TH's emails shed light on Horman split

[Donjeta]

Agree. And, investigators say the "plot never went beyond talk", which makes me question the validity of any "plot"...

http://www.portlandtribune.com/news/story_2nd.php?story_id=128293469651541900

IMO "it never went beyond talk" can mean a variety of things and we can't necessarily tell it was nothing serious, just because it was just words. There are two people involved in the conversation, for one thing, and even if Terri had been dead serious the responses of the LS might have convinced her to leave the topic and try to make it into a joke.

It could have been just an exasperated off the cuff remark á la "I hate him, I want to hire someone to kill him" that was never meant seriously and never taken seriously at the time.

It could have been a seriously meant suggestion: "I hate him, how much do you want if you kill him for me?" that was said flippantly, in order to gauge his reaction, ready to dismiss it as a joke or develop the conversation based on what he says.

It could have been a serious opening that the LS killed before it got anywhere: "Would you shoot him for me?" "Of course not, are you insane?"

Or it could have been an actual negotiation. "Would you kill him for me?" "Okay but not unless I get $ 50,000." "I don't have that much money. Would you settle for 10 grand now and 25 after he's dead and I get my inheritance?" "No, you need to find someone cheaper. I ain't putting my neck in it for less than 50."

Any of these wouldn't have gone beyond words.

 

[AbbieNormal]

I am at the point where I am very, very skeptical of the entire MFH "plot". I am doubting that an amount was ever discussed. IMO, what I suspect is that a frustrated housewife vented to someone who would listen--and it was so mundane that the someone (LS) did not even report it to the police. If evidence surfaces of specifics such as amount, date, time, when, where, and how, I will believe it. However, at this point, I just find it hard to believe. moo

Until LE says the MFH plot never happened, I have to believe its true. I haven't heard LE state the landscaper isn;t credible, or anything to that effect. SoI think its true.
I have already posted my speculations as to why the landscaper did not come foreward months ago.

 

[debs]

Until LE says the MFH plot never happened, I have to believe its true. I haven't heard LE state the landscaper isn;t credible, or anything to that effect. SoI think its true.
I have already posted my speculations as to why the landscaper did not come foreward months ago.

No one has heard LE state that the MFH plot was true.....except Kaine.

 

[jadejazzkayla]

No one has heard LE state that the MFH plot was true.....except Kaine.

Kaine never says le believes mfh is true. He said le provided him with information and now he believes it is true.

 

[debs]

Kaine never says le believes mfh is true. He said le provided him with information and now he believes it is true.

Oh right. It was Kaine's belief that there was a MFH plot. That he heard about from LE. That no one else has heard from LE regarding the veracity of the claim.

 

[Dee10]

Oh right. It was Kaine's belief that there was a MFH plot. That he heard about from LE. That no one else has heard from LE regarding the veracity of the claim.

Wasn't that the reason he got a RO so quickly because LE provided probable cause? If Kaine was lying wouldn't TH's lawyer be vocal about this? Why do you believe Kaine is lying if I may ask?

 

[debs]

Wasn't that the reason he got a RO so quickly because LE provided probable cause? If Kaine was lying wouldn't TH's lawyer be vocal about this? Why do you believe Kaine is lying if I may ask?

Doesn't take any evidence to get a restraining order. It is based primarily on witness statement (in this case, Kaine).

LE did not provide probable cause. Kaine stated what they told him made him believe his wife attempted to have him killed.

What he did not say is "LE told me my wife tried to hire a guy and showed me all the texts/emails/phone calls/receipts/statement by the landscaper/all other sundry items involved in her taking out a hit on me." He just said what they told him made him believe she tried.

That is not proof.

 

[jadejazzkayla]

Doesn't take any evidence to get a restraining order. It is based primarily on witness statement (in this case, Kaine).

LE did not provide probable cause. Kaine stated what they told him made him believe his wife attempted to have him killed.

What he did not say is "LE told me my wife tried to hire a guy and showed me all the texts/emails/phone calls/receipts/statement by the landscaper/all other sundry items involved in her taking out a hit on me." He just said what they told him made him believe she tried.

That is not proof.

exactly. LE did not provide any information to the judge.

 

[grandmaj]

This thread is OT........ get back to the emails please.

 

[mmmagique]

I still maintain saying "I have a receipt showing I was checking out at Fred Meyer seven miles away at 9:12 am" sounds suspicious.

Something about the way it's worded, both the fact that she didn't say "I was at Fred Meyer" and also mentioning it's seven miles away and it was at 9:12 am, just sets off my hinkometer...

 

[Donjeta]

I still maintain saying "I have a receipt showing I was checking out at Fred Meyer seven miles away at 9:12 am" sounds suspicious.

