THIS article says what I believe about the motive for the murder and who the perp was

[DeeDee249]

I've never heard that.....and if there was an accident, she was always cleaned up quickly. The bowel movement accidents are another urban legend....It didn't happen on a regular basis.

Not an urban legend at all. They happened regularly. Police even discussed a crime photo where fecal matter was clearly seen inside the crotch of clothing on the floor. ALL of her panties had fecal stains with one exception- the pair she had on when her body was found.

 

[SyraKelly]

This may be a dumb question- But I am going to ask it anyway-LOL- is the motive suppose to be PR religion?
I always thought it was JB's bed wetting accidents!

 

[circulon]

This is interesting. I have always wondered if John really had anything to do with it. Remembering that his demeanour did change when he came back from "checking the mail" just makes you wonder. But if he really had nothing to do with it, WHY did and does he protect her? Surely if your wife killed your little girl, that would be enough to make you question your love or something like that.


---
I am here: [ame="http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=-38.163313,145.116838"]Google Maps[/ame]

 

[claudicici]

I have always thought the most logical explanation is exactly what the article describes.The crime matches PR's personality so closely,I am convinced she was reliving a past trauma and had to sacrifice JB in her mind.I don't think she ever separated herself from JB,JB was just an extension of herself.I think anyone who read her premonitions in the Ramsey book should see how this theory is very,very plausible.
I never really thought JR was involved either and I think his protection of his wife can also be explained by their religion.Just listen to the interview he gave to the 700 club.

 

[claudicici]

I found this webpage regarding the "religious elements" in this murder.
I thought it was very telling to see it all laid out on one page.
http://ruthees_library.tripod.com/psalm.html

 

[Maikai]

I found this webpage regarding the "religious elements" in this murder.
I thought it was very telling to see it all laid out on one page.
http://ruthees_library.tripod.com/psalm.html

Holy cow....someone has too much time on their hands.......thank you...hadn't seen that one before!

 

[Sabot]

The Religious angle doesn't ring true. No God fearing person would sacrifice their own child to save themselves from Cancer. Only a Satanist would believe that this could work. Which it obviously didn't.
And besides, Easter would have been a better time, don't you think?

Sorry for any perceived sarcasm. The whole case was weird, but foreign DNA was found.

 

[DeeDee249]

Holy cow....someone has too much time on their hands.......thank you...hadn't seen that one before!

Actually, Ruthee has all the time in the world- she died some years ago. It'd be interesting to hear what she would have to say on this case today.

 

[Whaleshark]

The Religious angle doesn't ring true.

You do realize that Patsy thought that she was cured from cancer by a miracle from god right?

You know she also believed that she brought death into her house and had visions of JBR's death before it happened?

You know she yelled out for god to raise her child from death like Lazarus, right?

Everything about Patsy at this point was a religious angle. It has to be factored in.

No God fearing person would sacrifice their own child to save themselves from Cancer. Only a Satanist would believe that this could work.

You don't know what every god-fearing person would do. And as noted in the Jeff Shapiro article in the beginning of this thread, evangelical, mystical beliefs in that religion, where people believe in prophecy and visions, and the literal meaning of the bible, can use scripture as excuses for their behavior, and even evolve into a satanic type-worship or justify otherwise incomprehensible acts. Your words may be truer than you know.

And besides, Easter would have been a better time, don't you think?

Could be. Maybe it didn't need to be Easter only though. Maybe whatever she believed in her mind happened this way for a reason.

From the 700 Club interview:
http://www.cbn.com/700club/scottross/interviews/jonbenet2.aspx

SCOTT: Okay. Ninety-six percent of people who come to that stage of cancer die. You lived. Now if I understand correctly, you believe you were supernaturally healed by God.

PATSY: Yes, I do.

SCOTT: Is there documentation to go along with that?

PATSY: Yes there is. As a matter of fact I just received a letter from my original oncologist here in Atlanta. He unequivocally believes, knowing where I was and where I am now, there was divine intervention. That was in writing.

So, once you realize that Patsy absolutely 100% believed that she was healed of cancer by a direct miracle from god, it is not too far-fetched to believe that she thought JonBenet could be raised from the dead just like she believed Lazarus was raised by a miracle from Jesus. It might even begin to make sense that the wine cellar was perhaps a tomb that Patsy put JBR in, wrapped in a blanket (white burial shroud, perhaps?), with her favorite things: barbie nightgown, dolls and all....

 

[KoldKase]

Blah! Dodie Osteen is the mother of Joel Osteen.....he refers to her healing from cancer all the time in his services. How many of his followers have garotted their child and hit her over the head with the force of a 350 pound football player?

