Trooper: Fire in rural Pa. farmhouse kills 7 kids

[raeann]

For a bit further explanation to the above, the milk at each farm is pumped from the actual milking apparatus through tubes/pipes to a holding tank that cools and stores the milk until a truck comes to load it out. The milk is then pumped from the tank into the transport truck which does take a certain amount of time based on the size of the storage tank. It would be normal to take a rest while it pumped as a route to pick up milk from a number of farms could literally take ALL night long. This man probably ran the same route literally seven nights a week and then probably still worked on his own farm during the days. It would not be unusual for sleeping children to be left in the house while the mother worked in the barn. It was probably only yards from the house and while not ideal for her to be out there, these families don't have the financial luxury of being able to pay for hired help to either do the farm work OR come in at night to watch the children. It is really no different than a suburban mom going outside to work in the garden or sit by the pool while the baby naps.....not the perfect choice, but one that is made by many thousands of moms with no tragic results on a daily basis.

jmo

 

[chemcopout]

(above bbm)
I respectfully beg to differ on a few of your points. Your analysis of the Mennonite & Amish cultures was not what I would really call "respectful" -- I live near the 4th largest Amish settlement in the world, and I've gone to school with both Amish and Mennonite children. As an adult, I've had many, many interactions with them. What you deem as sexist, they see as adhearing to male/female roles in society. It baffles me that some would take exception to this -- men and women ARE created differently, on many levels. But the women are not oppressed (regardless of what you think you've read, or interpreted in made-for-tv movies or documentaries). In an Amish or Mennonite family, women have certain roles, men have certain roles, no one is treated as a "lesser" individual based on their gender. They don't take issue with this, they embrace it. Amish and Mennonite women run their own businesses, they go out and socialize, they have their own money, they make their own purchases, they drive their own buggies, they make their own decisions, and, as should be true in ANY committed relationship, big decisions are shared -- now, that's not to say that one party does not defer to the other party -- really, at some point, in any relationship (even two women, or two men) one person has to defer to the other.

I realize your comments come more from a lack of knowledge than anything else, so I hope you'll take my remarks in the best way, since that is how they were meant.

that's a matter of perspective we obviously disagree upon. while i'd rather not exist in any sexist lifestyles as you term it.

DELETED

all because i think outside of the box. i'm thinking like a cop.
was there smoke in the children's lungs? what was the primary cod of all of them?
a flash fire, which if this fire was what it was, is, is very fast.
why didn't the 3 year old scream and likely he did, how come no other children woke up?
sometimes when investigating things, there are questions that no one likes to ask, yet they have to be asked in order to make sure things were not foul.

DELETED

if this family lived in section 8 or a trailer park, would you think different of my questions? i would ask the same questions in any circumstance, any ethnic or cultural lifestyle as they should be asked.

 

[passionflower]

I just saw the funeral on local TV...............7 little white caskets, made it so real,
heartbreaking.........

 

[Reality Orlando]

if you read my prior post, i explained that i understood the cows had to be milked as i wouldn't want them to be in pain from too much milk.

if the babies were sleeping, they still need to be watched. sleeping babies awaken and bad things could and in this case, had happened.

the police are investigating the matter as they don't know how long or how many times the children were left alone in the house for.

my wife and i live an alternative lifestyle, we are gay. so don't tell me that i don't respect alternative lifestyles or religions.

if someone is an american citizen and live here in america, everyone needs to abide by the rules, which include not neglecting children or leaving little babies home unattended for long periods of time.

since it was such a tragedy the police may not press charges.

the parents should have arranged shifts so that at least one of them was awake with the babies at all times.
(obviously bathroom breaks are allowed)

if the mother had been asleep in the house, then no i wouldn't be suspicious.

instead she was outside in the barn milking the cows. there was a 7 month old baby and 1 year old baby alone in that house. it doesn't matter if they were sleeping or not.

this is the end of this argument for me. young babies were left in a house unattended when this all could have been avoided if the father stayed home with them while the mother milked the cows, then went to pick up the milk. or vice versa.

I think we have to look past what we know from our urban/suburban lifestyles. Farm life is very different. Barns are usually pretty close to the house. It's often the parents that get up before or work after the kids are in bed to do many of the farm chores like feeding the chickens, collecting eggs, milking the cows, mucking out stalls. It wasn't like the adults left the property. The kids were down for the night and there was an 11 year old girl in the house. Many 12 year olds babysit. Sounds to me like a very sad, tragic event.

