Trial Thread, May 1, 2012 Defense begins it case in chief

[Kamille]

Thats what I think. His closing arguments have to do with all the weird questions he has asked witnesses and it will all come together. I dont think he is stupid at all just surprised really that there was one witness.

There are no witnesses that can back up whatever he's going to say in his closing arguments IMO.

There are none because it will not be the truth. It will likely be some spun story of MR's "version of events".

MOO

 

[snoofer]

I agree this is what they are trying to prove. I however find it a redundant point as he would not have witnessed her enter the school as he was hidding out in a parking lot.
If he had been waiting outside the doors and saw her enter then I would perhaps buy the babysitting story.
This witness did nothing to help his case IMO.
I also still do not beleive TLM entered the school, far too risky IMO.
(Otto I just piggy backed off your post to say what I felt about the testimonry and what they want us to believe

maybe TLM had to use the bathroom so used it at the school; then continued on looking for the perfect kid. MOO

 

[Jezbel]

Maybe that's what MR was writing the whole time, his own version of the closing argument for Derstine LOL.

 

[Sillybilly]

Canada is much like the Italian system - hurry and wait while we do whatever. In the US -- defense would close tomorrow, if there was time the State would follow, if not, then Thursday.

They just had 4 days off, including 2 working days. Both sides should have closings prepared and ready to present. The Crown may need to tweak a bit to accommodate today's witness, but that's it. Now.... we have to wait until the end of the week and move into next week before the jury will begin to deliberate. I'm mind-boggled at the extensive delays. Just seems to me it costs lots of time and money.

Oh well..... we will wait (but not patiently) LOL!

Salem

Hey, even lawyers are entitled to weekends off Ye olde "not only must justice be done, but it must be seen to be done" ... Although to us it is about justice for Tori, it is MTR's trial and, while we may not like it much, justice is for him as well. He has a right that it not be rushed just for expediency of the court and costs to the taxpayer.

We've come this far, what's a few extra hours of prep? As for extra costs, it should still boil down to billable hours, actual court time involved, and the pittance the jurors receive. The lawyers may have a bit of extra time logged in revamping closing arguments in relation to today's witness, but not sure the total would amount to much in the scheme of things.

JMO

 

[snoofer]

I agree this is what they are trying to prove. I however find it a redundant point as he would not have witnessed her enter the school as he was hidding out in a parking lot.
If he had been waiting outside the doors and saw her enter then I would perhaps buy the babysitting story.
This witness did nothing to help his case IMO.
I also still do not beleive TLM entered the school, far too risky IMO.
(Otto I just piggy backed off your post to say what I felt about the testimonry and what they want us to believe

maybe TLM had to use the bathroom so used it at the school; then continued on looking for the perfect kid. MOO

I mean look at MTR; he went to Genest!! That was gutsy considering what he knew! JMO

 

[pattywack]

If TLM was more involved in the actually kidnapping then first thought, it doesn't make the murder any less his fault. Remember the opening when the Crown stated about them acting together? He was still there with TLM and did nothing. Still a murder charge, still life in prision IMO.

I don't really understand ...How can she be MORE involved? Whether she went into the school or not is really immaterial. They both kidnapped her,... from where ever.MMO.

 

[Ardy]

Where did you read that? That would suggest that prisons are full of innocent, poor victims of the justice system - simply not true.

There is plea bargaining, but that usualy happens because the evidence is overwhelming and the accused is hoping for a reduced sentence. Plea bargaining is also used when there are two suspects and one is testifying against the other.

I'd sure like to see a link to statements from the Supreme Court that "too many innocent people ... couldn't afford the legal fees" ... legal aid is in place for anyone that cannot afford legal fees.

Most convictions don't result in incarceration.

In Canada, our sentencing is based on the premise that incarceration is a last resort punishment and other forms of punishment are to be considered first.

At their first appearance in court, the Crown will submit to the accused a form which outlines the penalty they are seeking. Usually, they will include an offer to plea bargain early.

