TX - Dallas police shoot mentally ill man armed with screwdriver: old case, new video

[daisytrail]

By the way, I have a bi-polar, paranoid schizophrenic brother. My family has had to call LE in the past to help us. I am aware that the people we call have guns at the ready and might use them. I would hate for that to happen but I have to know it is a possibility if I call them to our home.

With your brother having both those illnesses, I understand that your family deals with huge challenges. You have all my support and sympathy.

 

[al66pine]

So what is a family supposed to do if they have a mentally ill violent family member who they can't control, and they can't call the police for fear that the cops will shoot him?

bbm

Like I said in earlier post: When this kind of behavior occurs, then recurs repeatedly, it seems to call for something other than
LEOs knocking on door & trying to cajole or "talk them down." IDK what.

Sad, sad, sad for all involved.

 

[formerjerseygirl]

I just happened to catch the brother on cnn. Brooke Baldwin called him out on the Facts that previously police had been called because his brother was threatening the mother with a butcher knife and he had a gun out. {he denied this but she asked if he was the only brother and he said yes} and Le has been called to their home over 100 times. That is not a typo.I feel for the family but watched some of the video from one of the officers bodycam. Officers were in a bad situation and i feel worse for them. They are police not mental health experts. 100 times. smh

 

[KaaBoom]

bbm

Like I said in earlier post: When this kind of behavior occurs, then recurs repeatedly, it seems to call for something other than
LEOs knocking on door & trying to cajole or "talk them down." IDK what.

Sad, sad, sad for all involved.

Well if you don't have a better solution, then you really shouldn't be condemning this woman.

 

[al66pine]

I just happened to catch the brother on cnn. Brooke Baldwin called him out on the Facts that previously police had been called because his brother was threatening the mother with a butcher knife and he had a gun out. {he denied this but she asked if he was the only brother and he said yes} and Le has been called to their home over 100 times. That is not a typo.I feel for the family but watched some of the video from one of the officers bodycam. Officers were in a bad situation and i feel worse for them. They are police not mental health experts. 100 times. smh

bbm

When MI son threatened Mom w knife, who was ^'he'^ w gun - MI son (now dead) or son being interviewed?
Sorry to be dense but want to get it clear.

On linked recording that lliljim posted (THANK YOU, liljim) I could hear background voices (of first responders?)
talking about previous calls and somebody w gun at most recent one, but I could not tell who had gun.

Can anybody else understand what they said after shooting?

 

[al66pine]

Well if you don't have a better solution, then you really shouldn't be condemning this woman.

Sorry that I cannot offer a better solution.

Can you pls copy and paste my words in my posts "condemning this woman'?_________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From my post last night, which does not condemn her, as I see it:
"First this is a terrible shame. I cannot imagine being in the shoes of this family - not in any of the following:
1. bipolar and schizophrenic 38 y/o adult son living at home or
2. having on multiple occasions called 911 for police to respond to him menacing other members of household, or
3. being a family member who phoned for assistance from LE, who ended up shooting him, resulting in his death.
Doubtful that anyone wants to be a member of any one of those 'clubs' and certainly not a member of all three.

From many sources, I've read about deficient programs for treating mentally ill patients in US and do not doubt that the criticism.
I understand fam & friends cannot force person to seek diagnosis, to be treated, to take meds, to follow dr. orders, to be committed, etc.

But when ppl ask 911 for LE to respond to one of these fam situations, what do they want and/or expect LEOs to do? IDK.
IIUC, callers usu have already asked, told, ordered demanded the person to not harm, to stop attacking, to take their meds, to go to ER, "

 

[daisytrail]

Thanks daisy for the treatment link info and your personal input.

re "Yes, this is a police matter because the families of the mentally ill deserve police protection."
When this kind of behavior occurs, then recurs repeatedly, it seems to call for something other than
LEOs knocking on door & trying to cajole or "talk them down." IDK what.

