Trial Discussion Thread #30

[Cape Town Crim.]

I think we know who the Col. is--van Rensburg. And we already know by his own admission/testimony that he allowed Amee P. all over the crime scene and to take at least one of OP's watches. And van Rensburg got there very early from a nearby crime scene.

So imo it was not a low cop, but a high cop, who allowed what I called IDT (initial defense team of Carl, Aimee, Arnold, Oldwage) to take items.

I have long speculated about Oldwage arriving very early too. and I am "sure" it relates mostly to the 5th phone...

I really enjoy your thinking. Great thought patterns!

Things to chew on.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

I believe all information on that phone was likely deleted/completely and permanently removed. (they had 2 weeks to do that - and there are many hackers in Jhb, more than equipped to do just that) The state's witness said something to this effect as well. He also mentioned that they discovered the existence of this phone quite by accident. (Cellular phone records from TWO numbers)

The fact that getting that phone off the scene was so important tells an unpleasant story.
I can't see the police, even one of the juniors, giving anyone permission to remove that phone from the scene: Unless on order. The only alternative to the police 'allowing' someone to remove the phone 'legally', is the alternative I believe to be true. It was taken to protect Oscar.

I believe that Gerrie Nel will be bringing all of these loose threads together either in cross examination of upcoming defense witnesses, or if the opportunity presents when the state reopen their case, or MOST DEF in closing arguments. Closing argument will be the first time the state's case is laid out in it's entirety. A to Z.

Hope you don't mind me asking but Who do you think may have been responsible for removing watches from the scene. I was under the impression that all police personnel were searched before they left the crime scene ?
My mind runs overtime and I have always wondered if one of the watches was in some way damaged .

 

[shane13]

I believe all information on that phone was likely deleted/completely and permanently removed. (they had 2 weeks to do that - and there are many hackers in Jhb, more than equipped to do just that) The state's witness said something to this effect as well. He also mentioned that they discovered the existence of this phone quite by accident. (Cellular phone records from TWO numbers)

The fact that getting that phone off the scene was so important tells an unpleasant story.
I can't see the police, even one of the juniors, giving anyone permission to remove that phone from the scene: Unless on order. The only alternative to the police 'allowing' someone to remove the phone 'legally', is the alternative I believe to be true. It was taken to protect Oscar.

I believe that Gerrie Nel will be bringing all of these loose threads together either in cross examination of upcoming defense witnesses, or if the opportunity presents when the state reopen their case, or MOST DEF in closing arguments. Closing argument will be the first time the state's case is laid out in it's entirety. A to Z.

BBM
I appreciate all your comments now!

And I don't know if or how long you've been following my writings here.
But I disagree on the BIB.

My repeated "this one runs deep" includes that Pros has not charged or ordered investigation into taking items from the crime scene. And will likely not start to do so now. Indeed many have said the questioning of OP and others could have been better. but the lack of prosecutorial effort re the 5th phone is evident ,and I do not believe will change. I'd be happy to be proven wrong though.

I am also glad that you cite that Govt corruption may be involved in this matter.

But as a person who knows things deeply, I would say this matter runs higher than Govt. MOO

 

[TrueDetective]

CARRIED OVER FROM THREAD 29




All points well taken (and lol to the joke), although may I add that it was not my intention to be personal. Again I was just offering a helpful tip that you can take or leave. You seem to be an intelligent person. I just feel that you can perhaps enhance that smart investigative mind of yours and make it really laser targeted by doing what I suggested, but I'm sorry if that sounded a little too forward.

I was once described by an ex gf mine who has an MS in sub-sea engineering, someone with a very smart mind (much like yours), as "brilliantly perceptive". I don't say that to boast. I say it because I want to share with you something about the way I think so that you can better understand my thinking on the OP case. I don't look at someone and simply take away surface impressions. Or at least I don't satisfy myself with those. I go right down deep, as one would go deep into a mine rich in gems of inestimable value, and look for the gems that I know are inside them.

