Trial Discussion Thread #30

[Cape Town Crim.]

Thank you so much, CTC!

We have here now an honest South African attorney to refer to!

Not an attorney, no.

Involved in the criminal justice system yes. Different profession, but can be utilized as an 'expert witness' - and NO :floorlaugh: I'm not Roger Dixon.

I have an interest in this case that is professional as well as 'dare I say it'; a hunger for the truth.

Shrien Dewani is another wherein my professional interest is seriously matched with my 'personal' desire to know the truth.

 

[PPKik]

Morning all.
Just wondering... Could the first shots possibly have been air rifle shots?
Does anyone know how loud air rifle shots are, in comparison to bats on door?
We are speculating that the hole in the bedroom door might be an air rifle shot but could there have been multiple air rifle shots?
And what about the 5th cartridge (pistol)? Is there any evidence at all where this 5th shot was fired and at what stage?
Could the hole in the bedroom door be the 5th shot?
If the 5th cartridge was found in/near bathroom could Oscar have used his trip upstairs to move the cartridge there so as to take focus off bedroom door
Not that he needed to worry, it's hardly been mentioned.
Bit confused with above, any ideas?

Are you saying there is a fifth cartridge?

Wouldn't crime scene analysts know the difference between a 9mm bullet hole and an air rifle round through a door?

I have read on OP threads about an air rifle or possible rounds fired from one. Is this a theory to account for unaccounted for sounds or a hole in the bedroom door?

I am confused too.

 

[Cape Town Crim.]

Great stuff cape. I have been looking forward to your next posts and well done on your run. I was supposed to be in a 100km cycle sportive today but my injury has forced me off my bike for a few weeks

1. That is fascinating and an amazing scoop if true, as nothing has been reported.
Could you offer the reasons this may be so - the grounds on which the investigation could be reopened. I am assuming it would be to rebut any changes in plea due to mental issues.
But you also mention rebutting following Dixon/Wolmarans and the ballistics which surprises me considering the dreadful standard of his testimony and tests.

2. I did wonder if it was a language issue and glad to have confirmation. He did not come across well.

5. The scheduling issue is a joke. I knew it as soon as I read it, does not ring true AT ALL. The fact that the DT have lied about it just confirms my belief that DTs DO lie. That they do support liars. That they twist and conceal the truth.
I know how the system works and why it is a necessary thing (evil) but it does not sit well with me.

Sorry to hear about your injury. It's the absolute worst having to cut back on training or pull out of scheduled events due to injury - so frustrating. :tantrum: (I pull an Oscar when I'm injured. Incredible tantrums)

Because the state have ZERO idea as to what the defense will present in court in terms of evidence, expert witnesses etc (The Defense right to silence) it is rather common within SA law for the state to apply to re-open their case in order to rebut any evidence that has been 'sprung on them'. In this case, a recall of Capt Mangena for starters is not out of the question (after Dixon's waffling and the as yet unknown evidence of Wolmarans), but the state will definitely apply to re-open their case, in order to call their 'expert - Prof Gerard Labuschagne - as soon as a psychologist takes the stand for the defense.

 

[shane13]

Shane
I agree that it is more than possible that other items were taken.
I also think its more than possible he would have a 'backup' gun.

They had to return the 5th phone because its existence was known.
They had to return the ammo because its existence was known.
They would not return (or be asked to return) anything that LA weren't aware of so there is a chance there was a matching firearm as nobody surely believes the "looking after it for daddy" story.
However, I'm not sure how this relates to the night in question and it would seem to only be related to avoiding further gun charges, which are serious but in my mind, not the main focus.
I am interested in the 5th cartridge and in the hole to the bedroom door but I can't make the link to your theory.
However, I do think evidence was removed and/or cleaned/changed by OP, his first helpers and perhaps your IDT.

Its extremely frustrating that we probably don't have the full and true picture of the scene and perhaps crucial phone evidence but its completely gone and so it makes speculation even more dubious than what we can work from.

BBM: Don't agree at all.
Speculation is speculation. And it is fine and harmless as long as it is cited as that. But I see where you are coming from.
Until those involved in removing and giving crime scene items are charged with crimes, all I can do is use logic and will continue to do so.

What people should be doing is what I have done.
Stating that what was allowed into evidence--the data ALLEGEDLY on the 5th phone that DT had for 16 days with zero chain of custody, is far worse than dubious.