I haven't seen anyone argue that the believers in healing by faith all murder their children. Your extrapolation is not logical.

As for the oft repeated myth that the head blow needed a 350 lb. football player's strength, it's based in a misquote of what was actually said by Dr. Cyril Wecht in 1997. The original quote essentially contemplated that the head blow which cleaved JonBenet's skull nearly in half could have felled a 300 lb. ball player. That's a different thing entirely. Since children of 6 years have skulls with more fragile bone than adults, the blow actually did more damage than it would have to a healthy adult of any size.

Here's the article with the actual quote from Dr. Wecht:

Almost Entire JonBenet Autopsy Report Released

By CHARLIE BRENNAN
Scripps Howard News Service

BOULDER, Colo. -- JonBenet Ramsey suffered physical abuse near her genitals, but an expert stopped short Monday of saying that she was sexually assaulted.

Almost the entire autopsy report on the slain child beauty queen was released Monday after the state Supreme Court declined to review two lower court rulings that it should be unsealed.

But Dr. Richard Krugman, dean of the University of Colorado School of Medicine and a consultant to Boulder investigators trying to solve the 6-year-old's murder, said the report doesn't offer a conclusive answer to some of the biggest questions that remain about the Christmas night murder.

Was she sexually assaulted? Did she die because of the cord buried deep in the flesh of her neck, or because of her severely fractured skull?

Krugman isn't sure of the answer to either question. But he said he is certain that she was physically abused.

''I know nothing that I have seen that would make me think the primary finding is sexual abuse,'' Krugman said.

The autopsy reported finding a small amount of dried blood around the girl's vagina, scrapes inside and on the exterior of her genitals and a scrape on the child's hymen.

''I'd want to get more of (JonBenet's) history and find out what was going on,'' Krugman said. ''But that, by itself, does not tell me there was sexual abuse.

''I look at this and see a child who was physically abused and is dead. I don't believe it's possible to tell whether any child is sexually abused based on physical findings alone.''

Typically, Krugman said, sexual abuse of a child is confirmed through the presence of semen, evidence of a sexually transmitted disease or the child's history.

JonBenet's parents, John and Patsy Ramsey, issued a statement saying they haven't seen the autopsy report but aren't surprised by it.

''We have not had the opportunity to review the autopsy report, but credible experts who have, confirm what we have been saying all along, that there is no evidence of abuse or molestation prior to the night of her murder,'' they said through a representative.

But Dr. Cyril Wecht, county coroner for Pittsburgh and surrounding communities, strongly disagreed with Krugman's assessment.

''I am totally flabbergasted by what I am hearing,'' said Wecht, who reviewed the report Monday. ''How anybody can say, with the blood and the abrasions, that this was not sexual assault ... what is he talking about?''

Wecht also called attention to a tear in the hymen, which he said appeared to be old. ''My belief is that there was fresh, acute, sexual assault, and my belief is that there is evidence of older sexual assault.''

Wecht also said the description of the skull fracture, which ran from the front of the girl's head across the crown to the rear, indicated use of an elongated instrument such as a golf club or heavy flashlight, and that the unknown weapon was wielded with enough brute force to bring down a ''300-pound football player.''

JonBenet, who weighed just 45 pounds when she died, was found strangled and her skull fractured in her parents' basement the afternoon of Dec. 26.

Early that day, Patsy Ramsey reported finding a ransom note demanding $118,000 for the girl's safe return on back stairs in the family's $1 million-plus home.

No arrests have been made in the case. Boulder District Attorney Alex Hunter has labeled Patsy and John Ramsey the focus of the investigation, but JonBenet's parents, who are moving to Atlanta, have proclaimed their innocence.

The entire autopsy report had been sealed upon its completion Dec. 27, due to officials' concerns that disclosure of certain details could jeopardize the troubled murder investigation. But Boulder District Judge Carol Glowinsky ruled Feb. 14 that a censored version could be made public.

On May 15, in response to a motion by media lawyers, Glowinsky dismissed a police argument that their case was still in its sensitive ''early stages '' She said all but six very brief passages in the report should come open immediately and that all of it should be public by Aug. 13.

It's that ruling that Boulder Deputy County Attorney Madeline Mason appealed without success to the Colorado Court of Appeals, and which the state's highest court declined to review Monday.

While uncertainty remained over the issue of possible sexual assault, the autopsy left little doubt as to the violence of her death.

The autopsy report noted bruises and scrapes reaching from her scalp down to one ankle, a severe fracture to the right side of her skull and accompanying bleeding in her brain. It also noted that the garrote with which she was strangled left a deep furrow around the circumference of her neck.