Or to put it another way, I'm not interested in all the circus antics I see on the surface. I want the inside scoop.

Hi James, with all due respect - none of us need to, or should be trying to sell our intelligence and perception levels in order to defend our posts. They 'speak' for themselves...
It is pretty evident that this forum is full of people with keen intellects, very sharp minds with depth of feeling and insight.

If you are going to try to put yourself on a pedestal in order to validate your opinion you must be prepared to be knocked off on occasion. I am certainly not going to do that but what I will say is that I don't feel that you have always applied sound logic and critical thinking in your theories and your overview is in my view, quite a long way from the truth in this case. Tip is on much firmer ground here IMO and I don't think she deserved that particular response from you.

However, it's a great mixing pot, we should be good natured and good humoured and I know I welcome the challenges to my own theories. I think we all do.

It keeps me sharp, on the edge, where I gotta be... (Heat, 1995)
:twocents:

 

[Cape Town Crim.]

Lets hope he receives all the treatment he requires at a speedier pace than has been the case in the UK . He was allowed to have his own camper van in the grounds of the UK facility which shocked me . What if all patients were to request the same . Seemed to be special treatment IMO

His own camper van? Unreal. It is the same here actually, he was flown in on a R3 million private flight to his own room at Valkenberg.
There is a LOT of unhappiness and rumbling about that in SA (although I can understand the NPA being very careful in terms of how he is treated, considering the processes followed in getting him here)
He is another who will in all probability never see the inside of a :jail:

Terrible actually.

Oscar's case is similar. There will be trouble on the streets if Oscar is not convicted. In a country such as SA, the case is not as simple as an acquittal or a guilty. The entire criminal justice system with it's 'perceived' prejudice is on trial. The political ramifications are as great as the legal ones.

Add to that, Oscar was every cabinet minister's fave fashion accessory (seen draping them at fancy events) with all the inferences that come with this.

I would not be surprised if M'lady needs protection at some stage. (She has basic protection already I'm certain)
Both sides will be up in arms if the outcome doesn't go 'their' way. And there are some seriously 'deluded' OP fans walking amongst us.......

 

[Val1]

I really enjoy your thinking. Great thought patterns!

Things to chew on.

Just wondering, do you think that Annemarie at both the bail hearing and the beginning of this trial has any bearing/connection on some of what can only be called "caretaking"(stroking by family and medical in the courtroom, Stander and family at the estate, interference by many levels of law enforcement) of OP?

 

[Cape Town Crim.]

Hope you don't mind me asking but Who do you think may have been responsible for removing watches from the scene. I was under the impression that all police personnel were searched before they left the crime scene ?
My mind runs overtime and I have always wondered if one of the watches was in some way damaged .

The stolen watch.
I believe it was someone from 'Team' Oscar. It was actually an ingenious thought. Take the focus away from Oscar and the ACTUAL crime scene. Put the focus on the 'thieving, incompetent, tampering' policemen.

This 'smart' defense (to use at a later stage to make the police look bad, thereby putting their WHOLE investigation along with their observations into doubt) tactic would not have come from Oscar.
This was a smarter brain than his at work. A brain that knows how to 'deflect' and shift focus from what is ACTUALLY relevant.

I won't say who I think it is. But it's someone who was well aware of the implications of such a 'move', and how these implications could assist the accused at a later stage. It is also someone who was on the scene legitimately - and perhaps left alone for a little too long, because of 'who' he was and the expected 'ethics' of him and his 'sort'.

 

[Cape Town Crim.]

Time to drag my aching body out of bed and get ready for Easter Lunch.

Have a wonderful day all.

Will be back later. (Why is this forum so addictive??????)

I really enjoy all of your thoughts and opinions.

:seeya:

 

[K.T]

Time to drag my aching body out of bed and get ready for Easter Lunch.

Have a wonderful day all.

Will be back later. (Why is this forum so addictive??????)

I really enjoy all of your thoughts and opinions.

:seeya:

Thank you sincerely Cape Town Crim for all this new information and for your perspective.

