TN - Gail Nowacki Palmgren, 44, Signal Mountain, 30 April 2011 - #12

[BeanE]

Thank you. This is what I was thinking, but I may not have made myself clear in my previous post. Many people have pondered whether or not Gail went to a shelter and is still there. I try to look at every possible theory and decide in my own mind if I think it's plausible. The one thing that makes it very difficult for me to believe that Gail is alone in a shelter or left and is hiding out somewhere is: the children.

So, I googled DV shelters and read the information on many sites and I didn't find a single one that mentioned leaving children behind. All but one, didn't mention specifically what to do but they discussed things a mother should bring with her when she leaves and they all included items related to children: the children's birth certificates, passports, clothing, school and medical records, toys, etc. I took that to mean that it was assumed the children would come too. Now, I realize that if a mother makes the decision that she is going to go to a shelter and leave her kids behind, I'm pretty confident that they aren't going to say, "Oh no, you can't stay here without your kids. You have to go and get your kids". I get that. I was just curious if there was some reason that DV shelters would routinely advise women to leave their children behind. What I discovered is that they don't. I did find one site that actually talked about bringing the children to the shelter and it outright advised to do that because it said, you may have difficulty regaining custody if you leave them behind. I did not link the site because it was a site out of the UK. I could probably find it again if anyone is interested. I guess I just can't get around the situation with the children. I am a mother and I can't imagine leaving the children. I would take them with me wherever I was going to end up. Also, many of the things Gail was doing before she disappeared suggested, to me anyway, that her plans included the children, such as the money sent to her sister. That's what it says to me, anyway. JMO

Yes, the DV shelters are all very welcoming of children. I'd have been shocked if you'd found DV shelters routinely advising women to leave their children behind.

To my knowledge, it is only some of the underground DV shelters that discourage bringing children.

There's a big difference between the DV shelters that are commonly known, and the underground DV shelter system.

Some of the underground DV shelters do prefer that the women leave their children behind if possible, if the children can be adequately cared for, and if the children are not being abused.

 

[stilettos]

- Your experience and mine is vastly different. I only wish that every woman I had ever worked with had been able to bring her children with her when she escaped her abuser. It would have greatly reduced the hell they were going through, and continued to go through.

- I never would be able to encourage a woman to leave her children either, but that is only one of many problems I have with the underground shelters I mentioned when I brought that up.

- I agree that there is a certain incongruity to leaving one's children with a man, and then seeking shelter and claiming that same man abused you. It happens though. And sometimes, of course, that is the case - the abuser physically abuses the woman, but never the children.

In Gail's case, it's somewhat of a long shot, but the known information fits the scenario of her having gone to a shelter. To me, better than any other scenario.

I understand where you are coming from...I am heartily glad that I have never had to deal with a case like you have described. I do know about abusers who are violent against a woman and not the children... at that time. It is my experience personally and professionally that abuse to the Mother, without ever physically touching the children is still abuse to the child and just as damaging.

I am aware of underground DV shelters and changing identities for protection. I know it is harder to change your indentity with children, which is..I believe the reason they might make a woman aware that she is more readily found with her children.

 

[Melodie]

Oriah, maybe you can help me with this one:

I read a story in our local news this weekend that involved cell phone pings and it was an eye opening experience. Some of you may have read the story. A man went hunting last Thursday in a remote area around here. I think it was in Sequatchie County. He was on a 4 wheeler. Apparently he wrecked the 4 wheeler and it landed on top of him and he was badly injured. He managed to call his girlfriend several times from his cell phone and told her what happened and that he was having difficulty breathing and in a lot of pain. He knew his injuries were severe. He was able to give very little helpful information to pinpoint his exact location. She said after the 3rd or 4th call, his phone went dead and there was no further contact. She called the police and they went out to search in the general location. They did not find him until Sunday and he was dead. Such a sad and tragic story. The thing that stunned me was that the police said they could not locate him by his phone because he didn't call 911. Apparently, if he had dialed 911, they would have been able to locate him sooner. I was shocked. Why is that? Is it related to the remote area or his phone? Why would dialing 911 have made the difference? Is this similar to Gail's case and the pings from her cell phone? I don't understand it at all. I think people put much more faith in cell phone pings being able to locate someone than is deserved.

