GUILTY TX - Jose, 3, & Guillermo Garcia, 1, stabbed to death, San Antonio, 2 Feb 2010

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wfgodot said:
It would never have happened on your watch, I'm sure. Nor would the twenty others in your caseload ever escape your watchful eye, nor uncanny ability to read minds.

We all want everything to turn out right. But some actually do work in the field and attempt to modify for the better conditions so long out of control. To scoff at their failures does not erase the scores of thousands of daily successes.
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im sorry this argument loses merit when the worker was there ONE DAY before they were murdered. not one sign? why was the worker there in the first place?
 
Missizzy said:
Why don't parents realize, in their muddled states, that any police officer, firefighter, or social worker will be more than happy to come pick up the babies if you call and say, "I'm going to kill my babies, now." Why?

Many of the parents seem to have great remorse afterwards. Many are said to have "lived" for the children and adored them. Oftentimes, the babies are well dressed and laid out. The murders must be excruciatingly horrid for the parent. Why put themselves through the pain? Why not simply have them taken away?

I feel like we need to post fliers in WalMarts and Safeways around the country addressing this growing problem. "If you are considering harming your child, call 911, simply explain your plan, and an officer will respond within 3 minutes." And detail what steps will be taken so the parents know what to expect. We do this with suicide prevention and STD prevention. Why not infanticide?

I'm reminded of the hoopla over the Chicago mom who left her healthy and well dressed baby at the police station. I'm still praising her actions. I think we need to hurry with the Relief Nurseries and/or extend the Safe Haven laws. We can't keep losing babies.
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I just wanted to tell you that I just love your posts!
 
i think missizzy is a 100 percent right with the mom in chicago......why are they crucifying her?
its better to leave your baby at a police station, in good condition then to have these things happen, over and over again.
 
kbl8201 said:
im sorry this argument loses merit when the worker was there ONE DAY before they were murdered. not one sign? why was the worker there in the first place?
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Making a regular weekly visit, I would expect. Do you conceive of CPS as some haphazard operation guided by whim?

As for your conception of homicidal mania, you seem to believe that it always announces itself either visually or verbally, and ahead of time, and to the proper authority - and if it does not, that caseworkers should then draw upon their extrasensory ability to divine it.
 
wfgodot said:
Making a regular weekly visit, I would expect. Do you conceive of CPS as some haphazard operation guided by whim?

As for your conception of homicidal mania, you seem to believe that it always announces itself either visually or verbally, and ahead of time, and to the proper authority - and if it does not, that caseworkers should then draw upon their extrasensory ability to divine it.
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i dont know what cps is guided by.
but whenever they blow it, its always 'overworked, underpaid, understaffed'. i. you can say the cases here at websleuths are rare, but they are still too many.
 
I am certain that the caseworker is in shock and will blame herself forever. My heart is aching for her. I'm also very concerned that this young mother was on a path to disaster that no one could have foretold. We need to look at two statments:

"It appears the mother was receptive, responsive and cooperative," Walker said."

"On Colon's street, neighbor A.P., 34, said she had talked to the woman a couple of times and said she seemed like she was in a daze.


Elyse tested negative for meth. I'm going to believe that she most likely wasn't using or she wouldn't have come back negative. This leads me to believe that there was a major mood disorder going on here. Elyse is 22, the prime age for the onset of schizophrenia and bipolar. Pregnancy and birth are known to typically (not always) exacerbate these disorders.

It's my sense that the domestic violence, two pregnancies close together, PPD, and the onset of a mood disorder leads us to these two discordant statements and to the murder of two innocent babies. I have no doubt that if other neighbors were talked to, they would have vastly varying accounts of Elyse's demeanor.

