Trial Discussion Thread #15

[luvmygarden]

I can see the defense present OP to answer their questions to reiterate his bail affidavit and his statement. He will need to answer the prosecution questions to those answers. Then what else can they possibly bring out that would really change anything re: facts about Reeva's death He shot at her 4 times? He used illegal bullets regardless if they were his Dad's, he used them. Other questions re: other charges maybe. He shot a bullet at a restaurant. He shot out of the roof of a car. I don't see his time on the stand being that long.

I can't see why very many people will be called because even with his so called friends estate manager, EM daughter and anyone else are going to be reluctant to get too deep. EM daughter left the scene with evidence and will not want to incriminate herself much further. It is not going to be all for one and one for all kinda scenario. OP is not innocent of any wrong doing. It was all his doing that he sits where he does. He was over the top with his use of weapons on many occasions. I believe that less is better for OP's defense. He can't himself dispute ear witness testimony they heard what they heard. OP is in way deep regardless of his status in Africa and his celebrity status around the world. It is OP's world that has come crumbling down because of OP's actions. He had other options than the one he chose for all to believe. Too immature to own fire arms in my opinion.

 

[Gavel Rash]

So I wondered about where the bat was and assumed it was behind the bedroom door and then I read this. Interesting description of character. Sorry if this is just rehash of previous posting from anywhere. So he's just grabbed that after he's broken thru bedroom door in such a rage!? (If a locked bedroom door involved) Note no air rifle mentioned. Was the hole an inni or an outie? Ill check.

'.....This being South Africa, one baseball bat and one cricket bat lie behind Pistorius's bedroom door.'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/ol...nt-run-I-cheating-I-believe-purity-sport.html

 

[Gavel Rash]

Perhaps I should read the evidence doh!

Sorry time sequence is in reverse...from http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/O...IVE-UPDATES-Pistorius-on-trial-Day-9-20140313



14:21 - Photo shows hole in bedroom door. No explanation yet. VR says he didn't pick up damage to entrance of main bedroom door. Damage near the bottom of the door and near the handle.

14:20 - Black object at entrance to bedroom is an air gun, says VR.

14:19 - Another photo shows entrance to main bedroom. VR points out more of the blood trail.

14:17 - Another photo shows a small room which leads to main room. Bloody marks here too.

14:16 - There's more blood splatter on the wall of passage near the spare bedroom.

14:15 - Another pic shown. Pointing out the door leading to a spare bedroom, says VR.He describes more bloody spots.

14:12 - VR explains view from landing at top of stairs, door immediately on right, room and towel cupboard door further on.

 

[Interested Bystander]

Just catching up on the late and overnight posts. I have to say I am quite surprised that it is felt by many that the state's case is weak and yet think OPs testimony is factual. IMO you can drive a coach and horses through OP's statements.

Would somebody tell me why a witness statement can be considered false or unreliable when they are only there to tell the court what they felt they witnessed. I just cannot believe that 5 witness statements can be written off as almost irrelevant. There are bound to be differences. That is human nature. They are not testifying against OP, just reporting what they saw and heard. Whereas OP has every reason to lie to try to get himself of the hook.

Unfortunately I have visitors all day so will be unable to keep up with the thread but will read it before retiring tonight - UK time.

 

[MeeBee]

Can you not consider that maybe Mrs Stipp didn't "fabricate" anything as you so judgementally accuse, merely that from discussing it with her husband, a normal activity after such a traumatic event, at one point she got confused as to what she had seen and what her husband had told her he had seen. I have had several instances where I am unsure if I said, did or heard something or my OH did, and IMO Mrs Stipp proved her honesty when, after re-reading and thinking more about it, she asked to change it.

I seem to recall someone inferring that posters who believed OP guilty were only willing to accept as evidence things that confirmed their beliefs... could this be an example of the reverse?

Bringing over quote by g.bang so I can respond.

I don't say fabricate in judgmental sense. It's just a fact she put something in her statement that was plain not part of her memory. She fabricated a memory. Sure she went back and corrected it which shows honesty, at the least. It still happened.

BBM: don't see how. I'm not writing her testimony off. I'm merely trying to be discerning about it. And, once again, feel my intentions are being misconstrued. I realized at the beginning of this trial that I had gone in with a presumption of guilt rather than innocence
and was not fairly weighing all evidence, writing off things that were actually corroborating Oscar's account, and trying to make everything fit into a the state's scenario, much like has been going on with other posters. I realized it wasn't rational and that I actually was having were real doubts and I was suppressing them because I still wanted him to be guilty. At some point, I couldn't deny my reasonable doubt anymore. There were things that I was trying to make fit and it didn't. I was trying to make 2+2=5. I just want to make sure I'm seeing and questioning everything from every possible angle and being true to myself, not making a square peg fit in a circle hole or making things fit into my view rather than being honest about what it shows. It's only fair.