It is against the standards of jurisprudence to enter that into evidence. And it is a crime on both sides--"given to/taken by."

And re the new logial implication I raised above: Who knows maybe the theoretical gun and/or other items will surface one day? Only chance is if people and reporters or such continue to focus on them.

 

[shane13]

Not an attorney, no.

Involved in the criminal justice system yes. Different profession, but can be utilized as an 'expert witness' - and NO :floorlaugh: I'm not Roger Dixon.

I have an interest in this case that is professional as well as 'dare I say it'; a hunger for the truth.

Shrien Dewani is another wherein my professional interest is seriously matched with my 'personal' desire to know the truth.

Shucks, thanks.

 

[TrueDetective]

Are you saying there is a fifth cartridge?

Wouldn't crime scene analysts know the difference between a 9mm bullet hole and an air rifle round through a door?

I have read on OP threads about an air rifle or possible rounds fired from one. Is this a theory to account for unaccounted for sounds or a hole in the bedroom door?

I am confused too.

BIB 1 you would certainly think so. But for whatever reason, the damage to the bedroom door has largely been ignored and has not been examined in any detail in testimony or questioning. Yet. Some people have surmised that Nel is keeping it simple and focusing on the bathroom but I've always found this inexplicable to me. However I have to have faith that it will become important.

BIB 2 yes!! There has to be an explanation. We have not been given one and OP has not even been asked to provide one. Bizarre!
If OP is claiming the damage to the door was due to his barging about to take RS downstairs, it doesn't account for a small hole through the door hence my questions.
Again, I find it incredible that such a detail has been pushed into a corner, because to me it's the elephant in the room.

 

[Cape Town Crim.]

Again thank you for "corroboration"!

But any Pistorius family members or Oldwage rummaging about and into a safe could only have been allowed by cops, no?

And more people there? Yes I know of at least one--the locksmith who opened the safe for Carl and Oldwage.

WHo else?

I have zero doubt that one or more of the less experienced/weaker policemen at the scene would have either succumbed to a rather bombastic Oldwage ordering then around, OR they would have reacted to what they thought was a legitimate order from a senior officer.

The mysterious Colonel (he who's name may not be mentioned) has a lot of explaining to do. IMHO of course.

It is my experience that junior uniformed officers and detectives only do what comes from above - either from an outside authority figure (who sounds convincing through legal argument) or from a senior officer.

Someone was looking after the accused's interests. Once more IMHO.

Oldwage is key to this. The fact that he arrived faster than the speed of light is extremely rare in SA history. A defense advocate (Now Oscar's junior counsel - Barry is the senior counsel obviously) on a crime scene is almost unheard of in these parts.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

Not an attorney, no.

Involved in the criminal justice system yes. Different profession, but can be utilized as an 'expert witness' - and NO :floorlaugh: I'm not Roger Dixon.

I have an interest in this case that is professional as well as 'dare I say it'; a hunger for the truth.

Shrien Dewani is another wherein my professional interest is seriously matched with my 'personal' desire to know the truth.

Yes it has been a very long wait getting him back to SA to face justice.
It must have been very tough for Anni parents waiting all this time.
I have felt embarrassed to be British with how he has managed to evade extradition for so long .

 

[shane13]

Sorry to hear about your injury. It's the absolute worst having to cut back on training or pull out of scheduled events due to injury - so frustrating. :tantrum: (I pull an Oscar when I'm injured. Incredible tantrums)

Because the state have ZERO idea as to what the defense will present in court in terms of evidence, expert witnesses etc (The Defense right to silence) it is rather common within SA law for the state to apply to re-open their case in order to rebut any evidence that has been 'sprung on them'. In this case, a recall of Capt Mangena for starters is not out of the question (after Dixon's waffling and the as yet unknown evidence of Wolmarans), but the state will definitely apply to re-open their case, in order to call their 'expert - Prof Gerard Labuschagne - as soon as a psychologist takes the stand for the defense.

But isn't Labuschagne dubious?

I don't know if you saw my psots from a previous thread, and/or you already know these things better tyhan I could?

Labuschagne is the one who told OP at the crime scene that everyting was going to be Ok, and that he's a friend of a family member. I deduced that most lkely that was Aunt Micki P. who was SAPS 1st profiler of killers.

