TX - Wrestling Coach Indicted for Sex Assault on Bus

[BillyGoatGruff]

Even if the coach did touch them, I hold the father partly responsible. I'm not sure about 'grooming' the parents to that extent....what I mean is, how stupid do you have to be to allow that just because someone said they were a good guy, or their friend, or bought your kid something? And doesn't it make you wonder what the relationship is between the girl and her dad if she didn't call out to him when she felt scared?

As stupid at it may sound, most predatory child molesters are exceptionally good at manipulating the trust (not earning it) of the parents of their victims, as well as the victims themselves.

 

[TisHerself]

As stupid at it may sound, most predatory child molesters are exceptionally good at manipulating the trust (not earning it) of the parents of their victims, as well as the victims themselves.

I would buy that if you were talking about young children who would be really scared and not know what to do. But I am sorry I am really having a hard time buying that with the fact that we are talking about 16 yr olds here. Considering the fact that one of them knew enough to get up and move away. So that says she knew this was a gaint NO NO, so why did she not open her mouth and say something? AND when she got up and moved away why did the other one not say "Excuse me but I am moving also". Like I said this guy if he did this needs to go away, but something is not right with this picture.

 

[Eoanthropus Dawsoni]

The search warrant asked for his DNA, so we can presume that whatever he was doing, he left a sample on the bus or girls.

 

[Eoanthropus Dawsoni]

They could always sue him personally, but I doubt that he has enough money to make it worth their while, being a teacher and all. I am not saying that the children were not molested. I am saying that I have a hard time believing it happened the way that this is written. Something is not right with all of this story

I don't think the coach was a teacher. It sounds like he had some sort of private coaching business. I have never heard of such a thing, but the Fox article references his company.

 

[jttnewguy]

I'm not saying that I know what happened, or that the guy is guilty. But I also don't think it's right to jump to conclusions that, just because the girls didn't complain loudly and immediately, or that they didn't physically fight the guy off, means that they are lying.

Rape is one of the most underreported crimes in the country. The reason is simple: because it's so easy to blame the victim when the facts are not known (just like some people on this thread are doing), and because the whole process is so demeaning to victims even if the guy is clearly guilty. Even when evidence of rape is overwhelming, the victim's whole sexual history gets dragged before the public, people start questioning what they wore, or what they said, or who they dated in the past, or why they were there at a particular time of day, or whether they had ever been to that person's house before, or whether their skirt was too short, or whether they'd ever drank alcohol or done drugs, or what kind of grades they had in school, or any other character flaw they might have, and every sexual encounter they ever had (or were merely rumored to have had, whether true or not) gets revealed for all the world to see. For some people, the victim has to be perfect and flawless for the allegation to be true, and how many victims are perfect?

Just look at the posts that have already been written in this thread! I consider the members here to be better informed than most people, but look at what we're already saying! Some people here are already jumping to conclusions about this girl, and nobody here knows anything. We all know that the media gets lots of things wrong, and yet instead of wondering whether we're getting the whole story, some posters are already speculating about the girls! People are already blaming the girls -- and this is a coach who HAS A CRIMINAL RECORD!

This dynamic especially so when the allegation involves a man who might be in positions of power and/or respect in the community, such as a teacher or coach. We've all seen what happens: that guy's friends (who might also be powerful pillars of the community) jump to his defense and attack the girl, and the next thing you know, the community circles the wagons around the perpetrator because "he's a good guy" or "he helps out at the homeless shelter" or "he has 4 kids" or "he's been a teacher for 20 years" or whatever else we always read in papers about cases like this. And it's the victim who suddenly finds herself a pariah in her community, whispered about everywhere she goes. And god forbid if she has any kind of sexual history, because then suddenly she's a gold digging *advertiser censored* making a false accusation for money or revenge -- just like some people have already openly speculated - and they've never event met either of the girls or the coach!

And every rape victim knows this. That's exactly why so many girls never tell anyone about being raped, even when the case is strong. Again, I'm not saying I know what happened because I don't, but before we jump to conclusions, maybe we should ask whether it's possible that the girls were surprised at what happened and it took a few seconds for them to realize what was happening (it's not uncommon for robbery victims to freeze either, but we don't blame them for not fighting back), and then when the shock receded, they were either physcially afraid of the guy (who is, after all, wrestling coach with a criminal record, and presumably a physically intimidating person), or possibly afraid that nobody would believe them when they accuse a coach who's popular and powerful, especially when the crime itself was so hard to believe?