 

[Reality Orlando]

i'm sorry... i must have missed the part where it said that a 7 month old baby was left alone in a house :waitasec:

these people obviously live a very different lifestyle than most people. the mom was raised mennonite and they lived in a mennonite/farming community. the children are taught at a young age and are very self sufficient and often help to care for their younger sibling.. your 11 year old may still need her rear end wiped, but most 11 year olds who grow up in these communities can already cook, clean and sew. my grandma was sewing her own clothing at 12...it's really not all that uncommon and really not something for other people to judge.

i have a 22 month old and a 4 year old who are left in their room every night at 10 watching tv. we're a family of night shift people, so our kids are up later and sleep in later until school starts.. farm work isn't like a regular 9-5... so their kids probably adapted to their schedule so their parents could work.

imo, this is a horrible tragedy that maybe could've been prevented if they had tested their smoke detectors a little better and maped out a fire escape. when was the last time you checked your smoke detectors ot had a fire drill? it could've happened to anyone... regardless of what mom and dad were doing.. they were working ffs... not out at a disco

Bravo...very well said.

 

[Reality Orlando]

WHY??!! would a mother leave an 7 month old baby ALONE in the house??

it's obvious the other children couldn't care for the baby, they're all young.
why was a 2 and 3 year old awake at 10pm at night watching tv? that's awfully young, my kids would have been in bed long before that time!

sounds like the tv was the babysitter.

what was the older children doing? it mentioned an 11 year old girl, did they have a cell phone? the fire must have escalated very very quickly if the mother couldn't have called 911 from the house. i take it no phone in the barn.

my butt would have been up in that house trying to get the other children out.

it's odd that you have children ages 11,9,6,4 (or 3),7, only 2 yrs, and a baby either 11 or 7 months old??? and the youngest ones are still up at 10pm watching tv, did the older children fall asleep?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41983011/ns/us_news-life/

the article above lists the baby as 7 months. either way if you have a baby in the house, why in heck would the mother be out in the barn at 10pm and leave the baby unsupervised???? not to mention the other children??


something stinks here, i'm sure its another senseless tragedy, however had at least one parent been in the house (they have a baby for god's sake!) this whole thing could have been prevented.

i understand they are hard working and all that, however if you have an 7 or 9 or 11 month old baby in the house alone with a bunch of other young children... we all know the dangers of leaving a baby alone for a second.

the parents should have split there chore times so that an adult would be in the house with the baby.

the woman attempted to get in the house, then ran to her neighbors, then goes and runs a mile down the road to rouse the dad who nodded out in his farm truck. by the time they get back the house is fully engulfed in flames. now that's one fast fire!

my prayers for those poor children for got killed in the fire.
this whole thing could have been prevented. what kind of parents leave a tiny baby alone in the house? did they expect the 11 year old to play "mother"? this just isn't right..

Me thinks you've never spent much time on a working farm.

 

[tiredblondy]

Me thinks you've never spent much time on a working farm.

I couldn't have said it better myself as I spent many hours on the farm and in the barn milking cows. After you take the electric milkers off you have to striip the cows by hand as in hand milking. If the milkers are going it's very hard to hear anything. FYI my Dad used to drive a milk truck. He left at 3am in the morning and did not get back till 3 or 4 pm. He had to wait on the farmers to load the milk then take it to the plant. Bless his heart he was so tired then.
I understand exactly what this family was going through before the fire.
This was a horrible accident, that's all. The children were obiviously healthy and happy from their picture. I'm sure the parents will live with tremendous guilt the rest of their life.
They need our prayers and have mine.

 

[oh_gal]

that's a matter of perspective we obviously disagree upon. while i'd rather not exist in any sexist lifestyles as you term it.

DELETED

all because i think outside of the box. i'm thinking like a cop.
was there smoke in the children's lungs? what was the primary cod of all of them?
a flash fire, which if this fire was what it was, is, is very fast.
why didn't the 3 year old scream and likely he did, how come no other children woke up?
sometimes when investigating things, there are questions that no one likes to ask, yet they have to be asked in order to make sure things were not foul.

DELETED

if this family lived in section 8 or a trailer park, would you think different of my questions? i would ask the same questions in any circumstance, any ethnic or cultural lifestyle as they should be asked.