Definitely there’s more now to chew on - it’s illuminating and confounding at the same time.

The idea that the scene was compromised has always been a nasty part of this case. Shane has been keeping the issue of a comprised crime scene (in the opposite direction to what Pistorius wants the court to believe) relevant to what this may mean about connections and context.

Look forward to reading your posts, Happy Easter!

 

[TrueDetective]

The stolen watch.
I believe it was someone from 'Team' Oscar. It was actually an ingenious thought. Take the focus away from Oscar and the ACTUAL crime scene. Put the focus on the 'thieving, incompetent, tampering' policemen.

This 'smart' defense (to use at a later stage to make the police look bad, thereby putting their WHOLE investigation along with their observations into doubt) tactic would not have come from Oscar.
This was a smarter brain than his at work. A brain that knows how to 'deflect' and shift focus from what is ACTUALLY relevant.

I won't say who I think it is. But it's someone who was well aware of the implications of such a 'move', and how these implications could assist the accused at a later stage. It is also someone who was on the scene legitimately - and perhaps left alone for a little too long, because of 'who' he was and the expected 'ethics' of him and his 'sort'.

Shocking, just shocking. (If true)
The level to which people descend in order to protect themselves or others for financial/political/criminal reasons never ceases to amaze and despair.

I am guessing you are alluding to it being our friend Oldwage.
He does not strike me as being a pleasant individual. That's putting it very mildly.

 

[Bazinga]

CARRIED OVER FROM THREAD 29




All points well taken (and lol to the joke), although may I add that it was not my intention to be personal. Again I was just offering a helpful tip that you can take or leave. You seem to be an intelligent person. I just feel that you can perhaps enhance that smart investigative mind of yours and make it really laser targeted by doing what I suggested, but I'm sorry if that sounded a little too forward.

I was once described by an ex gf mine who has an MS in sub-sea engineering, someone with a very smart mind (much like yours), as "brilliantly perceptive". I don't say that to boast. I say it because I want to share with you something about the way I think so that you can better understand my thinking on the OP case. I don't look at someone and simply take away surface impressions. Or at least I don't satisfy myself with those. I go right down deep, as one would go deep into a mine rich in gems of inestimable value, and look for the gems that I know are inside them.

Or to put it another way, I'm not interested in all the circus antics I see on the surface. I want the inside scoop.

:floorlaugh: thank you - this post explains a lot.

 

[TrueDetective]

I believe all information on that phone was likely deleted/completely and permanently removed. (they had 2 weeks to do that - and there are many hackers in Jhb, more than equipped to do just that) The state's witness said something to this effect as well. He also mentioned that they discovered the existence of this phone quite by accident. (Cellular phone records from TWO numbers)

The fact that getting that phone off the scene was so important tells an unpleasant story.
I can't see the police, even one of the juniors, giving anyone permission to remove that phone from the scene: Unless on order. The only alternative to the police 'allowing' someone to remove the phone 'legally', is the alternative I believe to be true. It was taken to protect Oscar.

I believe that Gerrie Nel will be bringing all of these loose threads together either in cross examination of upcoming defense witnesses, or if the opportunity presents when the state reopen their case, or MOST DEF in closing arguments. Closing argument will be the first time the state's case is laid out in it's entirety. A to Z.

BIB truly shocking if true. You believe this to be the case and I bow to your insight and proximity to this. I would like to ask you a further question to this cape - if you could speculate, what do you think might have been deleted from the phone? Was it the smoking gun?

Finally, I am heartened to read again of the confidence you have in Nel and his bringing everything together for the first time. I do hope that some of it can be done in x-exam and/or rebuttal as I really feel strongly that there are areas worthy of much deeper questioning

 

[Gbtaketwo]

His own camper van? Unreal. It is the same here actually, he was flown in on a R3 million private flight to his own room at Valkenberg.
There is a LOT of unhappiness and rumbling about that in SA (although I can understand the NPA being very careful in terms of how he is treated, considering the processes followed in getting him here)
He is another who will in all probability never see the inside of a :jail:

Terrible actually.

