Trooper: Fire in rural Pa. farmhouse kills 7 kids

[Kimster]

Watch your posts in here please. This is a victim friendly forum. If you aren't sure what I mean, follow the link in my siggy line that will explain.

:tyou:

ETA: Kat and I posted at the same time. :highfive:

 

[BleuK]

Well said belimom, and thanks for sharing your story.

It sounds like these parents worked pretty hard and I'd guess their routine was such that the father went off to work at this time (and sounds like he got a little more sleep while filling the milk truck) and that the mother went out to milk the cows at a time when the kids were in bed and sleeping. While not an optimum situation, it sounds like they were doing what they thought worked best to make a living.

I can't imagine how horrifying this was for all of them, very sad.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[blue_the_puppy]

most suspicious of all is that this family DID NOT plan on having so many children, yet the mother is pregnant with another one. HMMM

"Sauder said his daughter and son-in-law hadn't planned on such a large family, but welcomed the children."

i interpreted this to mean that perhaps they didn't *originally* plan on having a large family, but have since embraced the idea. JMO. tragic beyond words.

 

[Murdock]

most suspicious of all is that this family DID NOT plan on having so many children, yet the mother is pregnant with another one. HMMM

"Sauder said his daughter and son-in-law hadn't planned on such a large family, but welcomed the children."

http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2011/03/pennsylvaia_farmhouse_fire_kil.html

if these children were unplanned and unexpected, why would the mother be pregnant again why not use birth control?
this is exactly why people should use birth control, they can't handle taking care of all those children.

i am a firm believer that you do not put a child 11 years old or not in charge of mothering your own children, that 11 year old will be forced to not have a childhood since she's too busy playing mom.
this isn't the 1800s anymore. that's child neglect.

there is no excuse for those babies to be left alone in that house.

if it was normal for the dad to take a nap while he waited for his milk truck to load only a mile down the road, then he should have brought a baby to watch, or brought a bike to ride back to the house to watch the babies there until the milk truck was done.

the parents should have worked something out to take "shifts" so the babies weren't left home alone in that house.

in a patriarchal society of mennonites where boys would be coveted, this family had almost all girls. one boy. should makes you wonder.

BBM

What I think you're suggesting doesn't make sense as the surviving child was a girl.

 

[passionflower]

The family are menenites (on news here) a bit like the Amish people.
Their lives are not like ours.
They have big families, work hard and the older children care for the younger.
They do have electric and drive but have allot of Amish ideas of living.

 

[kgeaux]

On Fox news they asked LE how did the 3 year old make it out and not the other children? LE states they are still investigating.

That was a good question b/c the 2 year old was with the 3 year old watching TV. I feel the 2 year old would have followed her sister outside. Right??

I also question why did the mom have to go up to his truck and bang on the truck windows? Wasn't she screaming???

I don't know why the 2 year old did not run out with her sibling. I don't find it suspicious, however. I know that many children hide when there is a fire, and I am amazed that the 3 year old had the presence of mind and maturity to run to mother.

I imagine there are pumps pumping, cows lowing and engines running---lots of back ground noise. It doesn't shock me that Mom had to bang on the windows to get Dad's attention.

imho, this could not have happened to anyone. had both parents used shifts to take care of their children (2 of which were BABIES) then we wouldn't have this senseless tragedy.

instead of having an 11 year old girl play mother (when she should be actually enjoying her own childhood), obviously if the 11 year old was supposed to be watching the babies, she wasn't. the only one who smelled smoke was a smart little 3 year old. he's the only one who went to alert the mother.

why on god's green earth did any of the older children (supposedly watching the babies as blonde girl stated) smell any smoke?

why wasn't the 11 year old also watching the 2 year old who was watching tv with the 3 year old who is the only one who smelled smoke?

i hope le gets a specialist in there to talk to that little 3 year old boy.

something doesn't sit right with this whole situation.

who was watching the baby, the older child? why didn't she smell smoke, or you would think the 3 year old would also alert other siblings screaming in a panic.

I think you are sincere in how you feel, but I wonder how much you know about the Mennonite community. Not every family in USA lives in the city, not every mom has the luxury of having indoor chores only, and sometimes "shifts" don't fit. Cows need to be milked often. (I can attest to that, because my grandparents had a large farm with milk cows when I was young.)

Forgive me if I am misunderstanding your posts, but are insinuating that that the parents planned or hoped something tragic like this would happen?
Have you actually read all of the articles that have been posted?