(above bbm)
I thought the term "sexist" or "sexism" was orginally in your post, so I was drawing off that. ETA: (The post with reference to sexism):
Originally Posted by chemcopout
let me explain for you, as you have twisted my words. the 3 year old and 2/1 year old miranda were watching tv. the articles didn't state until what the other children were doing until after i posted my comment.

as for mennonite society, google it, it's a patriarchal society where boys are considered more "dominant" that girls, the men are more than women. it's sexist a society. here's a link to an article that might help explain the sexism that goes on in mennonite culture and an attempt to undo it:

***********


I don't really understand what living in a trailer has to do with anything -- I've always detested the term "trailer trash" -- but maybe that's because for part of my childhood, I lived in a trailer. I dunno. I think I turned out ok, despite that fact.

There's certainly nothing wrong with thinking outside the box -- or thinking like a cop. I come from a family of cops. I guess it's in the way the questions are asked. You probably have some pretty insightful ideas lurking around in your head -- I'd love to hear them, personally, but I start to tune things out when they're presented in an antagonistic way.

 

[jjenny]

This sounds like a tragic accident, but it appears these parents still left the children (some very young) at home alone. I personally have little doubt this would get a very different reaction if the mother was outside for some other more frivolous reason than milking the cows.

 

[MsFacetious]

We did have a family here who lost their 5 year old daughter in a fire with no adults in the home. Mom left for work, starting the dryer before she left for work. Dad was on his way home from the graveyard shift. The smoke alarms went off. The 8 year old and 11 year old couldn't get down the hallway to get to the 5 year old. They got out and ran to Grandma's.

They weren't babies... there was no propane... and although I probably couldn't have done what the parents did, I couldn't really find fault with the parents either.

http://www.abc4.com/news/local/story/Fire-kills-5-year-old-girl/Eo7gTHKfOkyHcHn0AebjNg.cspx

http://www.ksl.com/?sid=13836970&nid=148

I have left my kids inside asleep to feed the horses. I am outside about 5 minutes. I have only done this on rare occasions when for some reason I didn't get them fed before bedtime. The horses are about 3 truck lengths from the house.

I have run outside to help carry my mother to the truck, bring in food from the freezer, install car seats, quickly, bring in things from the truck or things like that which couldn't wait until morning. I've never been outside for more than a few minutes at a time. I will continually run back in to check on the kids.

Granted, my children have special needs and the most typical one cannot be trusted to be alone in the house for long.

However, we also do not have a space heater, candles or a propane heating system of any kind.

At the cabin, there is propane.

There, I will not do anything more than run out to get something out of the truck.

It really is the propane that I am struggling to get past in this case. That is already a risk no matter who is in the house and the grandfather immediately said he thought that's what caused the fire. If it wasn't for the additional obvious risk of propane and this fire was an unpredictable freak accident... that'd be totally different. I just can't imagine being able to leave my kids in the house with the propane.

However I also don't have 8 children... or cows to milk... and I'm not pregnant with another one. So I don't know and I'm not going to judge. That is just the only thing that really bothers me.

 

[lillygator]

I couldn't have said it better myself as I spent many hours on the farm and in the barn milking cows. After you take the electric milkers off you have to striip the cows by hand as in hand milking. If the milkers are going it's very hard to hear anything. FYI my Dad used to drive a milk truck. He left at 3am in the morning and did not get back till 3 or 4 pm. He had to wait on the farmers to load the milk then take it to the plant. Bless his heart he was so tired then.
I understand exactly what this family was going through before the fire.
This was a horrible accident, that's all. The children were obiviously healthy and happy from their picture. I'm sure the parents will live with tremendous guilt the rest of their life.
They need our prayers and have mine.

if this is the case with the milkers and noise ALL the more reason children should have never been left ALONE in the house.

 

[Dave AHFB]

My cousin Allison is organizing a benefit auction in order to build a Memorial Playground at Heritage Christian School in Loysville, dedicated to the memory of the seven Clouse children. This beneficiary was selected by the Clouse family.

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Clouse-Children-Memorial-Playground/209168269098878

http://www.cw15.com/news/local/story/Playground-seeks-donations/i1Z4UJprLEKrNwx1jzWGOA.cspx

http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2011/04/auction_to_benefit_memorial_pl.html

 

[Linda7NJ]

sniped

"if the babies were sleeping, they still need to be watched. sleeping babies awaken and bad things could and in this case, had happened.


the parents should have arranged shifts so that at least one of them was awake with the babies at all times.
(obviously bathroom breaks are allowed)

.

Really? Who stays awake all night watching babies sleep just incase they wake up?