ETA:
re: "Our right to be protected in our homes is just as important as our right to be protected in our neighborhoods." Sounds good, but, but, but.
Our "right to be protected in our neighborhoods" translates into our right to seek assistance from LEOs after a crime.
No person has a "right" to have an LEO or two to accompany him/her in daily life - going to & from work, grocery, drycleaners,
dropping off & picking up kids at school, at soccer, scouts, and visiting grandma in hosp, church, movies, etc.

The "right to be protected in our neighborhoods" translates into after-the-fact help LEOs provide in getting info about crime, identifying attacker/robber/pickpocket/rapist/batterer, who committed physical crime against us, then locating & arresting the perp, involving prosecuting atty, criminal courts, etc.

Is the "right to be protected in our homes" - against mentally ill household members - same as the "right to be protected in our neighborhoods" ?
(Spousal or intimate partner dom violence or physical abuse is a different subject, imo.)

re: "Until someone has dealt with the problem of a mentally ill family member, they do not understand what these families go through."
I think the same is true re what LEOs deal w in responding to these calls (plus many other types of calls).
Until someone has dealt with the problems LEOs deals w, they do not understand what these LEOs go through.

Actually, there are LEOs connected with CITs who have gone through it and know how to handle I, and it is a matter of training and funding to help LEOS be more effective at dealing with the mentally ill. Also, the officers who resist such training simply should not be sent to deal with the mentally ill.

Families can do their part, but this also is a matter of education. People are not born knowing how to deal with mentally ill family members, but when family have done what they can and it has not helped, it is up to law enforcement to respond, just as they have to respond to domestic violence situations. These are a type of situation of domestic violence. However, do to the mental illness of one of the people involved, a slightly different approach may be needed.

As for the "something other than LEOs knocking on door & trying to cajole or 'talk them down,'" we seem to have little resistance to officers doing exactly that in domestic violence situations. So why the resistance when it comes to dealing with the mentally ill?

I am puzzled by your insistence that LEOs only have an obligation to act after a crime has occurred. Why? Is not prevention of some value if it saves lives? I am also puzzled as to why you see spousal abuse and domestic violence as being so different. I am old enough to remember when spousal abuse was pretty much ignored until someone died. I am glad we are no longer that backward. I see no reason why we should remain backward when dealing with the mentally ill.

Also, just a request: I prefer to be addressed by my full user name. My first name is not "Daisy."

 

[katydid23]

Well if you don't have a better solution, then you really shouldn't be condemning this woman.

And if the family didn't have a better solution, rather than calling the cops to their home over 100x, then maybe they shouldnt be condemning the cops.

 

[katydid23]

Actually, there are LEOs connected with CITs who have gone through it and know how to handle I, and it is a matter of training and funding to help LEOS be more effective at dealing with the mentally ill. Also, the officers who resist such training simply should not be sent to deal with the mentally ill.

Families can do their part, but this also is a matter of education. People are not born knowing how to deal with mentally ill family members, but when family have done what they can and it has not helped, it is up to law enforcement to respond, just as they have to respond to domestic violence situations. These are a type of situation of domestic violence. However, do to the mental illness of one of the people involved, a slightly different approach may be needed.

As for the "something other than LEOs knocking on door & trying to cajole or 'talk them down,'" we seem to have little resistance to officers doing exactly that in domestic violence situations. So why the resistance when it comes to dealing with the mentally ill?

I am puzzled by your insistence that LEOs only have an obligation to act after a crime has occurred. Why? Is not prevention of some value if it saves lives? I am also puzzled as to why you see spousal abuse and domestic violence as being so different. I am old enough to remember when spousal abuse was pretty much ignored until someone died. I am glad we are no longer that backward. I see no reason why we should remain backward when dealing with the mentally ill.

Also, just a request: I prefer to be addressed by full user name. My first name is not "Daisy."

IMO, NONE of the above matters, once the subject lunges at the officer while holding a weapon. At that moment it is entirely too late for cajoling or deescalating. In that split second, self preservation takes over. And it should.