Legal aid must be applied for and the Crown must be seeking incarceration. The application also requires bank statements and lists of assets. Only low income people with no assets, who are facing incarceration qualify for legal aid.

Canadians have a right to legal representation, but the government doesn't provide it for free to everyone. If a person has assets or sufficient income, they are expected to pay their own legal fees.

Faced with the prospect of probation or a lawyer bill in the tens of thousands of dollars...........a lot of people just plead guilty.

Here is a link to the rate of conviction in Ontario in 2002.

http://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/pi/icg-gci/pb6-rpc6.html

Department of Justice of Canada, Research and Statistics Division, JustStats (No.2002-01), October 2002.

[30]The 91.3% figure includes all charges that are resolved by guilty pleas or withdrawn by the prosecutor. (See The Commission on Proceedings Involving Guy Paul Morin, Testimony of Peter Griffiths relating to Exhibit 292, Statistical Monitoring Report of Ontario Court, Provincial Division,12 December 1997, available on Quick Law in database "CRCM".) Of the 91.3% of cases, 75.5% were resolved before trial, while the other 15.8% remained unresolved until the day set for trial. (See The Investment Strategy Report, Ontario Ministry of the Attorney General, Third Quarter of 1998, referred to in the Report of the Criminal Justice Review Committee, February 1999, Chapter 6, Part 4, available on Quick Law in database "CRCM".)


As to a link to the Supreme Court discussion on the effect of plea bargaining........I will have a look for it when I have time.

JMO.........

 

[Oldsoul2]

Does anyone know if MR's lawyer is provided by legal aid or is someone paying him for MR

 

[littlebirdie]

I've actually had a problem with the school's responsibility in this from the start. I've spent years picking up children from school and I have seen it all. There are supposed to be teachers on the grounds when children are let out of school, but I've seen plenty of days when there were none. Teachers are often busy packing up for the day or preparing for a meeting ... they are not always where they are supposed to be - especially the tenured ones.

I recall one day where someone else's child was injured, crying and everyone ignoring him. There were no teachers outside at dismissal time and parents were focused on their own children. The child was bleeding so I took him to the washroom, cleaned him up, cheered him up and then took him back out of the school. No one intervened or did anything. I kept thinking that someone was going to ask me what I was doing, but no one did.

Another time my nephew thought that recess was lunch and accidentally he went home. No one noticed that he was missing until noon ... apparently no one was supervising the playground at recess so no one saw him leave.

The school I'm referring to is a good school in a good area, but teachers were sloppy ... when I heard about Victoria's disappearance, my first thought was that one of the teachers was not doing his/her job.

That said, I'm not convinced that the witness really saw the white coat person enter the school or that it was TLM.

Sections respectfully bolded by me. Upon reading this, your own experiences just gave me the chills. My children are grown adults now but the mere idea of any school not being a safe haven is distressing. I am in no way judging teachers as solely responsible for the school atmosphere as I have not worked in their shoes. My children rode the school bus for most of their school years and had family always pick them up during other periods. As a child many ions ago, I walked home from school by myself in a small town and my family always felt that I was completely safe. Times have changed. It's sad.

I am hoping that along with Tori's Law becoming a reality, further protocol is put in place to increase the awareness and safety of all children in as many ways as possible going into the future. MOO

 

[pattywack]

An attempt to show since TLM was brazen enough to enter the school MTR had no other reason to believe this was just a babysitting stint.

MTR wasn't there. How would he know whether she entered the school or not? Was it visible from the nursing home parking lot?

 

[Macright]

There are no witnesses that can back up whatever he's going to say in his closing arguments IMO.

There are none because it will not be the truth. It will likely be some spun story of MR's "version of events".

MOO

so actually it all comes down to "she said, he said"...that is scary because look at the character of "she said"....JMO wow the courts and the crown that my taxes help support only have the word of a self confessed murderer to go on...JMO

 

[Oldsoul2]

so actually it all comes down to "she said, he said"...that is scary because look at the character of "she said"....JMO wow the courts and the crown that my taxes help support only have the word of a self confessed murderer to go on...JMO

Irrelevant, it's hearsay unless the defense would have liked to prove what they presented with hard evidence, which they didn't which the Crown did.