 

[Emeralgem]

BBM - maybe this is his motive. I really think that MP wanted to divorce Gail. Maybe she did call his boss/employer; and he found out. I really do think that MP should be answering questions. The biggest red flag - it happens too often! MP and GP are on the brink of divorce. She is getting ready for the divorce. She disappears. This story is just like so many others here on WS. Too often, the spouse, finance, or boyfriend is responsible. WHY didn't they come down harder on MP in the beginning? In my opinion, they had cause to look at Gail's safety just because of the phone calls to LE. We wouldn't be talking about MP today if they had investigated him thoroughly and thoughtfully from the beginning. However, it has seemed - at least to me - that he has been calling the shots from the get-go. HIS lawyer told the police they could search with specific conditions.

I would love for a lawyer to fill me in. If an adult goes missing, and there are no leads on that disappearance to say that it was voluntary, could LE get a search warrant?

BBM...IIRC a poster here who seems to know MP has claimed MP wanted the divorce and Gail didn't.. It is also my understanding TH divorced her husband in February..Perhaps TH was applying some real pressure to MP to get a divorce immediately..Perhaps MP found out Gail had some pertinent information that would stand up in a court of law which would keep him from getting what he wanted IF he filed for divorce.....JMHO..

 

[Emeralgem]

Could it be IF Gail did escape to an underground DV shelter for women she had sufficient proof that someone was trying to kill her? Is it possible LE also has proof of this being the case?

 

[Oriah]

Has it been reported who was trying to call her?

No, I don't believe that has been reported.

 

[Emeralgem]

And I've never seen anything where Matt P has claimed he had spoken to Gail on the 30th.

IIRC...Matt P. said he was at his mothers and he had proposed to meet Gail at the residence on April 30, but when he arrived she was gone, having left the two children "by themselves without any supervision."


Guess I'm taking that to mean he did not speak with her or see her on the 30th..

I do recall seeing it revealed somewhere that he was the last person to speak with her though eventhough I cannot find it now or remember where I saw that tidbit of information posted... In reference to myself I did not view that information eventhough it may have been removed as being speculative or just someone's opinion..But thats JMHOOTS

Quoting my own post...

I'm thinking I read about MP being the last person Gail spoke with in the information sent to the Governor requesting an increase in reward money, but I do realize I could be wrong...JMHO

 

[Oriah]

Oriah, maybe you can help me with this one:

I read a story in our local news this weekend that involved cell phone pings and it was an eye opening experience. Some of you may have read the story. A man went hunting last Thursday in a remote area around here. I think it was in Sequatchie County. He was on a 4 wheeler. Apparently he wrecked the 4 wheeler and it landed on top of him and he was badly injured. He managed to call his girlfriend several times from his cell phone and told her what happened and that he was having difficulty breathing and in a lot of pain. He knew his injuries were severe. He was able to give very little helpful information to pinpoint his exact location. She said after the 3rd or 4th call, his phone went dead and there was no further contact. She called the police and they went out to search in the general location. They did not find him until Sunday and he was dead. Such a sad and tragic story. The thing that stunned me was that the police said they could not locate him by his phone because he didn't call 911. Apparently, if he had dialed 911, they would have been able to locate him sooner. I was shocked. Why is that? Is it related to the remote area or his phone? Why would dialing 911 have made the difference? Is this similar to Gail's case and the pings from her cell phone? I don't understand it at all. I think people put much more faith in cell phone pings being able to locate someone than is deserved.

I'm not sure of the situation you are referring to, Melodie. But it sounds terrible- and terribly sad.

Yes, it does make a difference if someone calls 911 vs another number. It also makes a difference if someone calls a number that, for example, is on a 'family' or other similar combined plan- and it also makes a difference (in response time, anyway) if a phone itself is 911 enabled only/or not. There are several factors that go into ping analysis- both re: rapid response, and extended response.

In the situation you refer to- the girlfriend's call to police (I am assuming that was a 911 call?) was likely easily triangulated to her location. But that didn't help, because she was not at or near the same location where her boyfriend had the accident where he called HER from. And even if she was- then it would take a bit of time to trace that- which obviously is not helpful in an emergency situation.

What a sad situation.

Gosh- I hope he didn't voice activate her number. How painful this must be for her.

 

[BeanE]

Could it be IF Gail did escape to an underground DV shelter for women she had sufficient proof that someone was trying to kill her? Is it possible LE also has proof of this being the case?