One thanks was not enough. Thank you.

 

[chemcopout]

There are often medical or religious reasons why birth control is not an option. I did not expect to be pregnant with my fifth child at 25...sometimes it just happens. If you actually READ the news articles, ALL of the deceased children were found in their beds, not crowded around a television, as was originally depicted. I don't wonder much about the sex of the children, as that's kinda hard to control...what, should they have stoned to death the girls? Not even understanding that part of the statement. The articles state that it was routine for the father to nap in his truck at the farm a mile away while the milk was being loaded, which took about an hour. Once again, explainable by reading.

let me explain for you, as you have twisted my words. the 3 year old and 2/1 year old miranda were watching tv. the articles didn't state until what the other children were doing until after i posted my comment.

as for mennonite society, google it, it's a patriarchal society where boys are considered more "dominant" that girls, the men are more than women. it's sexist a society. here's a link to an article that might help explain the sexism that goes on in mennonite culture and an attempt to undo it:

http://www.themennonite.org/issues/12-15/articles/CPT_trainings_attempt_to_undo_sexism

once again, i stress that there was a 7 month old baby alone in the house, and now that you mention the other older children were sleeping, who was supervising the 7 month old and 1 year old babies?

no one was watching them. the 1 year old (2 yrs depending on where you read) was being supervised by the tv along with the 3 year old.

so not one person was watching those babies.

the mother should have waited until the father got home and then went to milk the cows. it's a crime to leave children neglected and unattended, especially being such young babies, this is exactly why people don't do that. these things happen.

a family member stated the children were "unplanned yet welcomed into the family".
if you already have 7 children and you don't have adequate help to watch those babies, why have sex and have more? that makes no sense. the mother is pregnant. i don't care about religion and birth control. don't have sex then if you can't give all your children the attention they need.

this is why the police are investigating the matter as well. no one knows exactly how long these babies were left alone in that house while the mother was outside milking cows.

i never got the impression all the children were crowded around the television, as the articles in the beginning only mentioned 2 of the kids were.

this is a tragedy that could have been prevented, those babies didn't need to die, had the parents actually been watching them.
shoulda coulda woulda, my prayers for the poor children who perished.

 

[chemcopout]

I don't know why the 2 year old did not run out with her sibling. I don't find it suspicious, however. I know that many children hide when there is a fire, and I am amazed that the 3 year old had the presence of mind and maturity to run to mother.

I imagine there are pumps pumping, cows lowing and engines running---lots of back ground noise. It doesn't shock me that Mom had to bang on the windows to get Dad's attention.



I think you are sincere in how you feel, but I wonder how much you know about the Mennonite community. Not every family in USA lives in the city, not every mom has the luxury of having indoor chores only, and sometimes "shifts" don't fit. Cows need to be milked often. (I can attest to that, because my grandparents had a large farm with milk cows when I was young.)




One thanks was not enough. Thank you.

i understand about the cows, and i wouldn't want the cows to hurt either since they had too much milk in them. i just believe that the parents should have managed their time better so that they could have at least one of them watching the babies.

 

[not_my_kids]

let me explain for you, as you have twisted my words. the 3 year old and 2/1 year old miranda were watching tv. the articles didn't state until what the other children were doing until after i posted my comment.

as for mennonite society, google it, it's a patriarchal society where boys are considered more "dominant" that girls, the men are more than women. it's sexist a society. here's a link to an article that might help explain the sexism that goes on in mennonite culture and an attempt to undo it:

http://www.themennonite.org/issues/12-15/articles/CPT_trainings_attempt_to_undo_sexism

once again, i stress that there was a 7 month old baby alone in the house, and now that you mention the other older children were sleeping, who was supervising the 7 month old and 1 year old babies?

no one was watching them. the 1 year old (2 yrs depending on where you read) was being supervised by the tv along with the 3 year old.

so not one person was watching those babies.

the mother should have waited until the father got home and then went to milk the cows. it's a crime to leave children neglected and unattended, especially being such young babies, this is exactly why people don't do that. these things happen.

a family member stated the children were "unplanned yet welcomed into the family".
if you already have 7 children and you don't have adequate help to watch those babies, why have sex and have more? that makes no sense. the mother is pregnant. i don't care about religion and birth control. don't have sex then if you can't give all your children the attention they need.

this is why the police are investigating the matter as well. no one knows exactly how long these babies were left alone in that house while the mother was outside milking cows.

i never got the impression all the children were crowded around the television, as the articles in the beginning only mentioned 2 of the kids were.

this is a tragedy that could have been prevented, those babies didn't need to die, had the parents actually been watching them.
shoulda coulda woulda, my prayers for the poor children who perished.