You compare it to 'domestic violence.' But I don't think the cops are ever called to a home over 100X for the same suspect in DV. That suspect would have already been incarcerated.

So over 100 times the cops dealt with this mentally ill man, without shooting. It looks like they do know how to properly deal with him. But even with proper training and experience things can go sideways.

Why is it that a man that is so out of control that his family calls the cops hundreds of times--is still at home?

 

[katydid23]

If your house caught fire would you call the Fire Department? If you answer yes, then do you consider the Fire Department to just be your personal servants? You just call them anytime, and just expect them to come and put out your fires?

Of course you would, because thats what you are paying taxes for. And this woman is paying taxes too, and has a right to receive police and fire services too, as often as she needs them.

This I agree with. Since I have very low expectations for American police. But that is not what should happen.

But if a family called the fire dept over 100x I would think they were using them inappropriately.

As to your 'low expectations' for American police---you do know that they dealt with and handled this same man over 100x, right? I'd say that was a pretty successful effort.

I'd like to see what YOU would have done if that big, strong, irrational armed man lunged at you in a small space. Would you try to soothe him?

 

[nothingnew]

So what is a family supposed to do if they have a mentally ill violent family member who they can't control, and they can't call the police for fear that the cops will shoot him?

If there is a violent member of your household that cannot be controlled it would seem that a proper placement would be in a mental institute where you can visit with them. Or visit them in prison, the cemetery or the state hospital after they attack an innocent member of society. MOO

 

[daisytrail]

If there is a violent member of your household that cannot be controlled it would seem that a proper placement would be in a mental institute where you can visit with them. Or visit them in prison, the cemetery or the state hospital after they attack an innocent member of society. MOO

You cannot have someone involuntarily committed unless there is real evidence of self injury or threat of self injury or injury to others or threat of such injury. It is a court-proceeding. It takes money to get a lawyer. The police are actually the legal avenue to begin the process, as I posted earlier with the lawyer's link. This is the law. At best, even then, the police will take him to a mental hospital for a 3-day to 2 week hold, and then he is out again.

 

[Woodland]

Fwiw, seems no one has a solution imo. Can only see 2 sides so far - shoot them so society is rid of them or place them in facility where they are cared for.

The cared for route should be traveled lightly - no one really cares, imo, if they are not a family member - it's a job. They will be attended to - but that's about it. Jmo.

 

[daisytrail]

IMO, NONE of the above matters, once the subject lunges at the officer while holding a weapon. At that moment it is entirely too late for cajoling or deescalating. In that split second, self preservation takes over. And it should.

You compare it to 'domestic violence.' But I don't think the cops are ever called to a home over 100X for the same suspect in DV. That suspect would have already been incarcerated.

So over 100 times the cops dealt with this mentally ill man, without shooting. It looks like they do know how to properly deal with him. But even with proper training and experience things can go sideways.

Why is it that a man that is so out of control that his family calls the cops hundreds of times--is still at home?

And the part about Crisis Intervention Training? What are your thoughts on that?

You're darn right the police would have taken someone in if it was merely a matter of spousal abuse or threat. My argument is that we need similar such procedures for mentally ill people who display aggression towards family members, with the appropriate treatment agenda in a mental health facility.

 

[daisytrail]

bbm

When MI son threatened Mom w knife, who was ^'he'^ w gun - MI son (now dead) or son being interviewed?
Sorry to be dense but want to get it clear.

On linked recording that lliljim posted (THANK YOU, liljim) I could hear background voices (of first responders?)
talking about previous calls and somebody w gun at most recent one, but I could not tell who had gun.

Can anybody else understand what they said after shooting?

One thing I could hear that they said was that a few weeks back there had been a problem. Something about his brother had and gun and he had a knife and they took him to Green Oaks. Green Oaks treats the mentally ill. If you will listen carefully, they said a few (or two) weeks ago. In other words, Green Oaka let him out.