Notice that one child was in pre-school, probably Head Start. Head Start teachers and administrators work with the child's entire family. Staff are trained to watch for red flags. CPS was called for a rash, for heaven's sake. People were doing their job. I think this woman had a private hell that none of us can imagine and that she did, indeed, disassociate, and kill her babies. I imagine that the neighbor is correct. Elyse was in a daze. Due to a mood swing, she was able to pull it together to look put together for the caseworker and then she swung back into darkness.

kbl--I'm afraid that you are going to have to accept the fact that some things do occur without the waving of red flags. A young couple with domestic violence in the home. Two little boys under three. Probably financial issues. This story plays out hundreds of thousands of times across the US everyday and the babies go to bed safe. This time, they died.

I believe that everyone did everything they could have and should have. Only Elyse knows what went on in her brain and in that bedroom. She could be evil or she could have suffered a horrible break from reality due to stress and hormones. Only she knows. She will bear the pain of remembering her actions until her last breath.



I want to send my kindest support to all of you on this thread who work in child welfare. I've already heard from two dear friends today who are caseworkers. This hurts. I know how hard you fight.
 
Missizzy said:
I am certain that the caseworker is in shock and will blame herself forever. My heart is aching for her. I'm also very concerned that this young mother was on a path to disaster that no one could have foretold. We need to look at two statments:

"It appears the mother was receptive, responsive and cooperative," Walker said.

On Colon's street, neighbor A.P., 34, said she had talked to the woman a couple of times and said she seemed like she was in a daze.

Elyse tested negative for meth. I'm going to believe that she most likely wasn't using or she wouldn't have come back negative. This leads me to believe that there was a major mood disorder going on here. Elyse is 22, the prime age for the onset of schizophrenia and bipolar. Pregnancy and birth are known to typically (not always) exacerbate these disorders.

It's my sense that the domestic violence, two pregnancies close together, PPD, and the onset of a mood disorder leads us to these two discordant statements and to the murder of two innocent babies. I have no doubt that if other neighbors were talked to, they would have vastly varying accounts of Elyse's demeanor.

Notice that one child was in pre-school, probably Head Start. Head Start teachers and administrators work with the child's entire family. Staff are trained to watch for red flags. CPS was called for a rash, for heaven's sake. People were doing their job. I think this woman had a private hell that none of us can imagine and that she did, indeed, disassociate, and kill her babies. I imagine that the neighbor is correct. Elyse was in a daze. Due to a mood swing, she was able to pull it together to look put together for the caseworker and then she swung back into darkness.

kbl--I'm afraid that you are going to have to accept the fact that some things do occur without the waving of red flags. A young couple with domestic violence in the home. Two little boys under three. Probably financial issues. This story plays out hundreds of thousands of times across the US everyday and the babies go to bed safe. This time, they died.

I believe that everyone did everything they could have and should have. Only Elyse knows what went on in her brain and in that bedroom. She could be evil or she could have suffered a horrible break from reality due to stress and hormones. Only she knows. She will bear the pain of remembering her actions until her last breath.



I want to send my kindest support to all of you on this thread who work in child welfare. I've already heard from two dear friends today who are caseworkers. This hurts. I know how hard you fight.
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maybe in this particullar case im being unreasonable. but im jaded.....not just by cps or dcfs or whatever the state we happen to be in calls it, but by our justice system as a whole. it doesnt work.....i tried to make a huge diffrence once and found that the sytem only works for those who have power, money and arroganace.
im just sick of seeing the same stories repeated over and over again :(
 
kbl8021

With all due respect, a CPS worker is NOT a psychiatrist. Honestly, if CPS has to show up it is quite possible this mother put on a happy face because she didn't want to lose her children but at the same time was overwhelmed to the point she couldn't think straight. I would not expect a CPS worker to walk into a situation and assess a possible depressive issue. Lets not forget CPS must bring the order before a judge and it is the judge who decides to remove the children from the home.


If I may ask are you a parent?
 
Cubby said:
kbl8021

With all due respect, a CPS worker is NOT a psychiatrist. Honestly, if CPS has to show up it is quite possible this mother put on a happy face because she didn't want to lose her children but at the same time was overwhelmed to the point she couldn't think straight. I would not expect a CPS worker to walk into a situation and assess a possible depressive issue. Lets not forget CPS must bring the order before a judge and it is the judge who decides to remove the children from the home.