Krugman saw nothing in the autopsy report that gave an indication as to whether JonBenet's head injury or strangling came first, or who might have been responsible.

''The problem is,'' he said, ''if a child dies in the middle of the night and there are several adults around, it's impossible to tell from an autopsy who did it,'' he said.

''The only way you get that is from an interview and a confession.''

(Charlie Brennan writes for the Rocky Mountain News in Denver.)

July 15, 1997

As for your next statement, again it is based on out and out foolishness put forth by Team Ramsey and, incredulously enough, then repeated by Alex Hunter himself on several media occasions. If you track this down, you'll find that Hunter was quoting none other than Team Ramsey.

Patsy's handwriting scored 4.5 out of 5.0 and was analyzed by a professional in the field, with 5.0 being not the writer.

In reality, there was no scale with a score of "5" used by expert handwriting analysts, nor did Patsy score 4.5 on it. It was pure disinformation. There is more than adequate discussion with sources for you to find the truth of this matter.

Gary Olivia wrote a grievance when he was in jail, and I was stunned when I compared it to the ransom note. There were numerous similarities, down to misspellings of two words with double consonants. His DNA did not match.

I haven't seen this writing sample of Oliva's. Perhaps you could provide a link or source so we can make our own comparisons to follow your theory? Aunt Pam told a reporter when Patsy died that Patsy had her "Victory." Does that make Aunt Pam a suspect?

The DNA is good enough for the Boulder police to discount suspects...it is good enough to be in the database. It shouldn't be minimized.

I think it's more that the DNA is used as a final test to eliminate suspects when no other physical evidence links them to the murder. Since the only significant evidence not linking the Ramseys to the murder is the DNA, which is very likely to be artifact or contamination in the processing of the evidence, they can't be eliminated by it. Not in the real world of criminal investigation, at any rate. In Boulder they had no problem having a mountain of evidence OTHER than the DNA leading straight to them and getting a pass and a love letter from not one, but two DAs.

 

[Tricia]

Thank You KoldKase. Now we can put the 350 pound man myth to rest FINALLY.

 

[Maikai]

the religious angle doesn't ring true. No god fearing person would sacrifice their own child to save themselves from cancer. Only a satanist would believe that this could work. Which it obviously didn't.
And besides, easter would have been a better time, don't you think?

Sorry for any perceived sarcasm. The whole case was weird, but foreign dna was found.

amen...hallelujuiah

 

[Maikai]

Actually, Ruthee has all the time in the world- she died some years ago. It'd be interesting to hear what she would have to say on this case today.

Ruthee wrote that? I haven't had time to read through it....must have missed the author in my brief perusal.

 

[Maikai]

I haven't seen this writing sample of Oliva's. Perhaps you could provide a link or source so we can make our own comparisons to follow your theory? Aunt Pam told a reporter when Patsy died that Patsy had her "Victory." Does that make Aunt Pam a suspect?

I'll see if I can find it. I've moved 3 times since I obtained a copy of it when I was in Boulder--I don't know if I kept it. I had requested his file at the courthouse, I believe. I didn't post it on the internet. I also remember there were some phrases used in the grievance similar to the ransom note. The thought occurred to me that perhaps he purposely mimicked the ransom note because by then it had been made public.....especially since there were two words with double consonants. The purpose of the grievance was to complain about someone in authority in the jail---this person was staring at him.

 

[claudicici]

And besides, Easter would have been a better time, don't you think?

IMO PR thought the same thing.Don't you find it a least bit strange that she decorated Christmas in the purple easter colors?
IMO she felt time was running out and she could not wait for Easter.IMO she did not sacrifice JB to cure herself from cancer ,IMO she sacrificed JB so she would not have to go through the same abuse as PR IMO had.IMO PR thought she was dying soon and would be reunited with JB very soon.
I also think she thought Christmas would be just more dramatic and beautiful and memorable for the occasion.

 

[Sabot]

You do realize that Patsy thought that she was cured from cancer by a miracle from god right?

You know she also believed that she brought death into her house and had visions of JBR's death before it happened?

You know she yelled out for god to raise her child from death like Lazarus, right?

Everything about Patsy at this point was a religious angle. It has to be factored in.



You don't know what every god-fearing person would do. And as noted in the Jeff Shapiro article in the beginning of this thread, evangelical, mystical beliefs in that religion, where people believe in prophecy and visions, and the literal meaning of the bible, can use scripture as excuses for their behavior, and even evolve into a satanic type-worship or justify otherwise incomprehensible acts. Your words may be truer than you know.