 

[al66pine]

Actually, there are LEOs connected with (2) CITs who have gone through it and (3) know how to handle I, and it is a matter of training and funding to help LEOS be more effective at dealing with the mentally ill. Also, the officers who resist such training simply should not be sent to deal with the mentally ill.

Families can do their part, but this also is a matter of education. People are not born knowing how to deal with mentally ill family members, but when family have done what they can and it has not helped, it is up to law enforcement to respond, just as they have to respond to domestic violence situations. These are a type of situation of domestic violence. However, do to the mental illness of one of the people involved, a slightly different approach may be needed.

As for the "something other than LEOs knocking on door & trying to cajole or 'talk them down,'" we seem to have (4) little resistance to officers doing exactly that in domestic violence situations. So why the resistance when it comes to dealing with the mentally ill?

I am puzzled by (5) your insistence that LEOs only have an obligation to act after a crime has occurred. Why? (6) Is not prevention of some value if it saves lives? I am also puzzled as to why you see spousal abuse and domestic violence as being so different. I am old enough to (7) remember when spousal abuse was pretty much ignored until someone died. I am glad we are no longer that backward. I see no reason whywe should
(8) remain backward when dealing with the mentally ill.

(1) Also, just a request: I prefer to be addressed by my full user name. My first name is not "Daisy."

<<< my (#) in red


daisytrail
1. Apologies for shortening your full user name. I should not done that; it was inappropriate.

2. I'd like to read more about CIT's, how they operate, are funded, etc. Any suggestions, esp online?

3. "...LEOs connected with CITs who have gone through it and know how to handle..."
It's terrific that some LE agencies train for and can handle these situations.

4. Comparing LE response to spousal dom vio to LE response to MI person dom vio?
As some ppl on this thread have said, at some point well before 100+ dom vio calls from same couple, seems there would be arrests.
W spousal or I/P dom vio situations, we have 2 non-MI adults. Well, imo, 2 diff subjects, jmo, moo.

5. Not insisting that LEOs are obligated to act only after a crime has occurred.
My point was distinguishing general nature of crimes "in neighborhoods" vs crimes "in homes" You said we have a right to protection from both.

a) In neighborhood - usu LE assistance is after the fact, because by its very nature, perp typically commits crime against victim,& perp leaves.
While getting mugged etc in the street, vic's call to 911 is not fast enough for LE arrive there on the spot before perp leaves.

b) In home - fam calling 911 re MI person, when LE arrives 'perp' is still w 'vic' at scene (often, at least that's what I get from this case).
In cases of stranger unlawfully entering home & stealing, usu vic would be away at time of burglar, etc. so vic calls 911 after the fact.

6. Not saying LEs' preventing crime is not "of some value if it saves lives." Saying they tend to arrest after crimes, can't always prevent crimes.

7. Spousal abuse in the past was ignored until someone died? I do not recall that commonly happening (personally I'm north of 55, jme, meo).
Certainly some was not reported, and yes, some was ignored. IDK how widely re either.
Again that is a different subject and expounding about it will not, imo, further exploring poss solutions w MI-persons & LE interface.

8. "Remain backward when dealing with the mentally ill"? No, not saying that.
Wondering if fam of MI-persons menacing, threatening etc, can reasonably expect LE to resolve those issues/problems/situations for them
without injury to fam members, to MI persons, or to LE? Some of the time, most of the time, every time?
Can US LE train & gear up to do that? Every time? Or is the health care/medical environment better tasked w this? IDK

 

[katydid23]

And the part about Crisis Intervention Training? What are your thoughts on that?

You're darn right the police would have taken someone in if it was merely a matter of spousal abuse or threat. My argument is that we need similar such procedures for mentally ill people who display aggression towards family members, with the appropriate treatment agenda in a mental health facility.

According to what I saw from a tv talking head on CNN< these officers DID have crisis intervention training. As i said, they successfully dealt with this same man 100 times already. Seems they averted danger all of those times. He came out that door with a weapon and lunged. At that point there is very little that can be done to change the situation. They did what they could to save themselves.