Oscar's case is similar. There will be trouble on the streets if Oscar is not convicted. In a country such as SA, the case is not as simple as an acquittal or a guilty. The entire criminal justice system with it's 'perceived' prejudice is on trial. The political ramifications are as great as the legal ones.

Add to that, Oscar was every cabinet minister's fave fashion accessory (seen draping them at fancy events) with all the inferences that come with this.

I would not be surprised if M'lady needs protection at some stage. (She has basic protection already I'm certain)
Both sides will be up in arms if the outcome doesn't go 'their' way. And there are some seriously 'deluded' OP fans walking amongst us.......

Hope to see you over on the Dewani thread when that gets started . This case has a lot of interest in the UK as well . He does have the right to a fair trial and I hope justice will be served even if he stays in a mental hospital it is still incarceration and punishment .Although my gut instinct is he should go to jail,
I will follow all the evidence as it unfolds to see if that opinion changes.

With regard to OP case ,I kind of like the judge and think she seems astute so hope for the best here .
Hopefully she stays safe whatever her decision at the end of the day as I am sure it will be through sound reasoning from the legal perspective something which I don't have .

 

[Gbtaketwo]

The stolen watch.
I believe it was someone from 'Team' Oscar. It was actually an ingenious thought. Take the focus away from Oscar and the ACTUAL crime scene. Put the focus on the 'thieving, incompetent, tampering' policemen.

This 'smart' defense (to use at a later stage to make the police look bad, thereby putting their WHOLE investigation along with their observations into doubt) tactic would not have come from Oscar.
This was a smarter brain than his at work. A brain that knows how to 'deflect' and shift focus from what is ACTUALLY relevant.

I won't say who I think it is. But it's someone who was well aware of the implications of such a 'move', and how these implications could assist the accused at a later stage. It is also someone who was on the scene legitimately - and perhaps left alone for a little too long, because of 'who' he was and the expected 'ethics' of him and his 'sort'.

Thanks for your reply . I personally didn't think it had been taken by the police . It certainly has caused problems for the state so if that was the tactic which is certainly possible then they have been successful .
It is frustrating when things can't be proven one way or another .

 

[Murphys_Law]

Morning all.
Just wondering... Could the first shots possibly have been air rifle shots?
Does anyone know how loud air rifle shots are, in comparison to bats on door?
We are speculating that the hole in the bedroom door might be an air rifle shot but could there have been multiple air rifle shots?
And what about the 5th cartridge (pistol)? Is there any evidence at all where this 5th shot was fired and at what stage?
Could the hole in the bedroom door be the 5th shot?
If the 5th cartridge was found in/near bathroom could Oscar have used his trip upstairs to move the cartridge there so as to take focus off bedroom door
Not that he needed to worry, it's hardly been mentioned.
Bit confused with above, any ideas?

I really don't know what to think . I am not sure whether it was a slip of the tongue about a fifth cartridge. Some believe it would have been corrected on the record if it weren't true .
I think the air rifle had a silencer on .
Do you know where the fifth cartridge was supposed to have been found ?

These are terrific questions by TrueDetective and Gbtaketwo!
My 2 cents on a few of the questions….


Is there a 5th cartridge or was it a slip of the tongue?
I say yes, there is. Why?
No one corrected the number - not Roux, not Mangena, not the judge, nor her 2 assessors - that is 5 people in a position of authority to hear it and correct it did not.

Could the first shots possibly have been air rifle shots?
Absolutely. Although the prosecution's narrative behind photos 40 thru 44 has not been provided, these are clearly bullet type marks/holes made by projectiles of approx 4.5 mm/ .177 inch diameter. Judging from the photos shown (note, not all 11 photos labelled #40 thu to#50 were visible on the video recording), I believe there were at least two shots on the bedroom door - one most certainly went thru the door, the other, with an entrance on the TV/sitting room side of the is indeterminate because the exit side was not displayed on the video recording by SABCdiditalnews. see attached photo

Does anyone know how loud air rifle shots are, in comparison to bats on door?
Some air rifles have the capacity to generate a sonic crack. No bats wielded under human power can generate a sonic crack on this planet.