The article explaining where the children were found was posted a full page before your comments. Once again, who was watching babies? No one. Bcause they were SLEEPING. In their beds.


It is also a crime to let animals suffer. And unmilked cows suffer in pain.

I was suspicious at first myself, but when you consider that there is likely little that the mother could have done even if she was in the house...it is simply a tragedy. That's all. There are some deaths that do not involve a perp.

If it was a propane heater or propane fire in any way, there is little chance that the mother could have reached her children anyway. Would it be a crime if she had been in the house asleep, while the children were asleep and only managed to save the child that alerted her?
She was on the property, likely feeling that she was close enough to be grabbed quickly if there was an emergency. How many times have one of use stepped out to our garage, to our deck, to our backyard while our children are sleeping, presumably safely asleep in their beds?

. Some people do not live by fully modern standards. And you know what? That is a right that we enjoy in this country. There are other countries where you aren't allowed more children than you can carry...this is not one of them.

ETA: It does not matter whether they live in a patriarchal belief system or not. The child that survived was a girl. And there is no proof that they intentionally tried to harm their son or daughters, it's a moot point. Completely moot.

 

[Disguiseduser0308]

Truly heartbreaking. We suffered a few fires as children in the apartment building we lived in with our parents. It truly is chaotic and disorienting. Prayers to this family whose pain I can't begin to fathom. Heck, this could happen when I'm outside on my front porch having a cigarette to protect my kids from second hand smoke.

With that being said, I wanted to chime in just a little on this idea of putting children to work (be it sitting with siblings or what have you). We seem to have a lot of troubled youth these days, I certainly won't fault this family who likely instilled hard working values in their children. Children should work, be it cleaning their rooms, doing chores, even helping with their siblings.

Perhaps if more parents gave their children responsibilities, we'd have a few less troubled children out there. Work teaches responsibility. We as parents need to teach our children these things. IMO, it's not abuse, but realization that we all have responsibilities. Better to start early rather than expecting to send them out into the world with no life skills whatsoever.

I really do feel for this family. I just cannot imagine what they're going through.

 

[chemcopout]

[/B]

BBM

What I think you're suggesting doesn't make sense as the surviving child was a girl.

perhaps it was random and none were supposed to survive?
granted, it's a strange theory and i apologize for it, yet i possibly read the unplanned large family comment made by the father in law the wrong way.

i just think there are a lot of elements that night that don't add up to me.

 

[chemcopout]

The article explaining where the children were found was posted a full page before your comments. Once again, who was watching babies? No one. Bcause they were SLEEPING. In their beds.


It is also a crime to let animals suffer. And unmilked cows suffer in pain.

I was suspicious at first myself, but when you consider that there is likely little that the mother could have done even if she was in the house...it is simply a tragedy. That's all. There are some deaths that do not involve a perp.

If it was a propane heater or propane fire in any way, there is little chance that the mother could have reached her children anyway. Would it be a crime if she had been in the house asleep, while the children were asleep and only managed to save the child that alerted her?
She was on the property, likely feeling that she was close enough to be grabbed quickly if there was an emergency. How many times have one of use stepped out to our garage, to our deck, to our backyard while our children are sleeping, presumably safely asleep in their beds?

. Some people do not live by fully modern standards. And you know what? That is a right that we enjoy in this country. There are other countries where you aren't allowed more children than you can carry...this is not one of them.

ETA: It does not matter whether they live in a patriarchal belief system or not. The child that survived was a girl. And there is no proof that they intentionally tried to harm their son or daughters, it's a moot point. Completely moot.

if you read my prior post, i explained that i understood the cows had to be milked as i wouldn't want them to be in pain from too much milk.

if the babies were sleeping, they still need to be watched. sleeping babies awaken and bad things could and in this case, had happened.

the police are investigating the matter as they don't know how long or how many times the children were left alone in the house for.

my wife and i live an alternative lifestyle, we are gay. so don't tell me that i don't respect alternative lifestyles or religions.

if someone is an american citizen and live here in america, everyone needs to abide by the rules, which include not neglecting children or leaving little babies home unattended for long periods of time.

since it was such a tragedy the police may not press charges.

the parents should have arranged shifts so that at least one of them was awake with the babies at all times.
(obviously bathroom breaks are allowed)

if the mother had been asleep in the house, then no i wouldn't be suspicious.

instead she was outside in the barn milking the cows. there was a 7 month old baby and 1 year old baby alone in that house. it doesn't matter if they were sleeping or not.

this is the end of this argument for me. young babies were left in a house unattended when this all could have been avoided if the father stayed home with them while the mother milked the cows, then went to pick up the milk. or vice versa.