I am weary of Brig Gen Dr. Labuschagne testifying for Pros. I thought he also was a possible witnes for DT?

Can a person be both?

 

[Gbtaketwo]

I have zero doubt that one or more of the less experienced/weaker policemen at the scene would have either succumbed to a rather bombastic Oldwage ordering then around, OR they would have reacted to what they thought was a legitimate order from a senior officer.

The mysterious Colonel (he who's name may not be mentioned) has a lot of explaining to do. IMHO of course.

It is my experience that junior uniformed officers and detectives only do what comes from above - either from an outside authority figure (who sounds convincing through legal argument) or from a senior officer.

Someone was looking after the accused's interests. Once more IMHO.

Oldwage is key to this. The fact that he arrived faster than the speed of light is extremely rare in SA history. A defense advocate (Now Oscar's junior counsel - Barry is the senior counsel obviously) on a crime scene is almost unheard of in these parts.

There must have been something very important on The dongle or do you just think it was to generally protect OP regarding the murder charges or both ?

 

[patCee]

Morning all.
Just wondering... Could the first shots possibly have been air rifle shots?
Does anyone know how loud air rifle shots are, in comparison to bats on door?
We are speculating that the hole in the bedroom door might be an air rifle shot but could there have been multiple air rifle shots?
And what about the 5th cartridge (pistol)? Is there any evidence at all where this 5th shot was fired and at what stage?
Could the hole in the bedroom door be the 5th shot?
If the 5th cartridge was found in/near bathroom could Oscar have used his trip upstairs to move the cartridge there so as to take focus off bedroom door
Not that he needed to worry, it's hardly been mentioned.
Bit confused with above, any ideas?

Below are some references to 5th bullet/cartridge. Seems a bit vague really. Need to listen to that part of the trial again re Magena, perhaps later when more time.

Nel then asks him if he was interested in seeing the position of the “5” cartridge cases on the scene, and he says yes that’s correct. There were only 4 bullet holes so why 5 cartridges? I wonder if Nel just misspoke or if there is something more we are yet to find out?

One final point that Roux makes; the Defense found one spent bullet inside of the toilet and two bullet fragments inside the magazine rack that the initial investigators on the scene did not find. Mangena is aware of this.

http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/03/22/oscar-pistorius-trial-days-12-and-13/

 

[shane13]

I have zero doubt that one or more of the less experienced/weaker policemen at the scene would have either succumbed to a rather bombastic Oldwage ordering then around, OR they would have reacted to what they thought was a legitimate order from a senior officer.

The mysterious Colonel (he who's name may not be mentioned) has a lot of explaining to do. IMHO of course.

It is my experience that junior uniformed officers and detectives only do what comes from above - either from an outside authority figure (who sounds convincing through legal argument) or from a senior officer.

Someone was looking after the accused's interests. Once more IMHO.

Oldwage is key to this. The fact that he arrived faster than the speed of light is extremely rare in SA history. A defense advocate (Now Oscar's junior counsel - Barry is the senior counsel obviously) on a crime scene is almost unheard of in these parts.

I think we know who the Col. is--van Rensburg. And we already know by his own admission/testimony that he allowed Amee P. all over the crime scene and to take at least one of OP's watches. And van Rensburg got there very early from a nearby crime scene.

So imo it was not a low cop, but a high cop, who allowed what I called IDT (initial defense team of Carl, Aimee, Arnold, Oldwage) to take items.

I have long speculated about Oldwage arriving very early too. and I am "sure" it relates mostly to the 5th phone...

 

[Cape Town Crim.]

Yes it has been a very long wait getting him back to SA to face justice.
It must have been very tough for Anni parents waiting all this time.
I have felt embarrassed to be British with how he has managed to evade extradition for so long .

Shrien is apparently a huge 'hit' (apologies for the inference) at Valkenberg.

He is charming the socks off nurses, cleaning staff, medical practitioners and the sort. He apparently had an 'episode' when his bed squeaked during the cleaning of his 'room'.

He freaked out (as per Post Traumatic stress symptoms 101......) and was carted off for treatment only to return much later.