If I may ask are you a parent?
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i already said i jumped to conclusions.
 
personally im not being treated fairly here.
i read this garbage every day on this sight.......cps does nothing, doctors and nurses know a fellow doctor is a child molester but do nothing, parole boards release criminals to seek new victims.
 
Wow, the husband was illegally here and in jail, the rent had to be paid by some agency, plus CPS had been called on them 3 times already. She was accused of doing drugs (negative) and beating her child when it was only a rash but actually going thru some sort of domestic violence. I'd say all that definitely could push a paranoid or very mentally unstable person over the edge. I sure don't want teachers or cps workers deciding parents are nuts and trying to force treatment but in some cases maybe an evaluation would be best.
 
CPS, medicine, parenting, education, and the justice system (to name a few) are imperfect sciences. This is because we, as humans, are unpredictable and complex. We have struggled in these fields since the beginning of time. There are so many conflicting and mitigating factors that no assurance of success can ever be expected. We can try new systems and models and approaches. Some work and some don't.

Can we all agree that this is a heart-wrenching situation for the children lost, then entire extended family, the community, the school and the caseworkers? I'm getting a strong sense in this particular case that many people did step up and do what they thought would help.

Does everyone realize that this woman could have been standing behind you in the grocery store yesterday? She might have smiled and thanked you for complementing her baby. Or, she might have struck you as a sad and overwrought mom. There's just no way to know which of those "women" is going to go home and murder her children.

We have a tough enough time reading our own spouses and kids. Trying to figure out what is going on within the dynamics of another family in crisis is a like walking into the unknown. CPS and the school tried. If the school teacher would have grabbed the kids and taken them to another county liked the Baptists did in Haiti, we'd be up in arms about that. It's a fine line we have to walk concerning safety and privacy, support and heavy-handedness. I don't envy front line workers, teachers, doctors, or judges. For the most part, these professionals give it their all but they never know which client, student, patient or defendant is going to succeed or who's going to fail or who's going to act on an impulse which cannot be undone.

I hope all of us ponder these deaths and remember again how much help our young people need today. This is not a pleasant or gentle world. We all need family, friends, and support. We need help.
 
Missizzy said:
Why don't parents realize, in their muddled states, that any police officer, firefighter, or social worker will be more than happy to come pick up the babies if you call and say, "I'm going to kill my babies, now." Why?

Many of the parents seem to have great remorse afterwards. Many are said to have "lived" for the children and adored them. Oftentimes, the babies are well dressed and laid out. The murders must be excruciatingly horrid for the parent. Why put themselves through the pain? Why not simply have them taken away?

I feel like we need to post fliers in WalMarts and Safeways around the country addressing this growing problem. "If you are considering harming your child, call 911, simply explain your plan, and an officer will respond within 3 minutes." And detail what steps will be taken so the parents know what to expect. We do this with suicide prevention and STD prevention. Why not infanticide?

I'm reminded of the hoopla over the Chicago mom who left her healthy and well dressed baby at the police station. I'm still praising her actions. I think we need to hurry with the Relief Nurseries and/or extend the Safe Haven laws. We can't keep losing babies.
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I agree 100%
 
Not to rub salt in a wound, but here's a disturbing fact contained in the Fox article I just read concerning this story:

"The attack occurred less than three miles from the home where prosecutors say a woman decapitated and butchered her 3-week-old boy last summer. The woman, Otty Sanchez, is charged with capital murder."

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,584677,00.html?sPage=fnc/us/crime

Egads.
 
im thru arguing i have nothing left here.
dont know why i open these threads in the first place..,i know i wont find anything but misery.
 
kbl8201 said:
personally im not being treated fairly here.
i read this garbage every day on this sight.......cps does nothing, doctors and nurses know a fellow doctor is a child molester but do nothing, parole boards release criminals to seek new victims.
Click to expand...

I totally understand and respect your outrage! :hug:
 
kbl--Ponder this tonight, please. I don't think this particular case is a breakdown of the system. This was a sick mom who killed her babies. We're human beings and we're all fallible. I think the reason this Thread has gotten heated is that this one really hurts. it's not fair. Everybody loses.