 

[chemcopout]

bbm

Chemcopout, have you ever been in a fire? I have. It is one of the most awful experiences you could imagine.

All of sudden, my apartment was in flames. Was it supposed to be? Nope. The non-flammable shower curtain was as flammable as could be - and waving in the air like a flag of flames. As I tried to put it out, flames literally JUMPED to the ceiling and walls... Before I knew it - in probably a minute or less - black smoke filled the entire apartment, my lungs locked up, and ran out onto the balcony naked. I grabbed my breath and then realized I might be stuck on the balcony b/c the flames were spreading so fast. I ran in, blindly grabbed some dirty clothes on the floor (thankfully I grabbed an oversized t-shirt), and ran around looking for my cat. I could not see a thing and was running around blindly in the smoke. When my lungs locked up again, I barely dove out the door into the stairwell and crawled, coughing, to the door across the way - still naked and clutching the oversized shirt in my hand. Thankfully the lady across the hall was home and helped me get my shirt on and called 911. She told me to wait inside her apartment but I ran back in AGAIN to find my cat. By then some neighbors had arrived and literally yanked me back out. The lady across the hall handed me some pants way too big for me that I pulled on.

It was a blur. I totally panicked and forgot to "get low". I didn't think to call 911. I forgot I was even on the phone with my boyfriend (now my husband) who panicked 500 miles away listening to all this take place.

If the fire spread as quickly as it looked in the pictures of the house, then I bet the older kids - and the others - may have been overtaken by smoke and/or flames. In a heartbeat it can happen. If the 2- and 3-yr-old were watching TV, then the 2-yr-old probably didn't think to run out the door like the 3-yr-old.

There was a fire in our neighborhood years ago. The parents and baby got out, but they couldn't get to the 4-yr-old's bedroom. Firefighters had to use a ladder to get to his window. They found him dead from smoke inhalation just under his window... It was a terrible time, yet those parents could not breathe and ran the baby outside and tried to catch their breath like I did, but could not get back to their other child.

Until you've been in a fire and know how traumatic it is, it's hard to judge why someone couldn't get out or didn't do such-and-such.

JMHO.

(ETA: I also just remembered that when I was in college, a girl I knew died over Christmas while visiting her grandparents. Her mother, herself, and both grandparents all perished in a fire. They died of smoke inhalation. No one made it out.)

yes, actually i have. i woke up to my mother saying there was smoke in the house and to go outside. i was freaking out hysterical, running around looking for grandma, my wife, the cat, the dog. i made sure everyone and the pets were outside and i was still in the house since the cat was hiding upstairs.
we were very lucky it was a garbage fire in the hallway.
the firemen were the ones to kick me out of the house and looked at me like i was nuts, i was just trying to explain that the cat is upstairs hiding and scared and she can't be let out. they told me that it's a lot of smoke for a garbage fire. all the while my heart is pounding i was so scared.

everything turned out okay thank god.

 

[JBean]

**This post is landing randomly on the thread, not necessarily relative to any single post around it.**

I am not going to spend a lot of time editing posts, you guys don't like it and I don't like to do it.
But, please do not attack other members in a personal way;even if someone attacks you in a personal way. If that happens, respond to the post without acknowledging their attack and report it or just ignore it and report it.
We are not going to all agree but we can debate it without going after each other personally. attack the post if you like but not the poster.

The parents may bear some responsibility, but saying so does not constitute bashing them. Discussing the "what if" and" if only they had" is fine.

Where we draw the line here is calling the parents names or saying it was intentional or insinuating things that we have no idea if they are true or not. These people have suffered a loss so we have to be sympathetic to that.

Let's just discuss this sensibly.It was a terrible tragedy. Could it have been avoided? Was it just one of those things that could not have been avoided and turned into a perfect storm? was this an accident waiting to happen?

Thanks everyone for the lively discussion.