 

[snoofer]

Canada is much like the Italian system - hurry and wait while we do whatever. In the US -- defense would close tomorrow, if there was time the State would follow, if not, then Thursday.

They just had 4 days off, including 2 working days. Both sides should have closings prepared and ready to present. The Crown may need to tweak a bit to accommodate today's witness, but that's it. Now.... we have to wait until the end of the week and move into next week before the jury will begin to deliberate. I'm mind-boggled at the extensive delays. Just seems to me it costs lots of time and money.

Oh well..... we will wait (but not patiently) LOL!

Salem

no wonder it takes so long to get to trial with backlog. MOO

 

[Ardy]

I just dont think there was any evidence to back MTR. Where is the evidence of a drug debt? If that is why TLM took TS then where is his evidence? Sorry just not buying it.

I am telling you his closing arguments are going to be TLM needed to kill someone as initiation in to the EOA gang and he was afraid to go to the police... JMO

Derstine won't be trying to prove his theory, but putting holes into the Crown accusations by way of another possible scenario.

I agree that Derstine made his inroads during the cross examinations.

He destroyed TLM's credibility with the revelations of the letters, music, and statements to her godmother. The jury now has to decide to believe all or any of TLM's testimony.

He forced the pathologist and forensics expert to admit there was no scientific proof of a sexual assault.

In addition to those cross examinations, Derstine presented a witness that raised questions with TLM's statements on how she abducted VS, and that there was no evidence of nefarious content on MR's Blackberry.

The Crown and defense now have the job of tying it up all for the jury to ponder during deliberations.

We will see how that goes.

JMO...............

 

[Kamille]

so actually it all comes down to "she said, he said"...that is scary because look at the character of "she said"....JMO wow the courts and the crown that my taxes help support only have the word of a self confessed murderer to go on...JMO

No...TLM told her version and the Crown backed it up with evidence. MR chose not to tell his version. But his lawyer will try...with nothing to back it up.

MOO

 

[Kamille]

Derstine won't be trying to prove his theory, but putting holes into the Crown accusations by way of another possible scenario.

I agree that Derstine made his inroads during the cross examinations.

He destroyed TLM's credibility with the revelations of the letters, music, and statements to her godmother. The jury now has to decide to believe all or any of TLM's testimony.

He forced the pathologist and forensics expert to admit there was no scientific proof of a sexual assault.

In addition to those cross examinations, Derstine presented a witness that raised questions with TLM's statements on how she abducted VS, and that there was no evidence of nefarious content on MR's Blackberry.

The Crown and defense now have the job of tying it up all for the jury to ponder during deliberations.

We will see how that goes.

JMO...............

Speaking of those statements...where is the proof of context? Just hearsay without it.

MOO

 

[Kamille]

MTR wasn't there. How would he know whether she entered the school or not? Was it visible from the nursing home parking lot?

He was in the gas station at the time.

ETA: Not getting any gas that I'm aware of.

MOO

 

[matou]

Sorry, I haven't read through everything yet. Did either side bring up a police report from the witness' statement to police during today's testimony? Did she mention to police at that time that she saw the white-coat woman enter the school?

 

[Flowercb]

ITA! I personally believed he plead not guilty in hopes he'd be released at some point per-trial. He had no defense to the crimes he's accused of committing! For a split second this morning, I actually thought Grandmom was going to testify she went along for the ride to MT Forest with MR & TLM & Tori and that she followed MR on his "walk" while TLM murdered little Tori. I was not expecting nothing from Derstine!

LOL I nearly spit my drink out at the computer monitor.

 

[Ardy]

Speaking of those statements...where is the proof of context? Just hearsay without it.

MOO

TLM admitted to the statements during cross examination.

JMO........