Could the hole in the bedroom door be the 5th shot?
If by 5th shot, you mean the 5th cartridge referred to by Nel, then I say NO for two reasons:

• The holes in the bedroom are 4.5 mm calibre/ diameter, while the holes in the bathroom door are 9mm -- therefore, different weapons were used.
• Since Nel has loosely implied by way of photographs, that it was the air gun that made the holes in the bedroom door, and we know that air guns use solid pellets - that is, there is no cartridge casing on a pellet.

If the 5th cartridge was found in/near bathroom could Oscar have used his trip upstairs to move the cartridge there so as to take focus off bedroom door
Yes! Through testimony thus far, we know Oscar made 3 trips upstairs before the police arrived.


Is it a silencer or a compensator?
When I first saw the air gun photo I thought it was a silencer. Now I am not so sure. After a bit of research I am thinking its just a compensator - a piece of add on equipment that is claimed to improve the accuracy, direct the CO2 gases away from the shooter, and to give the rifle a more tactical look - had a good laugh when I read that in more than one place.
That said, it does not matter at all whether it was a compensator or a silencer because neither of those attachments suppress the sound of a sonic crack. The silencer only suppresses the sound of the muzzle blast.


References


http://www.airgunhome.com/pages/silencers.html
What sounds do come from a gun when fired: trigger/hammer noise, muzzle blast, sonic crack, target impact
Silencers do not address the sounds produced by action cycling, target impact or sonic crack. Silencers only deal with muzzle blast.



http://www.straightshooters.com/general-airgun-information.html

General info on air guns

Cropped screen shots of door taken from​

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAWZWcw62KY​

 

[Viper]

IIRC The fifth bullet was the one that the forensic officer ejected from the gun to render it safe. That involves removing the magazine (clip) that has the reserve bullets and then pulling the slide back to eject the one bullet that was in the chamber - 5th bullet.

Air rifles are used for competition shooting and hunting small game. Many hunters use a silencer because it does reduce the noise to almost nothing when the rifle is fired; this is very helpful because firing the rifle won't scare away all of the other nearby game, rabbit and squirrels usually.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

These are terrific questions by TrueDetective and Gbtaketwo!
My 2 cents of some of a few of the questions….


Is there a 5th cartridge or was it a slip of the tongue?
I say yes, there is. Why?
No one corrected the number - not Roux, not Mangena, not the judge, nor her 2 assessors - that is 5 people in a position of authority to hear it and correct it did not.

Could the first shots possibly have been air rifle shots?
Absolutely. Although the prosecution's narrative behind photos 40 thru 44 has not been provided, these are clearly bullet type marks/holes made by projectiles of approx 4.5 mm/ .177 inch diameter. Judging from the photos shown (note, not all 11 photos labelled #40 thu to#50 were visible on the video recording), I believe there were at least two shots on the bedroom door - one most certainly went thru the door, the other, with an entrance on the TV/sitting room side of the is indeterminate because the exit side was not displayed on the video recording by SABCdiditalnews. see attached photo

Does anyone know how loud air rifle shots are, in comparison to bats on door?
Some air rifles have the capacity to generate a sonic crack. No bats wielded under human power can generate a sonic crack on this planet.

Could the hole in the bedroom door be the 5th shot?
If by 5th shot, you mean the 5th cartridge referred to by Nel, then I say NO for two reasons:

• The holes in the bedroom are 4.5 mm calibre/ diameter, while the holes in the bathroom door are 9mm -- therefore, different weapons were used.
• Since Nel has loosely implied by way of photographs, that it was the air gun that made the holes in the bedroom door, and we know that air guns use solid pellets - that is, there is no cartridge casing on a pellet.