 

[belimom]

Bless this family... they have a long road ahead of them...

Funeral set for 7 children killed in Pennsylvania farmhouse fire

........

"Everybody I've talked to here ... has felt a lot of sympathy toward these people. It's a real shame the way things like that happen," he said.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/03/15/pennsylvania.fire.funerals/index.html?hpt=T2

 

[Trident]

I saw the house on GMA, in living color, and it was almost all blackened by the fire. Absolutely horrible and heartbreaking.

 

[oh_gal]

if you read my prior post, i explained that i understood the cows had to be milked as i wouldn't want them to be in pain from too much milk.

if the babies were sleeping, they still need to be watched. sleeping babies awaken and bad things could and in this case, had happened.

the police are investigating the matter as they don't know how long or how many times the children were left alone in the house for.

my wife and i live an alternative lifestyle, we are gay. so don't tell me that i don't respect alternative lifestyles or religions.

if someone is an american citizen and live here in america, everyone needs to abide by the rules, which include not neglecting children or leaving little babies home unattended for long periods of time.
since it was such a tragedy the police may not press charges.

the parents should have arranged shifts so that at least one of them was awake with the babies at all times.
(obviously bathroom breaks are allowed)

if the mother had been asleep in the house, then no i wouldn't be suspicious.

instead she was outside in the barn milking the cows. there was a 7 month old baby and 1 year old baby alone in that house. it doesn't matter if they were sleeping or not.

this is the end of this argument for me. young babies were left in a house unattended when this all could have been avoided if the father stayed home with them while the mother milked the cows, then went to pick up the milk. or vice versa.

(above bbm)
I respectfully beg to differ on a few of your points. Your analysis of the Mennonite & Amish cultures was not what I would really call "respectful" -- I live near the 4th largest Amish settlement in the world, and I've gone to school with both Amish and Mennonite children. As an adult, I've had many, many interactions with them. What you deem as sexist, they see as adhearing to male/female roles in society. It baffles me that some would take exception to this -- men and women ARE created differently, on many levels. But the women are not oppressed (regardless of what you think you've read, or interpreted in made-for-tv movies or documentaries). In an Amish or Mennonite family, women have certain roles, men have certain roles, no one is treated as a "lesser" individual based on their gender. They don't take issue with this, they embrace it. Amish and Mennonite women run their own businesses, they go out and socialize, they have their own money, they make their own purchases, they drive their own buggies, they make their own decisions, and, as should be true in ANY committed relationship, big decisions are shared -- now, that's not to say that one party does not defer to the other party -- really, at some point, in any relationship (even two women, or two men) one person has to defer to the other.

I realize your comments come more from a lack of knowledge than anything else, so I hope you'll take my remarks in the best way, since that is how they were meant.

 

[lovelabs]

I just want to throw this out there.....

I pass this little community every weekend as I head to my camp which is just over the next mountain. Blain is a little community built mostly of Amish, Menonite and the Brethern faiths. Very much all time farmers. Everything the mom and dad is NOT out of the ordinary of how these people live and farm.

The mother couldn't get into the house, ran across the street to the first neighbor, couldn't get an answer at the door, ran to the next neighbor to have them call 911, the father has a normal 'milk truck' routine and this is a normal milk truck routine for just about all the drivers in that area. The neighbors houses in those areas are not right next door, they are usually a ways down the road. We are talking lots and lots of acres of farmland between farms.

I don't have all the answers as to the whys.... whys.... whys... but a little understanding on how these mountain farming communities operate may take some of the sting out of suspicions.

I cry every time I see the pictures or talk to the locals in the area. It is just so heartbreaking.

I just so glad that the baptist church that disrupted and disrespected that Marine at his funeral (the one the supreme court just said they had freedom of speech) isn't going to protest at this funeral. Yes that was also a big issue around here too. God was punishing them for what I have no idea....

God Bless those people... all people

 

[lillygator]

has there been any more info on the investigation?
Why was teh dad asleep 1 mile from the house?

 

[LNL]

has there been any more info on the investigation?
Why was teh dad asleep 1 mile from the house?

I have not heard anything more on the investigation.

The father was at work, on his milk route. He was waiting in the truck at one of the farms on his route. The milk was being loaded onto the truck. The farmer at that farm said that it was normal for Mr. Clouse to catch a nap while he waited for the milk to load, which normally took an hour at this particular farm.

All of this is mentioned in the pennlive.com articles and others linked in previous posts.