Personally, I don't think the underground DV shelters would have worked with Gail. From what I understand, the women and children they work with have to have substantial documentation of abuse and of having tried to work within the court/legal system and it having failed.

If Gail had proof of a MFH plot, then LE would help with that in terms of hiding her if they felt it necessary. To be clear, my understanding - and I'm no expert on the whole MFH thing - is that you don't need to provide the proof yourself - it's if LE has or can gain sufficient proof, there are laws in place for the hiding of the person the plot is against.

I don't know a whole lot about the MFH laws etc. I believe I posted a link with some info some time back.

 

[Oriah]

I might be misunderstanding you, BeanE- and if so I apologize.

It is my understanding that a 'ping' radius is not an absolute. It depends a lot on what towers and satellites are where- and in what proximity at the time of the ping to the device that pings.
So for example- one of our vehicles (which has active Sirius) pings off of whatever Sirius satellite is closest to our vehicle. If that's a 'dead zone' (middle of nowhere- or just the satellite is in the middle of nowhere, lol) then the signal drops- and so does the ping. Ditto for phones. But then some providers own and/or share towers and satellites- so some bounce around, depending upon specific device.

Does that make sense? Or am I being totally confusing, lol??!!

Ping/tower/satellite overlays kind of make me lose my mind, lol.

Here is the only information that's been published about pings - two days after she went missing. Keeping in mind both that a person can be within roughly 20 miles of where their phone pinged, and that a person can throw their phone out their car window, it tells me nothing about where Gail factually was after dropping the kids off two days earlier.

Can you clarify what you mean? I'm lost again lol.

TIA


Nichols said traces on Gail Palmgren’s cellphone directed police to an area near the north base of Signal Mountain. The last time there was activity on the cellphone was May 2, the same day the missing person’s report was filed, Nichols said.

http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2011/may/17/missing-woman-search-continues-gail-palmgren/?news


The last signal from Palmgren’s cell phone was reported near Mountain Creek Road two days after she went missing.

http://timesfreepress.com/news/2011/may/23/searchers-comb-signal-missing-woman/?news

 

[Melodie]

I'm not sure of the situation you are referring to, Melodie. But it sounds terrible- and terribly sad.

Yes, it does make a difference if someone calls 911 vs another number. It also makes a difference if someone calls a number that, for example, is on a 'family' or other similar combined plan- and it also makes a difference (in response time, anyway) if a phone itself is 911 enabled only/or not. There are several factors that go into ping analysis- both re: rapid response, and extended response.

In the situation you refer to- the girlfriend's call to police (I am assuming that was a 911 call?) was likely easily triangulated to her location. But that didn't help, because she was not at or near the same location where her boyfriend had the accident where he called HER from. And even if she was- then it would take a bit of time to trace that- which obviously is not helpful in an emergency situation.

What a sad situation.

Gosh- I hope he didn't voice activate her number. How painful this must be for her.

Yes, it is a heartbreaking story. I am sure his family is suffering horribly over what happened. I think he was around 51 yrs old and he and his girlfriend were engaged. I don't remember the article mentioning if she dialed 911, but I would assume so, also. When tragic accidents like this happen, you hope that maybe somewhere in it is a lesson for others that could eventually save a life.

 

[BeanE]

Quoting my own post...

I'm thinking I read about MP being the last person Gail spoke with in the information sent to the Governor requesting an increase in reward money, but I do realize I could be wrong...JMHO

It says Matt last spoke with Gail on April 30, but doesn't say if he was the last person she spoke with.

http://wrcb.images.worldnow.com/images/incoming/news/GovLetter.pdf

 

[BeanE]

I might be misunderstanding you, BeanE- and if so I apologize.

It is my understanding that a 'ping' radius is not an absolute. It depends a lot on what towers and satellites are where- and in what proximity at the time of the ping to the device that pings.
So for example- one of our vehicles (which has active Sirius) pings off of whatever Sirius satellite is closest to our vehicle. If that's a 'dead zone' (middle of nowhere- or just the satellite is in the middle of nowhere, lol) then the signal drops- and so does the ping. Ditto for phones. But then some providers own and/or share towers and satellites- so some bounce around, depending upon specific device.

Does that make sense? Or am I being totally confusing, lol??!!

Ping/tower/satellite overlays kind of make me lose my mind, lol.