:banghead:

 

[Val1]

Sorry to hear about your injury. It's the absolute worst having to cut back on training or pull out of scheduled events due to injury - so frustrating. :tantrum: (I pull an Oscar when I'm injured. Incredible tantrums)

Because the state have ZERO idea as to what the defense will present in court in terms of evidence, expert witnesses etc (The Defense right to silence) it is rather common within SA law for the state to apply to re-open their case in order to rebut any evidence that has been 'sprung on them'. In this case, a recall of Capt Mangena for starters is not out of the question (after Dixon's waffling and the as yet unknown evidence of Wolmarans), but the state will definitely apply to re-open their case, in order to call their 'expert - Prof Gerard Labuschagne - as soon as a psychologist takes the stand for the defense.

Now I'm really confused... Gerard Labuschagne is the one who introduced himself to OP as a friend of OP's family... possible connection to OP's profiler Aunt?

 

[TrueDetective]

BBM: Don't agree at all.
Speculation is speculation. And it is fine and harmless as long as it is cited as that. But I see where you are coming from.
Until those involved in removing and giving crime scene items are charged with crimes, all I can do is use logic and will continue to do so.

What people should be doing is what I have done.
Stating that what was allowed into evidence--the data ALLEGEDLY on the 5th phone that DT had for 16 days with zero chain of custody, is far worse than dubious.

It is against the standards of jurisprudence to enter that into evidence. And it is a crime on both sides--"given to/taken by."

And re the new logial implication I raised above: Who knows maybe the theoretical gun and/or other items will surface one day? Only chance is if people and reporters or such continue to focus on them.

I admire your diligence in this area. We need 'experts' in all aspects of the case.
I am fuming about the phone and again, amazed that so far it has been brushed aside.
I'd like to know what cape thinks in detail to your theory, especially the phone.

 

[James50]

CARRIED OVER FROM THREAD 29

BIB 1

Something he's bound by law to do unless he wishes to flee, thus becoming a fugitive. Not the same thing as taking responsibility as a gun owner or taking responsibility for killing someone. He's required by law to be there, it's not by choice.

BIB 2

That's his defense and not him taking responsibility at all (certainly not by calling it a mistake when it wasn't a mistake - he shot at and through a door knowing a human being was behind it and would be struck by the bullets). It was his gun in his home and he had no one else to blame.

All points well taken (and lol to the joke), although may I add that it was not my intention to be personal. Again I was just offering a helpful tip that you can take or leave. You seem to be an intelligent person. I just feel that you can perhaps enhance that smart investigative mind of yours and make it really laser targeted by doing what I suggested, but I'm sorry if that sounded a little too forward.

I was once described by an ex gf mine who has an MS in sub-sea engineering, someone with a very smart mind (much like yours), as "brilliantly perceptive". I don't say that to boast. I say it because I want to share with you something about the way I think so that you can better understand my thinking on the OP case. I don't look at someone and simply take away surface impressions. Or at least I don't satisfy myself with those. I go right down deep, as one would go deep into a mine rich in gems of inestimable value, and look for the gems that I know are inside them.

Or to put it another way, I'm not interested in all the circus antics I see on the surface. I want the inside scoop.

 

[Mme Butterfly]

OK then.


More On the .38 ammo Oscar had in his safe--which someone took from the crime scene ©Shane13

Again this is a serious crime both for whoever took it, and for whichever COP gave it to apparently, Carl, Aimee, Arnold, or Oldwage. It is implied a very high level cop. But this is speculation.

One of the reasons I keep citing the things removed and/or given to shall we say "Initial Defense Team'. [I like this term I just coined, so I will use it and abbreviate it as IDT] is that since we know of 2 crucial items of evidence that were taken/given to IDT, is it not reasonable to assume that other items may have also been taken by/given to IDT?

And these may be even more crucial to OP, and so these theoretical items have not been cited by anyone.

Now the first thing that comes to mind that may have been taken by IDT relates to one of the items that we know was taken. The item taken is the .38 ammo, and we know that Oscar tried to pin the rap on his dad, Henke. Henke refused to take the rap. I conclude that perhaps Oscar had another gun at home, that he had no license to own.

Now especially when you consider Oscar’s state of mind, he could always have thought to himself, what if my one and only gun jammed? I must have a 2nd gun at home.

And if he had a .38 revolver, could he have used it either before at home if he “lost it’ at the mo, or even possibly that fateful night?

And its existence has possibly been covered up by both sides.

