before authorities arrived, but if that had of been the last place that they saw her alive..then, they...imo...would have have checked it FIRST, again...maybe the missed something the first time.

It is obvious from reading this that the RN is being disregarded. Its as if because RDI disregards the RN that both JR and LA would've disregarded it also.

Fact is, the RN stated 'your daughter is safe and unharmed' and 'we have your daughter'. The idea of searching JBR's room, or any other room, for JBR seems stupid in the face of the RN, don't you think? Contrary to RDI belief, the thought of searching every corner of the house never entered JR's mind until LA told him to do it.

Besides, not knowing exactly what LA's words were to JR when she ASKED him to look around, presumes that she simply said something like 'check the house, and start with JBR's room. Maybe she's just hiding in there, after all this is a bogus RN, right?'

 

[BBB167893]

The basement IS the most obscure, most remote place, which makes these statements seem somewhat self-contradictory.

You don't get what I mean. It was as if he KNEW where to go.

Its clear that at every opportunity, RDI characterizes actions in a guilty way. It doesn't matter what action, when, or with whom, its all characterized in a guilty fashion.

If an action appears guilty, you're darn right I'll characterize it that way. You just aren't seeing the big picture.

The oft repeated idea that 'he went straight to JBR so he could show her to LE before they left' seems trite, and hardly fits with this factual reality: LE had ASKED JR to search, and prior to that request, he WASN'T.

He didn't have as good an opportunity, is what I'm saying. And LE never should have asked in the first place, but since they did, wouldn't it have made sense to, oh, I don't know, TAKE one of them WITH him if he were in fact innocent?

He could've searched and came up with JBR whenever, if he was so anxious for LE leaving.

Ah, thereby hangs a tale, Holdon. Just WHERE did he disappear to that morning? And why? Was it to do exactly as you suggest? Cogitate on that one.

 

[BBB167893]

I do think the thought of the basement window did creep into JR's mind,but I think he was thinking that not fixing that window sure has come in handy.

My sentiments exactly.

 

[BBB167893]

jw - what reasons did patsy give that JB was better off dead?

Ames is right: she would never suffer cancer or experience the death of a child. In other words, she wouldn't have Patsy's life. (I suspect that she already had lived part of Patsy's life and that's why she ended up dead.)

 

[Ames]

It is obvious from reading this that the RN is being disregarded. Its as if because RDI disregards the RN that both JR and LA would've disregarded it also.

Fact is, the RN stated 'your daughter is safe and unharmed' and 'we have your daughter'. The idea of searching JBR's room, or any other room, for JBR seems stupid in the face of the RN, don't you think? Contrary to RDI belief, the thought of searching every corner of the house never entered JR's mind until LA told him to do it.

Besides, not knowing exactly what LA's words were to JR when she ASKED him to look around, presumes that she simply said something like 'check the house, and start with JBR's room. Maybe she's just hiding in there, after all this is a bogus RN, right?'

No, I don't think that it would have been stupid for the Ramsey's to search JB's room, or any other room. Just because the RN said that JB was safe and unharmed....doesn't mean that they couldn't have at least looked for clues. I didn't say that they should have checked her room first, just in case the "kidnapper" left her body there, or if she was hiding under the bed. The parents of a child that had of REALLY been kidnapped...and they had found a RN stating that she was safe and unharmed...would have went looking for CLUES, not the child.

 

[DeeDee249]

Ames is right: she would never suffer cancer or experience the death of a child. In other words, she wouldn't have Patsy's life. (I suspect that she already had lived part of Patsy's life and that's why she ended up dead.)

And once again, Patsy made it all about Patsy. Even the death of her daughter.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

No, I don't think that it would have been stupid for the Ramsey's to search JB's room, or any other room. Just because the RN said that JB was safe and unharmed....doesn't mean that they couldn't have at least looked for clues. I didn't say that they should have checked her room first, just in case the "kidnapper" left her body there, or if she was hiding under the bed. The parents of a child that had of REALLY been kidnapped...and they had found a RN stating that she was safe and unharmed...would have went looking for CLUES, not the child.

Wha?? No they wouldn't. I wouldn't. Who needs clues when you've got a RN staring you in the face that says they've got your kid and they want money?

There's your clue.

 

[JMO8778]

..and you'd be clueless to just sit there and believe it.no caring parent would be so passive as to find a note that says someone or someones has their child,that she is safe and unharmed...and would just be passive enough believe it.every horrible thought possible would enter their mind.and YES,i'd be looking for clues as well...what's missing?? ..did the perp or perps DROP anything???if you don't think criminals are stupid or careless,try watching a few true crime or cop shows.they can and do leave anything and everything behind sometimes! things don't always go according to plan,and denial,for a parent..is at the top of the list.who wants to believe their child is really missing???
and btw,JR would have been OUTSIDE the house,looking for clues..footprints,for example..if JB had really been missing!!

 

[Ames]

Wha?? No they wouldn't. I wouldn't. Who needs clues when you've got a RN staring you in the face that says they've got your kid and they want money?

There's your clue.

Obviously you have no children. Because if you did, and your child had been kidnapped from her room, you would be looking to see if the kidnapper may have dropped anything, so that you could give it to investigators for them to have something to go on. Anything..anything at all.

 

[Ames]

..and you'd be clueless to just sit there and believe it.no caring parent would be so passive as to find a note that says someone or someones has their child,that she is safe and unharmed...and would just be passive enough believe it.every horrible thought possible would enter their mind.and YES,i'd be looking for clues as well...what's missing?? ..did the perp or perps DROP anything???if you don't think criminals are stupid or careless,try watching a few true crime or cop shows.they can and do leave anything and everything behind sometimes! things don't always go according to plan,and denial,for a parent..is at the top of the list.who wants to believe their child is really missing???
and btw,JR would have been OUTSIDE the house,looking for clues..footprints,for example..if JB had really been missing!!

EXACTLY!!! And what does John do? By his OWN admission...in his 98 interview (Hold can look it up), he states that he DID go outside....for 30 seconds! 30 whole seconds...what the heck did he think to accomplish in that short amount of time. It wasn't 30 minutes, it was 30 SECONDS.

 

[JMO8778]

yes and he didn't even look for tire tracks,or ask the neighbors if they'd seen or heard anything...I'd be knocking on doors,before LE even arrived! But no...the R's just wanted friends around as witnesses,and to buffer them from LE.

 

[Ames]

yes and he didn't even look for tire tracks,or ask the neighbors if they'd seen or heard anything...I'd be knocking on doors,before LE even arrived! But no...the R's just wanted friends around as witnesses,and to buffer them from LE.

Right again! I would be looking for any and everything out of place, or clues, such as tire tracks too. It baffles me (not really THAT baffling considering, there was NO KIDNAPPER) why he didn't at LEAST start knocking on some doors, to find out what if anything the neighbors saw. (He could have at least done this to make it LOOK GOOD). I have said this many times before, if you do a Google Earth search, you will see that the houses that neighborhood, are thisclose. For the longest time, I thought that the Rams lived on acres and acres...without another neighbor around for miles. I soon found out how wrong I was. He could of at least knocked on some doors. (That is what I did when my four year old went missing....well THAT, and ran up and down the street screaming her name).