Totally confusing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeanE
I've never seen anything indicating where Gail's intent was to go after dropping off the kids.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oriah
Only indication I've found is the pings. And that's certainly not indicative of intent. Just fact-based.

Here is the only information that's been published about pings - two days after she went missing. Keeping in mind both that a person can be within roughly 20 miles of where their phone pinged, and that a person can throw their phone out their car window, it tells me nothing about where Gail factually was after dropping the kids off two days earlier.

Can you clarify what you mean? I'm lost again lol.

TIA


Nichols said traces on Gail Palmgren’s cellphone directed police to an area near the north base of Signal Mountain. The last time there was activity on the cellphone was May 2, the same day the missing person’s report was filed, Nichols said.

http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2...palmgren/?news


The last signal from Palmgren’s cell phone was reported near Mountain Creek Road two days after she went missing.

http://timesfreepress.com/news/2011/...ng-woman/?news

 

[Oriah]

Totally confusing.

I'm sorry.

Not my intention, I swear.

 

[glorias]

Quoting my own post...

I'm thinking I read about MP being the last person Gail spoke with in the information sent to the Governor requesting an increase in reward money, but I do realize I could be wrong...JMHO

You're right, we got that info from MacGyver. I also thought it was in the letter to the governor, but MacGyver corrected me on this post:

I don't think it was last person to see her, but I think they have phone records that show he was the last person to talk to her.

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7104022&postcount=190"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - TN TN - Gail Nowacki Palmgren,44, Signal Mountain, 30 April, 2011 - #11[/ame]


Has not been reported in the media AFAIK.

 

[believe09]

I might be misunderstanding you, BeanE- and if so I apologize.

It is my understanding that a 'ping' radius is not an absolute. It depends a lot on what towers and satellites are where- and in what proximity at the time of the ping to the device that pings.
So for example- one of our vehicles (which has active Sirius) pings off of whatever Sirius satellite is closest to our vehicle. If that's a 'dead zone' (middle of nowhere- or just the satellite is in the middle of nowhere, lol) then the signal drops- and so does the ping. Ditto for phones. But then some providers own and/or share towers and satellites- so some bounce around, depending upon specific device.

Does that make sense? Or am I being totally confusing, lol??!!

Ping/tower/satellite overlays kind of make me lose my mind, lol.

For any of you following the Steven Koecher case, this is the exact same situation. Las Vegas is like a bowl-so following pings is only as accurate as the traffic in between the towers and what cell phone providers share which ones. It is maddening to try and figure out.

Ex: There are Towers A, B and C. A belongs to company A, B belongs to Company B, C belongs to Company C.

Company B and C share towers -Believe is missing and her phone pings off Tower B. Was I closer to tower B or C when it pinged?

If my cell phone provider is with Tower A, and I pinged on B, is it because the call dropped or was I closer to B?

 

[McSpy]

And that article was on Sunday, July 10th, 2011..
We are now into October and Gail disappeared over five months ago ..To my knowledge Matt P still has not given a statement to LE and he has not allowed LE to speak with the children either....JMHO

The fact that he hasn't made any statement to LE makes an outsider think he is hiding something.

 

[believe09]

closing for the night...

 

[Melodie]

The fact that he hasn't made any statement to LE makes an outsider think he is hiding something.

Absolutely. It makes no sense to me. JMO

 

[Melodie]

All I know IF she left Alabama and the lake house around 6:30 CST she should have arrived at the residence on Ridgerock around 11:30 EST.. It's about a four hour drive. Granted, she and the children may have stopped for breakfast, gas, bathroom break but she should have arrived home before or around noon. There are claims she left the residence around 12:15 so she couldn't have been there that long before she left...

I realize we have received information she left her drivers license and her credit cards at the house, but I'm still trying to figure out IF by chance she did have her license and credit cards with her when she left the residence at 12:15, how would those items being found back at the house benefit Matt P.. Anyone have any ideas? JMHO..

BBM Well, I think it's highly unusual for someone to leave those things behind, particularly the driver's license. In my experience, most women keep those things in their purse/wallet at all times. I never take my license out and leave it somewhere. If you get stopped by the police, you will be fined for not having your license, so I cannot think of any reason not to keep it with you. Do we know if those things were just left alone or were they in a purse that was left at the house? It's very odd to me. JMO