I don't know if Oscar is telling the truth or not. I don't even know if I believe him. But I do know that I cannot say with any kind of certainty that he isn't. I have no confidence either way in guilt or innocence. And in the country I live in that would be a not guilty.

So, no, g that's not what's going on here.

 

[MeeBee]

And what I see is those on the firmly guilty side have many different theories about what happened, theories that don't even support the state's case. They themselves are confident in their theories but this is certainly a problem for me and has created even more doubt. If a clear picture of the state's case hasn't come through and a clear picture of what happened that night has not emerged that is a problem. At this point, it should be clearer what the state wants to say. That to me shows that state's case is not as strong as I initially thought it would be. So many unanswered questions yet so many are so convicted they have it all figured out.

 

[james83]

@barrybateman in your opinion how long do you think the defense case will last?
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Barry Bateman ‏@barrybateman 4 hrs
@p several weeks. Nel will probably keep Pistorius busy in the box for a week.
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[steveml]

I can see the defense present OP to answer their questions to reiterate his bail affidavit and his statement. He will need to answer the prosecution questions to those answers. Then what else can they possibly bring out that would really change anything re: facts about Reeva's death He shot at her 4 times? He used illegal bullets regardless if they were his Dad's, he used them. Other questions re: other charges maybe. He shot a bullet at a restaurant. He shot out of the roof of a car. I don't see his time on the stand being that long.

I can't see why very many people will be called because even with his so called friends estate manager, EM daughter and anyone else are going to be reluctant to get too deep. EM daughter left the scene with evidence and will not want to incriminate herself much further. It is not going to be all for one and one for all kinda scenario. OP is not innocent of any wrong doing. It was all his doing that he sits where he does. He was over the top with his use of weapons on many occasions. I believe that less is better for OP's defense. He can't himself dispute ear witness testimony they heard what they heard. OP is in way deep regardless of his status in Africa and his celebrity status around the world. It is OP's world that has come crumbling down because of OP's actions. He had other options than the one he chose for all to believe. Too immature to own fire arms in my opinion.

Thanks for your post.

If I can just clarify the bullet situation. The Black Talon bullets used in the handgun were not illegal, I think you may be referring to the bullets in the safe.

There has been quite a bit of misinformation regarding the Black Talon bullets due to media speculation and twitter-talk. Black Talon was simply a brand-name made by a company called Winchester. A person went on a killing spree a while ago killing many people, therefore Winchester decided to re-brand the bullet, and for years have sold the same bullets, but re-named.
They had to change the name as they knew lawyers would have a field day in court.

This bullet is a type of hollow-point expanding bullet of which many variations are available today, the same type of which are used by Police forces.

I'll take away the brand name and give you the common name for the Black Talon bullet. It's called a dum-dum.

I think you'll agree, 'he loaded his gun with dum-dums and fired' doesn't sound nearly as sinister or dramatic.

 

[Val1]

And what I see is those on the firmly guilty side have many different theories about what happened, theories that don't even support the state's case. They themselves are confident in their theories but this is certainly a problem for me and has created even more doubt. If a clear picture of the state's case hasn't come through and a clear picture of what happened that night has not emerged that is a problem. At this point, it should be clearer what the state wants to say. That to me shows that state's case is not as strong as I initially thought it would be. So many unanswered questions yet so many are so convicted they have it all figured out.

I certainly don't have it all figured out, I wasn't there so can only speculate as to all the details, as can any of us, including both the defense and prosecution teams when it comes right down to it.

However, that does not mean OP is not guilty of murder, in fact, he has already confessed to not only killing someone, but of deliberately firing four lethal gunshots into a very small closed room where the person inside had no way to escape and all without knowing his target or whether they in fact were a threat to him, something he had previously signed his name verifying he understood was against the law.

That OP knew it was RS, I and others do certainly suspect and much of the evidence points to him having known it was her, but I am still willing to hear the rest of the case before I make a final determination of that. As to whether he murdered her(intended or not) I have no doubt.

 

[MeeBee]

I certainly don't have it all figured out, I wasn't there so can only speculate as to all the details, as can any of us, including both the defense and prosecution teams when it comes right down to it.

However, that does not mean OP is not guilty of murder, in fact, he has already confessed to not only killing someone, but of deliberately firing four lethal gunshots into a very small closed room where the person inside had no way to escape and all without knowing his target or whether they in fact were a threat to him, something he had previously signed his name verifying he understood was against the law.