Could be. Maybe it didn't need to be Easter only though. Maybe whatever she believed in her mind happened this way for a reason.

From the 700 Club interview:
http://www.cbn.com/700club/scottross/interviews/jonbenet2.aspx

SCOTT: Okay. Ninety-six percent of people who come to that stage of cancer die. You lived. Now if I understand correctly, you believe you were supernaturally healed by God.

PATSY: Yes, I do.

SCOTT: Is there documentation to go along with that?

PATSY: Yes there is. As a matter of fact I just received a letter from my original oncologist here in Atlanta. He unequivocally believes, knowing where I was and where I am now, there was divine intervention. That was in writing.

So, once you realize that Patsy absolutely 100% believed that she was healed of cancer by a direct miracle from god, it is not too far-fetched to believe that she thought JonBenet could be raised from the dead just like she believed Lazarus was raised by a miracle from Jesus. It might even begin to make sense that the wine cellar was perhaps a tomb that Patsy put JBR in, wrapped in a blanket (white burial shroud, perhaps?), with her favorite things: barbie nightgown, dolls and all....

This is a really interesting post. Should we now factor in the man who was supposedly prepared to sacrifice his son at God's request? Sorry, can't remember his name.
I suppose it might depend on how crackers Patsy Ramsey was.
I have my own conception of A God, and I can't say that The Bible much comes into it, beyond being some sort of guide to how we should try to live our lives. But The Old Testament is a bit bloody.

The whole Case disturbs me because there is much that doesn't make sense, and I agree that suspicions are there to be found. I find the whole Beauty Pageant thing extremely distasteful, and cannot begin to imagine why the child's Father allowed it. I am assuming that her Mother was crackers to begin with. Which hardly points to God Fearing.
Did Patsy Ramsey think that if she sacrificed her daughter that she was offering her commitment to her God, and that her God would miraculously bring the child back to life? After God had cured her, of course.

I can hardly believe that I am typing this, or even engaging in such thoughts, but the opinions offered are respectful, if that is the correct word.

I don't even remotely understand how the mind of any Fundamentalist works, but there are extremists in all religions. However, if Patsy Ramsey did this then it would have been entirely self motivated. Again, hardly God Fearing. In which case you could say that God got her in the end. But I am not sure that I believe this because I don't think that God has the time or patience to deal with individuals. We all destroy ourselves in the end, if this is our motivation.

So, can someone give me some explanation for the foreign DNA?

PS. Bed Wetting and possible Defecations are only signs of a disturbed child. Or even some sort of food allergy. The less fuss you make of it then the better

Thanks for a really interesting Thread.

 

[Sabot]

amen...hallelujuiah

Thanks, but I am beginning to wonder. I guess that I automatically react against unfounded allegations because they do so much harm if they are wrong.
But Patsy Ramsey is dead now, so no more harm can be done to her.

My immediate response to this Case was to suspect Patsy Ramsey, but I kept that to myself. And then I decided that The Ramseys were being treated unfairly, mainly by Internet Gouls. They are the curse of The Planet because they think nothing of what they say, or of the harm that they do.

Now? I have to accept that there were some very strange goings on.

 

[Sabot]

IMO PR thought the same thing.Don't you find it a least bit strange that she decorated Christmas in the purple easter colors?
IMO she felt time was running out and she could not wait for Easter.IMO she did not sacrifice JB to cure herself from cancer ,IMO she sacrificed JB so she would not have to go through the same abuse as PR IMO had.IMO PR thought she was dying soon and would be reunited with JB very soon.
I also think she thought Christmas would be just more dramatic and beautiful and memorable for the occasion.

I cannot begin to imagine why anyone would decorate a Christmas Tree with Purple.
And Yes, I can see why Patsy Ramsey might think that time was running out.
But what person in their right mind would take a young child to meet them in death?
I can't get my head around subjecting that small girl to The Beauty Pageant Circuit. But then I am a bit old fashioned.

 

[KoldKase]

I have spent nearly 6 decades in the South, born n' bred, as they say. Many generations of GRITS.

So I can understand the religious fervor Patsy had, though I don't share her religious beliefs.

I'm still not able to accept that Patsy planned this murder, though. I will have to see evidence which convinces me that was the case, and I haven't seen it yet.

For one thing, while we don't know who was sexually abusing JonBenet. Yes, it could have been some horrible ritual or torture Patsy performed in some state of mental illness--sadly, it's not uncommon; but I have not seen the evidence that proves it was her and not someone else from the inner circle. As mentioned, statistically it was far more likely a young male. If it were John Ramsey, then there must have been others before JonBenet, as pedophiles don't just suddenly develop their desires to molest in middle age.