Something about the way it's worded, both the fact that she didn't say "I was at Fred Meyer" and also mentioning it's seven miles away and it was at 9:12 am, just sets off my hinkometer...

I have an alibi and I can prove it...

 

[Sly Scorpio]

I've got to say, I've been on the fence a lot with a few occasions of hopping off for a day or two. After reading this thread, IMO, this is what does it for me. I never really stopped to think how many excuses she's coming up with in these emails-- I think that points the guilty finger at her more than anything else we've got evidence of. Great sleuthing everyone! MOO

 

[Etilema]

IMO "it never went beyond talk" can mean a variety of things and we can't necessarily tell it was nothing serious, just because it was just words. There are two people involved in the conversation, for one thing, and even if Terri had been dead serious the responses of the LS might have convinced her to leave the topic and try to make it into a joke.

It could have been just an exasperated off the cuff remark á la "I hate him, I want to hire someone to kill him" that was never meant seriously and never taken seriously at the time.

It could have been a seriously meant suggestion: "I hate him, how much do you want if you kill him for me?" that was said flippantly, in order to gauge his reaction, ready to dismiss it as a joke or develop the conversation based on what he says.

It could have been a serious opening that the LS killed before it got anywhere: "Would you shoot him for me?" "Of course not, are you insane?"

Or it could have been an actual negotiation. "Would you kill him for me?" "Okay but not unless I get $ 50,000." "I don't have that much money. Would you settle for 10 grand now and 25 after he's dead and I get my inheritance?" "No, you need to find someone cheaper. I ain't putting my neck in it for less than 50."

Any of these wouldn't have gone beyond words.

I definitely interpreted it to be along the lines of the last two possibilities you list. I don't think "not going beyond talk" implies it was said jokingly or flippantly. I think it meant an serious proposition/negotiation was initiated (whatever the response of the LS might have been). But that they never got the stage of actually exchanging money or putting the actual hit in motion. In other words, they may have even discussed the "how" and "when", but not actually shaken hands and finalized the "contract" or arranged the necessary details in the physical world.

Again, I base this speculation in part on other cases where seemingly normal, middle-class men and women (spouses, in-laws, etc.) have approached workers to ask about arranging a hit. In secretly taped discussions, they will talk about what they want done and how, and how much it will cost, etc. It is beyond shocking, but if it has happened enough time where it actually came to light, the police were contacted, a sting was carried out, and I saw the videos on TV, I wonder how often it might happen and no one else finds out. It gives me a different perspective on what might be possible, what seemingly ordinary people might be capable of. None of these cases I have seen reported involved the person "joking" about the proposition.

All JMO.

 

[Dee10]

I still maintain saying "I have a receipt showing I was checking out at Fred Meyer seven miles away at 9:12 am" sounds suspicious.

Something about the way it's worded, both the fact that she didn't say "I was at Fred Meyer" and also mentioning it's seven miles away and it was at 9:12 am, just sets off my hinkometer...

Exactly, yet she glosses over the amount of time she was driving Baby "K" around and shaves off 19 minutes of that time, claiming to be at the gym. The gym (according to the press) was 11:39 not 11:20 as TH mentioned in the email.

 

[Etilema]

Until LE says the MFH plot never happened, I have to believe its true. I haven't heard LE state the landscaper isn;t credible, or anything to that effect. SoI think its true.
I have already posted my speculations as to why the landscaper did not come foreward months ago.

JMO, but I really think it is very difficult for most people with normal morals to grasp the idea that people who seem ordinary in other ways could be capable of initiating a MFH plot. I have stated numerous times on the forums that I would feel that way, myself, if I had not seen many such cases reported. I just did a quick Google search and found a handful (linked below), not even including any of those I had heard of before which actually involved people approaching handyman/painter types:

http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/mother-allegedy-hires-hitman-kill-husband/story?id=10043770

http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=5448805&page=1

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/wife-hired-hit-man-husband-police/story?id=9110716

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...tman-kill-mother-confiscated-Playstation.html

[ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wanda_Holloway[/ame]

http://www.fbi.gov/page2/may07/murderhire052307.htm

http://www.myfoxdfw.com/dpp/news/Woman_Hired_Cop_to_Kill_Dad_P

(I hope this is not too off-topic, but I couldn't locate the thread dedicated to the MFH plot, if there is one.)

 

[Donjeta]

I've got to say, I've been on the fence a lot with a few occasions of hopping off for a day or two. After reading this thread, IMO, this is what does it for me. I never really stopped to think how many excuses she's coming up with in these emails-- I think that points the guilty finger at her more than anything else we've got evidence of. Great sleuthing everyone! MOO

Yeah... it was the teacher's fault for messing things up, a random male's fault because he probably abducted Kyron since he wasn't on the list, the school administration's fault because it was so chaotic and uncontrolled at the science fair, Kyron's fault for acting weird and probably wandering away. Just not hers because she thought Kyron was in safe hands and has a receipt from 7 miles away at 9:12 am.