That OP knew it was RS, I and others do certainly suspect and much of the evidence points to him having known it was her, but I am still willing to hear the rest of the case before I make a final determination of that. As to whether he murdered her(intended or not) I have no doubt.

You may not, but there are certainly others that think they do.

And I agree that OP is guilty and should be punished accordingly. I have said this many, many times. What we are talking about is whether or not he knew Reeva was behind that door and intended to kill her in a murderous rage. That is the state's case, after all isn't it?

 

[james83]

Must say whether innocent or guilty i find the fact the Oscar has a new girlfriend highly disrespectful to Reeva's family.
Surely you would wait to all is said and done first, not very classy.

 

[Val1]

You may not, but there are certainly others that do.

And I agree that OP is guilty and should be punished accordingly. I have said this many, many times. What we are talking about is whether or not he knew Reeva was behind that door and intended to kill her in a murderous rage. That is the state's case, after all isn't it?

Not how I read it....

http://www.scribd.com/doc/185695401/Full-document-–-Oscar-Pistorius-indictment

In that upon or about 14 February 2013 and at or near 286 Bushwillow Street, Silverwoods Country Estate, Silver Lakes in the District of Pretoria the accused did unlawfully and intentionally kill a person, to wit, REEVA STEENKAMP, a 29 year old female.

To me and possibly because I'm not a lawyer, "to wit", is merely naming the person he killed, but that the charge is that he unlawfully and intentionally killed "a person".

I'm sure there's a qualified SA lawyer hanging about that will be willing to correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Val1]

Must say whether innocent or guilty i find the fact the Oscar has a new girlfriend highly disrespectful to Reeva's family.
Surely you would wait to all is said and done first, not very classy.

It's not even that he has one imo, it's that she's actually come to court....

 

[MeeBee]

Not how I read it....

http://www.scribd.com/doc/185695401/Full-document-–-Oscar-Pistorius-indictment



To me and possibly because I'm not a lawyer, "to wit", is merely naming the person he killed, but that the charge is that he unlawfully and intentionally killed "a person".

I'm sure there's a qualified SA lawyer hanging about that will be willing to correct me if I'm wrong.

Well, see that's the problem. I see a lot of people saying he is guilty of intentional murder regardless. That's a nice catch all but I don't think that's how it works or will work. The state's case is quite clearly that he intended to murder Reeva. If that is not then they probably should have taken a different tack.

The way I'm reading this though, the state is pretty clearly saying they believe Oscar intended to kill Reeva.

It is common, IMO, of prosecutors to say either way he's guilty of so and so, especially if they feel they cannot prove their main theory. It doesnt mean OP will found guilty of intentional homicide regardless. It means the judge will weigh her options.

 

[MeeBee]

Must say whether innocent or guilty i find the fact the Oscar has a new girlfriend highly disrespectful to Reeva's family.
Surely you would wait to all is said and done first, not very classy.

Why?..

 

[steveml]

And what I see is those on the firmly guilty side have many different theories about what happened, theories that don't even support the state's case. They themselves are confident in their theories but this is certainly a problem for me and has created even more doubt. If a clear picture of the state's case hasn't come through and a clear picture of what happened that night has not emerged that is a problem. At this point, it should be clearer what the state wants to say. That to me shows that state's case is not as strong as I initially thought it would be. So many unanswered questions yet so many are so convicted they have it all figured out.

That's a very good point.

This is one of the reasons that I asked if we could hear some completed theories. I think we've had a couple.

We can all keep adding to the scenario with 'what if's', however what we appear to see at the moment is long list of reasons given for OP's guilt, with very little agreement in the way he committed the crime.

You would expect to see quite a few similarities in the actions taken by OP if the case is so clearly cut and dried.

 

[james83]

Why?..

Lost for words, LOL.

 

[Val1]

That's a very good point.

This is one of the reasons that I asked if we could hear some completed theories. I think we've had a couple.

We can all keep adding to the scenario with 'what if's', however what we appear to see at the moment is long list of reasons given for OP's guilt, with very little agreement in the way he committed the crime.

You would expect to see quite a few similarities in the actions taken by OP if the case is so clearly cut and dried.

Without knowing all the evidence(much of it went directly to the evidence bin and the public wasn't privy to it) it's pretty hard to come up with a complete theory, n'est pas?

 

[steveml]

If somebody wants to support OP in court, that's their prerogative.

Whether it be boy, girl, boyfriend or girlfriend. Anyone who's anyone would want to offer their support.

She should only feel disrespectful if she feels that he is guilty.

 

[MeeBee]

Lost for words, LOL.

I just fail to see how it's disrespectful to Reeva's family?