 

[tezi]

Really? Who stays awake all night watching babies sleep just incase they wake up?

I was wondering that myself. I slept when my children slept at night, as did my husband. We do the same thing with the grandbabies. I guess that makes us unfit too, huh?

 

[ScorpRising]

I was wondering that myself. I slept when my children slept at night, as did my husband. We do the same thing with the grandbabies. I guess that makes us unfit too, huh?

I'm quite unfit myself. We sleep when they sleep. We go out in the yard while they sleep. During the winter, we watched the lunar eclipse outside while they slept. We watch meteor showers and gaze at far off galaxies while they sleep.

When weighing the options, I didn't think it right to have a 5yo and 5mo outside on a freezing winter morning at 2:30 when older one had school in the morning. I had the baby out during a meteor shower last summer at 1 mo and I was criticized for that also.

There's never going to be an option that makes everyone happy. Had she dragged them out with her for milking in the cold, there'd be an issue with that too.

 

[chemcopout]

Really? Who stays awake all night watching babies sleep just incase they wake up?

my mother did. so does my brother. he watches his son sleep. he loves his baby and is an excellent dad

 

[ScorpRising]

my mother did. so does my brother. he watches his son sleep. he loves his baby and is an excellent dad

When does he sleep? Awake when they're awake... Awake to watch them sleep...

I love my boys dearly and watch them sleep for a few minutes every night but to remain for the night I'd be exhausted...

 

[Linda7NJ]

my mother did. so does my brother. he watches his son sleep. he loves his baby and is an excellent dad

I check in on my child in the middle of the night, when on the way to the bathroom or fridge for a late night snack. I consider myself a great parent. I will be the first to admit that when my baby napped, I napped and when he slept I tried to as well. When my child was an infant he was next to my bed and when he started sleeping through the night he moved to his own room with a baby monitor.

I feel his dad is a great dad too but he has a job and would also be unavailable to stay up all night watching my child sleep.

 

[Dave AHFB]

Yesterday was the big donation dropoff day for the Clouse Children Memorial Playground Auction. I have attached an image of the quilt which was made and donated by the childrens Great-Grandmother. There are still 2 weeks before the auction, so if you have an item to donate you may contact me at ahfb at ahfb2000 d0t c0m and I will put you in touch with my cousin Allison who is putting this all together.

Monetary donations may be made payable to Clouse Children Memorial Fund and mailed to Heritage Christian School, 2401 Fort Robinson Road, Loysville, PA 17047.

For those in the area that may be able to attend the auction here are the details:

CLOUSE CHILDREN MEMORIAL AUCTION
SATURDAY, MAY 14 2011
9 AM
7 AM AUCTION PREVIEW
Fahnestock Auction House
328 Brady Road
New Bloomfield, PA 17068

A benefit auction is being held to honor the memory of the seven Clouse children who perished in the fire at their family’s home in Loysville, PA on March 8, 2011.

At the family's request, a memorial playground will be built in honor of the Clouse Children at the Heritage Christian School of West Perry, Loysville, PA.

**Donations needed**
Quality new and used items such as: antiques, art, furniture, household items, hunting and fishing equipment, tools, quilts and more! Bake sale items are also welcome.

Help spread the word of the event! Share it with your friends and family.

Donation drop-off days are being held on:
Friday, April 29 - Noon to 9 PM
Friday, May 13 - Noon to 9 PM
Saturday, May 14 - *Bake sale donations only* - 6 AM to 9 AM.
Fahnestock’s Auction House, 328 Brady Rd, New Bloomfield.

To schedule an appointment outside of these times, please contact Allison Mullen at 717-386-0877 or mullena101@embarqmail.com or Nevin Fahnestock at 717-582-8565 or nhfahnestock@comcast.net

Preview of the auction items, as they become available, at: http://www.auctionzip.com/Listings/1104756.html
Auctioneer ID # 1909

Shop at our online Fundraising Magazine website, where you can buy magazines up to 85% off, with up to 40% of the proceeds being donated to the playground fund:
http://www.efundraisingonline.com/ClouseChildrenMemorialPlayground

Monetary donations towards the playground fund may be made payable to:
Clouse Children Memorial Fund
Delivered to: Heritage Christian School
2401 Fort Robinson Road
Loysville, PA 17047
http://www.hcswp.org/

Here is the quilt made by the childrens Great-Grandmother

 

[peeples]

If it were I that won, I'd pay and then give it back to the great grandma