So I'm always stuck on this because, contrary to the endless accusations that those of us who believe the Ramseys are the culprits come to our conclusions out of some hate we pulled from nowhere, I actually entirely follow what the evidence tells me. What the prior molestation tells me is no more nor less than someone close to JonBenet, who had enough private access to her before that night to molest her on more than one occasion, was sexually abusing her. The manner and reason I can guess at, using the medical evidence, but guessing doesn't give me proof of whom it was beyond a reasonable doubt.

I will share this with you, hoping that our beloved FFJ poster Cherokee won't mind. She has stated as clear a picture of Patsy's state of mind as I've seen, and we've all followed all the books, article, interviews, and interrogations for 15 years, so this isn't something devised from nothing. Cherokee's take on Patsy's psyche mirrors Shapiro's, as well. Thank you, Cherokee: brilliant.

[ame="http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?p=188265#post188265"]Tonight (12/26/11) 9 pm EST -A special Jonbenet Ramsey show on Websleuths radio! - Forums For Justice[/ame]

For many years, I've known that Patsy wrote the ransom note. It is what has kept me involved with the case all this time. People and theories and alleged evidence has come and gone, but that one fact remained the same. As a parent, what I could not reconcile was how Patsy could have possibly brought herself to write that note with her child's dead body in the basement. Finally, the answer came to me after seeing Patsy's last public interview (conducted in April 2004). Patsy stated unequivocably that at six years old, JonBenet had fulfilled her purpose on earth. Patsy went on to emphasize there had been so many people who had been touched by JonBenet spiritually, and expounded on her belief that JonBenet had brought them to salvation. How this actually took place, Patsy never explained. It was obvious from Patsy's words that she was totally convinced of her rationalization for JonBenet's death. In Patsy's mind, it was worth it! That glimpse into Patsy's psyche helped me see the Patsy who practiced, and then wrote, the mother of all ransom notes. Patsy could justify ANYTHING, even the death of her little girl, whether it was hours or years previously. Perfect Patsy in her perfect life could put shinola on any situation. It was her way of survival.

 

[KoldKase]

[snip]

The whole Case disturbs me because there is much that doesn't make sense, and I agree that suspicions are there to be found. I find the whole Beauty Pageant thing extremely distasteful, and cannot begin to imagine why the child's Father allowed it. I am assuming that her Mother was crackers to begin with. Which hardly points to God Fearing.

[snip]

Here is an excerpt from an article written in 2008 about the case, but more specifically about John Ramsey. While it's entirely biased in favor of the Ramsey's innocence, it still contains some interesting info we hadn't seen before. To your question of how John Ramsey felt about the pageants, there is an interview with a close Ramsey friend, the wife of John's pilot in Boulder. Mrs. Pam Archuleta (now divorced) gave us some insight from the inner circle:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-...y-exonerated-in-the-murder-of-his-daughter/2/

October 14, 2008

John Ramsey's Lingering Suspicions

by Lucinda Franks

[snip]

[John] Ramsey admits, for the first time, that both he and Patsy suffered waves of guilt about the murder. "I kicked myself for not getting more sophisticated house security. We left it off that night because it would go off like a siren and catapult us out of bed."

Patsy, he says, “wondered who she had enticed by putting JonBenet in beauty contests.” And both parents lamented that the videos of JonBenet vamping in these competitions—released by the pageant organizations—became the only thing most people knew about their daughter.

"But she was a born performer, she and Burke would put on all these plays,” Ramsey says. The pageants were only an occasional fun thing."

Yet Pam Archuleta, over coffee and then wine at the Boulderado Hotel, said Patsy was “obsessed” by the contests, and she describes the alcove just outside the master bedroom in Boulder where Patsy displayed all the photos, trophies, ribbons and tiaras from her own days as Miss West Virginia. JonBenet’s pageant costumes were “handmade in New York, much finer than the other contestants,” says another family friend. "Her hair was highlighted, her makeup applied thickly and designed to make her look older. Besides, she had to take piano and singing lessons, she had a coach. Does that sound like fun?”

John Ramsey had misgivings about the cost of the costumes and the atmosphere of the pageant circuit: "I hated the 'I won, I won,' attitude of the other families,” he says. Sometimes, according to Pam, he and Patsy argued about it: "He came from a well-bred background and things like that were not done.”

Even Patsy expressed occasional doubts about the effect of the circuit on her daughter: "She is too friendly, just too friendly with people," she told Michael and Pam. “She flirts with people.”

[snip]

It's an informative article on many levels.