It was actually Det. Botha who cited the .38 ammo being taken and that earlier top cop(s) allowed Carl and Oldwage all over the crime scene. So as usual with the MSM, the one they cite as “no good in many ways” may actauilly have said and done things that have forced the revelation of items removed from the crime scene. He may be a hero in some ways.

My main point here I raise is the possility that .38 ammo was there because it might have accompanied a .38 revolver. And the latter--if it was in OP’s home--has long ago been dispatched to a Black Hole. [Again speculation and logic, no proof of course. Damn Black Holes.]

Hello Shane, your .38 ammo and revolver theory is gripping. You are now venturing deeper down the rabbit hole, and I'm sure you will not be satisfied until you have reached the bottom. I'm really enjoying your contributions - keep up the good work.

 

[Cape Town Crim.]

But isn't Labuschagne dubious?

I don't know if you saw my psots from a previous thread, and/or you already know these things better tyhan I could?

Labuschagne is the one who told OP at the crime scene that everyting was going to be Ok, and that he's a friend of a family member. I deduced that most lkely that was Aunt Micki P. who was SAPS 1st profiler of killers.

I am weary of Brig Gen Dr. Labuschagne testifying for Pros. I thought he also was a possible witnes for DT?

Can a person be both?

Labuschagne knows Oscar's aunt very well. Micki ran the Investigative Psychology unit for 5 years. (Labuschagne is now the head of that unit)

However, I do believe in Labuschagne's qualifications, as well as his integrity.
I would not be surprised if it was Oscar's aunt who dispatched him to the scene in the first place, as I can't see the 'local' chaps calling for him.

I have said from day 1 that most of the police arrived at the scene expecting to find a so-called 'legal kill' - i.e. Reeva had wanted to surprise Oscar for Valentine's day and snuck into the house at 3am. Oscar got a fright - then shot. That was what most of them were expecting.

I believe it would have been no different for Labuschagne. Oscar's aunt sent him to look out for her nephew's interests - but (and I hope I'm not wrong here........simply because I do respect the man) but I think that is where it ended. He would have realised they were dealing with more than what initial information suggested pretty soon afterwards. I hope I am correct.

I think most of the police on the scene changed their attitudes changed en masse the longer they were at the scene.

This is why the police stuffed up initially. Botha and co went in believing Oscar's :"I thought she was an intruder". They didn't doubt him until they wandered upstairs without wearing booties and saw what Botha described as a 'domestic violence' scene.
They erred in their approach yes, remembering that Oscar (at that stage) had MANY FRIENDS in very high places (government) which could have influenced how the police (all of them) dealt with him.

 

[Cape Town Crim.]

I admire your diligence in this area. We need 'experts' in all aspects of the case.
I am fuming about the phone and again, amazed that so far it has been brushed aside.
I'd like to know what cape thinks in detail to your theory, especially the phone.

I believe all information on that phone was likely deleted/completely and permanently removed. (they had 2 weeks to do that - and there are many hackers in Jhb, more than equipped to do just that) The state's witness said something to this effect as well. He also mentioned that they discovered the existence of this phone quite by accident. (Cellular phone records from TWO numbers)

The fact that getting that phone off the scene was so important tells an unpleasant story.
I can't see the police, even one of the juniors, giving anyone permission to remove that phone from the scene: Unless on order. The only alternative to the police 'allowing' someone to remove the phone 'legally', is the alternative I believe to be true. It was taken to protect Oscar.

I believe that Gerrie Nel will be bringing all of these loose threads together either in cross examination of upcoming defense witnesses, or if the opportunity presents when the state reopen their case, or MOST DEF in closing arguments. Closing argument will be the first time the state's case is laid out in it's entirety. A to Z.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

Shrien is apparently a huge 'hit' (apologies for the inference) at Valkenberg.

He is charming the socks off nurses, cleaning staff, medical practitioners and the sort. He apparently had an 'episode' when his bed squeaked during the cleaning of his 'room'.

He freaked out (as per Post Traumatic stress symptoms 101......) and was carted off for treatment only to return much later.

:banghead:

Lets hope he receives all the treatment he requires at a speedier pace than has been the case in the UK . He was allowed to have his own camper van in the grounds of the UK facility which shocked me . What if all patients were to request the same . Seemed to be special treatment IMO