 

[nothingnew]

Fwiw, seems no one has a solution imo. Can only see 2 sides so far - shoot them so society is rid of them or place them in facility where they are cared for.

The cared for route should be traveled lightly - no one really cares, imo, if they are not a family member - it's a job. They will be attended to - but that's about it. Jmo.

No one cares except for family members? That's offensive to the many people working as psych techs because they specifically care. I know many people in the field who are there for that very reason. FYI, there are many guests at the hospital that do NOT get visitors so that blows the whole "only family cares" business out the window. Maybe because it's what the media chooses to put in the papers but in my county there are way more homicides committed by people with mental health issues than the crimes of passion that seemingly come out of nowhere.

I didn't see any posts stating just shoot them as an option that folks are endorsing?

 

[Woodland]

Well I can speak about offensive - we pay for people to fill in when family cannot to visit my elderly MIL - twice in the last 8 months we have caught the employees of 2 different companies charging for time they were not there. Prior to being caught - oh how they cared! Whether the person is elderly or impaired in some way - imo maybe 1 in 1,000 just might care about the job they are being paid for. It is not a nice job - and who applies for that job? The demand is there, so it is filled.

On your other question - no one is endorsing this person being shot? Perception on the wording in various posts varies from person to person, I guess. He lunged with a screwdriver, LE has been called to the home many times, he was difficult to deal with - now he's gone. Mom is upset but she is wrong, according to some, as she used LE as a way to deal with her son etc. My perception on what I am reading.

I don't pretend to have a be all and end all solution - just commenting on those that seem to. Maybe they are right, maybe they are not.

 

[katydid23]

Well I can speak about offensive - we pay for people to fill in when family cannot to visit my elderly MIL - twice in the last 8 months we have caught the employees of 2 different companies charging for time they were not there. Prior to being caught - oh how they cared! Whether the person is elderly or impaired in some way - imo maybe 1 in 1,000 just might care about the job they are being paid for. It is not a nice job - and who applies for that job? The demand is there, so it is filled.

On your other question - no one is endorsing this person being shot? Perception on the wording in various posts varies from person to person, I guess. He lunged with a screwdriver, LE has been called to the home many times, he was difficult to deal with - now he's gone. Mom is upset but she is wrong, according to some, as she used LE as a way to deal with her son etc. My perception on what I am reading.

I don't pretend to have a be all and end all solution - just commenting on those that seem to. Maybe they are right, maybe they are not.

" no one is endorsing this person being shot? Perception on the wording in various posts varies from person to person, I guess. He lunged with a screwdriver, LE has been called to the home many times, he was difficult to deal with - now he's gone. Mom is upset but she is wrong, according to some, as she used LE as a way to deal with her son etc. My perception on what I am reading."

IMO, He did lunge, LE has been called there over 100x, and he was difficult to deal with. Am I wrong about any of that?

Now this part, I think was misconstrued. You said :

"Mom is upset but she is wrong, according to some, as she used LE as a way to deal with her son etc. "

I don't think anyone thinks Mom is 'wrong' for being upset. Totally understandable. And I don't think it is wrong to call cops for help, although 100+ times is a bit much. What I think is wrong, is for her to call out the LE as killers, when she herself called them for help over 100x because she herself was afraid of her son and could not control him.

I have no solution and I have a paranoid schizophrenic younger brother. I do not have him in my home anymore--never ever, because he threatened my family several times and had to be hauled off by LE. But the hospital lets him out after 3 days with a bottle of pills, which he does not take anyway.

The longterm solution is hard to figure. But cops are just a short term solution. So if one family needs to call them to their home over 100 times, something is really wrong. And it just seems hypocritical, IMO, for the family to say the cops had no idea how to handle the mentally ill, when the family didn't do so well at it either. If they were such experts why the 100 calls to 911?