If the 5th cartridge was found in/near bathroom could Oscar have used his trip upstairs to move the cartridge there so as to take focus off bedroom door
Yes! Through testimony thus far, we know Oscar made 3 trips upstairs before the police arrived.


Is it a silencer or a compensator?
When I first saw the air gun photo I thought it was a silencer. Now I am not so sure. After a bit of research I am thinking its just a compensator - a piece of add on equipment that is claimed to improve the accuracy, direct the CO2 gases away from the shooter, and to give the rifle a more tactical look - had a good laugh when I read that in more than one place.
That said, it does not matter at all whether it was a compensator or a silencer because neither of those attachments suppress the sound of a sonic crack. The silencer only suppresses the sound of the muzzle blast.


References


http://www.airgunhome.com/pages/silencers.html
What sounds do come from a gun when fired: trigger/hammer noise, muzzle blast, sonic crack, target impact
Silencers do not address the sounds produced by action cycling, target impact or sonic crack. Silencers only deal with muzzle blast.



http://www.straightshooters.com/general-airgun-information.html

General info on air guns

Cropped screen shots of door taken from​

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAWZWcw62KY​

Thanks for the reply it is very interesting . I had ruled out the air pistol with regard to noise because I had thought it did have the silencer .
What is also interesting is the extra mark on the door . I am so perplexed why we haven't heard more on this during ballistic testimony and cross examination of OP .
Funnily enough if the air pistol could be a loud noise and I have to say my sons is quite loud and that is not a very expensive or powerful one then maybe this could be the first threats that caused Reeva to scream and run to the toilet which is the sort of screaming Mrs Stipp's described .
I guess all this may not be proven but I am eagerly awaiting Nel's cross of the defence experts and closing arguments . Need to lie down now as all this makes my head spin

 

[Val1]

Now I'm really confused... Gerard Labuschagne is the one who introduced himself to OP as a friend of OP's family... possible connection to OP's profiler Aunt?

Alright, the reason I find this whole thing with the family friend suspect is because there is blood between them. How close the family connection is I'm not sure, maybe they're shooting cousins. I was doing some research on it but it's 5:30am here and I need some sleep so it will have to wait. Suffice it to say that I get a little wary when I do a simple search and this info pops up.bbm

http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Labuschagne-67

Elisabeth Maria Pistorius formerly Labuschagne
(Carl August Theodor Pistorius ancestors descendants (May 4, 1853 - 1918) m. Elisabeth Maria Labuschagne )

 

[Viper]

I think we know who the Col. is--van Rensburg. And we already know by his own admission/testimony that he allowed Amee P. all over the crime scene and to take at least one of OP's watches. And van Rensburg got there very early from a nearby crime scene.

So imo it was not a low cop, but a high cop, who allowed what I called IDT (initial defense team of Carl, Aimee, Arnold, Oldwage) to take items.

I have long speculated about Oldwage arriving very early too. and I am "sure" it relates mostly to the 5th phone...

BIB. Someone took the watch that the Colonel identified as being the most expensive. That it was the most expensive one in his eyes is interesting to me. It may be that he wanted it. He had everyone and their cars searched and the watch was not found. Was the Colonel searched? Hmm...

 

[Val1]

IIRC The fifth bullet was the one that the forensic officer ejected from the gun to render it safe. That involves removing the magazine (clip) that has the reserve bullets and then pulling the slide back to eject the one bullet that was in the chamber - 5th bullet.

Air rifles are used for competition shooting and hunting small game. Many hunters use a silencer because it does reduce the noise to almost nothing when the rifle is fired; this is very helpful because firing the rifle won't scare away all of the other nearby game, rabbit and squirrels usually.

bbm - Well they do kill small game and I bet those pellets could have made the marks on RS's back too, along with a few bat whacks to her legs. Speaking of rabbits, I wonder if that pic of RS with the rabbit hood was from before they met or was it a gift from OP like the black hoodie? Perhaps in his sinister mind, he was hunting "wabbit"...