And please don't stop posting or starting threads. We need your angst. Trust me, we do.
 
Missizzy said:
I am certain that the caseworker is in shock and will blame herself forever. My heart is aching for her. I'm also very concerned that this young mother was on a path to disaster that no one could have foretold. We need to look at two statments:

"It appears the mother was receptive, responsive and cooperative," Walker said."

"On Colon's street, neighbor A.P., 34, said she had talked to the woman a couple of times and said she seemed like she was in a daze.


Elyse tested negative for meth. I'm going to believe that she most likely wasn't using or she wouldn't have come back negative. This leads me to believe that there was a major mood disorder going on here. Elyse is 22, the prime age for the onset of schizophrenia and bipolar. Pregnancy and birth are known to typically (not always) exacerbate these disorders.

It's my sense that the domestic violence, two pregnancies close together, PPD, and the onset of a mood disorder leads us to these two discordant statements and to the murder of two innocent babies. I have no doubt that if other neighbors were talked to, they would have vastly varying accounts of Elyse's demeanor.

Notice that one child was in pre-school, probably Head Start. Head Start teachers and administrators work with the child's entire family. Staff are trained to watch for red flags. CPS was called for a rash, for heaven's sake. People were doing their job. I think this woman had a private hell that none of us can imagine and that she did, indeed, disassociate, and kill her babies. I imagine that the neighbor is correct. Elyse was in a daze. Due to a mood swing, she was able to pull it together to look put together for the caseworker and then she swung back into darkness.

kbl--I'm afraid that you are going to have to accept the fact that some things do occur without the waving of red flags. A young couple with domestic violence in the home. Two little boys under three. Probably financial issues. This story plays out hundreds of thousands of times across the US everyday and the babies go to bed safe. This time, they died.

I believe that everyone did everything they could have and should have. Only Elyse knows what went on in her brain and in that bedroom. She could be evil or she could have suffered a horrible break from reality due to stress and hormones. Only she knows. She will bear the pain of remembering her actions until her last breath.



I want to send my kindest support to all of you on this thread who work in child welfare. I've already heard from two dear friends today who are caseworkers. This hurts. I know how hard you fight.
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I totally agree that where mental health is an issue sometimes the signs are not there for many years.
I can not see any red flags on this case at all. Those poor babies had no chance in this world. RIP little angels.

However in general social workers (not in this case - from what I see) are most often overworked, at a meeting, have a BS story to tell.
There is a case here where a mom and brother physically and mentally abused a mental patient for years till they murdered her, social workers were there often, saw burns on her, marks on her, the physical abuse was very obvious. (link to case attached) SO IMHO KBL is right, GENERALY SPEAKING. It is frustrating to see how the system does operate in most cases. I sure am frustrated by it too.
Mother and brother arrested in woman's torture death (NY) - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Just not for this case, this case seems to have evaded any signs. Mental patients are rarely diagnosed early on. This was a very sick young woman. :(

Thanks for your observation Missizzy YOU ARE RIGHT ON....:)
MOO
 
txsvicki said:
Wow, the husband was illegally here and in jail, the rent had to be paid by some agency, plus CPS had been called on them 3 times already. She was accused of doing drugs (negative) and beating her child when it was only a rash but actually going thru some sort of domestic violence. I'd say all that definitely could push a paranoid or very mentally unstable person over the edge. I sure don't want teachers or cps workers deciding parents are nuts and trying to force treatment but in some cases maybe an evaluation would be best.
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Agreed - it can make any person feel overwhelmed, and scared, panicked, paranoid too....I think if one is mentally imbalanced it just far more then the brain can manage. JMO.

As Missizzy said...They can take their kids to a hospital and let someone else have them, and take care of them.

:( sadly I do not trust the foster parenting system either, too often these kids end up abused, raped, or used as a welfare check anyway by some perps.
If she was thinking this way, she thought that ending it for them would be better ...shhudder....:twocents:
 
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