 

[debs]

Yeah... it was the teacher's fault for messing things up, a random male's fault because he probably abducted Kyron since he wasn't on the list, the school administration's fault because it was so chaotic and uncontrolled at the science fair, Kyron's fault for acting weird and probably wandering away. Just not hers because she thought Kyron was in safe hands and has a receipt from 7 miles away at 9:12 am.

What if the teacher DID screw it up, though? We just don't know.

 

[stmarysmead]

It's fair to say that we don't know... that Terri's claims about her time-line in her emails have not been verified to back her story or not. All we KNOW is that LE keeps asking for more sightings of Terri, DeDe and the truck. If her story checked out 100% would LE continue to do this?

I suppose LE could be incompetent or corrupt or wasting the public's time...but, barring that, is it unreasonable to assume Terri's story did not check out?

It's fair to say we don't know if others saw Kyron with an adult chaperone and two girls after Terri left. But it is clear we have seen no composite sketch of this chaperone nor heard one word from LE tracking this story further. Nor anything from the "two girls" or concerned parents at school.

I suppose again LE could be incompetent or corrupt...or more intent on indicting Terri than finding Kyron...or I suppose the school could be intimidating these girls and families into silence (at their own risk, I might add, if the kidnapper is still at large)...but is that more likely than assuming another part of Terri's story did not check out?

It's fair to say at this point that we "don't know" what exactly Kaine received from LE about the Murder-for-Hire plot. Maybe they just said "Hey,this Landscaper says your wife that you've been cuddling and protecting in public tried to hire him to kill you awhile back..no proof...but we're just passing that along" And, Kaine just decided that this stranger probably was more credible than his wife of numerous years...and dashed out with Baby K and immediately filed for divorce.

And we might suppose that LE having time on their hands, set up a sting on just an allegation and not one whit of confirming evidence...but is that more likely than believing the Landscaper had some very tangible things that led credence to his story? And are the Favorable-to-Terri Scenarios more logical than thinking those tangible things set off the chain of events that led to Kaine filing immediately for divorce and LE setting up a sting?

Over and over again, I have to discredit other people to give Terri's stories credence. I have to believe Desiree is bitter and her jealousy against Terri is more important to her than finding her child. Terri is more important to Desiree than Kyron!
Therefore she says nothing as an innocent woman becomes the focus...and allows LE to sidetrack the investigation putting her beloved child each day at further risk.

I have to believe Kaine also wants to persecute Terri more than find Kyron. And that he is a disloyal overreacting Bolter...who choose to irrationally believe a stranger's unsupported allegation of MFH rather than his own wife.

I have to believe LE is either corrupt, careless, or incompetent...stubbornly focusing on an innocent woman and her loyal friends and ignoring the real leads.

Or I can (for me) stop pointing fingers everywhere else, and see that over and over, unless I work hard to give Terri the benefit of the doubt time after time...the cumulative effect of all these things is to again and again and again, come back to Terri in a suspicious way.

Unless you are fairly sure Terri is the victim...and everyone else ...the teacher, the Landscaper, the Sexting Friend, Kaine, Desiree, LE ...are just out to get her for no good reason...I have to believe LE has numerous good reasons and solid leads for making Terri the focus of their investigation.

 

[Blondie in Spokane]

I still maintain saying "I have a receipt showing I was checking out at Fred Meyer seven miles away at 9:12 am" sounds suspicious.

Something about the way it's worded, both the fact that she didn't say "I was at Fred Meyer" and also mentioning it's seven miles away and it was at 9:12 am, just sets off my hinkometer...

ITA....it all sounds too contrived....

 

[Donjeta]

What if the teacher DID screw it up, though? We just don't know.

It is certainly a possibility.

But it bothers me that we have two stories about how that screw-up came to be. Terri assumes the teacher somehow mixed up what she said that morning about going to go look at other exhibits. Her friend JF said that the mix-up was caused by something Terri said the day before about an appointment for the next week.

Finster said Horman had told Kyron's teacher the day before that she was taking the boy to the doctor on Friday, June 11, and gave the teacher paperwork to fill out related to the appointment.

Finster said that when Kyron didn't show up at the bus the afternoon of June 4, Horman talked to the teacher who said she thought that Horman had taken Kyron to the doctor that day. Horman told Finster that the child's teacher was new, in her first year of teaching, and was hard of hearing in one ear. "She doesn't know if she understood her," Finster said.

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/06/friend_says_terry_moulton_horm.html