 

[spclk]

Jttnewguy,

You bring some very interesting points and I agree with most of what you said. My point is simply that females are taken advantage of much too often and as parents we should be teaching them to scream loud and hard if they are ever in a situation such as this. They may very well have been afraid to speak up and you would assume in a situation such as this they would be safe surrounded by so many people. I read back over all of the post and I don't think anyone is blaming these girls, if anything I see blame for the adults that were supervising. What I also see is that as women, we must empower ourselves to speak up against such abuse and not allow someone to take advantage of us IF it can be prevented, which it seems it could have been in this case.

I remember very well what it was like to be 16 and how concerned you are with what other people think. This could very well have been why they did not speak up. So, again I say to all parents, teach your kids to speak up and value themselves enough to go against convention and peer pressure when put in a situation that makes them uncomfortable. To hell with politeness or what others might think if your life, dignity, or self worth are in danger!

 

[TisHerself]

jttnewguy, No one is accusing these girls of anything, this is a crime sleuthing community we are just offering our different opinions. No one said they were lying, everyone has said this guy should not have been sitting in between them.

I think everyone is well aware that Rape is one of the most under reported crimes, and how terrible it is, no one is disputing that. However all the facts are not out on this story yet so if I or anyone else wants to post their opinions on it then that is what the board is here for. If they have this guy's DNA then he certainly needs to pay for what he did. I still find it odd that both those girls are 16yrs old, one gets up and moves. And the fact that one has her father on the trip.
Now if you think that means I am jumping to conclusions and attacking then I am sorry you are taking it wrong. I simply do not understand how those girls were not prepared to take care of themselves, and know that should not have happened to them. What was her father DOING? apparently their parents did not teach them how to take care of themselves. I am not blaming the girls I am blaming the adults who are in their lives and were negligent.

 

[jttnewguy]

TisHerself and spclk,

Thanks for your comments. I wasn't trying to single you guys out. If anything, I thought your comments were interesting. And after all, I don't know the facts either, maybe you're exactly right about what happened.

What actually made me most upset and led to my rant was a post which now seems to have been deleted from the thread, in which someone wrote (and I'm paraphrasing here since the post isn't there anymore and I can't recall the exact language used) that it was too bad that someone like a coach could lose their job based on nothing more than a verbal complaint from 2 girls who were obviously lying since if they (the writer) had been molested, they would have fought back like hell, and if these girls didn't, then they must be lying about the whole thing. The person even speculated that the girls might have willingly seduced the coach maybe in return for better grades, and were now making up a story because they regretted it afterwards when their parents found out it. Or words to that effect, as I said, the post has been deleted.

Anyway, without that original post, my response is now totally out of context and probably reads like an overreaction. I wish I had used the "quote" function to preserve it, I probably would have looked less foolish that way.

 

[deanws]

TisHerself and spclk,

Thanks for your comments. I wasn't trying to single you guys out. If anything, I thought your comments were interesting. And after all, I don't know the facts either, maybe you're exactly right about what happened.

What actually made me most upset and led to my rant was a post which now seems to have been deleted from the thread, in which someone wrote (and I'm paraphrasing here since the post isn't there anymore and I can't recall the exact language used) that it was too bad that someone like a coach could lose their job based on nothing more than a verbal complaint from 2 girls who were obviously lying since if they (the writer) had been molested, they would have fought back like hell, and if these girls didn't, then they must be lying about the whole thing. The person even speculated that the girls might have willingly seduced the coach maybe in return for better grades, and were now making up a story because they regretted it afterwards when their parents found out it. Or words to that effect, as I said, the post has been deleted.

Anyway, without that original post, my response is now totally out of context and probably reads like an overreaction. I wish I had used the "quote" function to preserve it, I probably would have looked less foolish that way.

I do not believe you look foolish. You stated your opinion without jumping on any one person, and told us why you felt the way you did. Nothing wrong with telling us how you feel. That is what WS is all about. I also would like more facts. I am sure we will hear more. I do think that parts of this story sound fishy.

 

[BillyGoatGruff]

I would buy that if you were talking about young children who would be really scared and not know what to do. But I am sorry I am really having a hard time buying that with the fact that we are talking about 16 yr olds here. Considering the fact that one of them knew enough to get up and move away. So that says she knew this was a gaint NO NO, so why did she not open her mouth and say something? AND when she got up and moved away why did the other one not say "Excuse me but I am moving also". Like I said this guy if he did this needs to go away, but something is not right with this picture.

Since when do 16 years old have the spine to speak out against adults in authority? For that matter, when do most adults?

 

[GlitchWizard]

Since when do 16 years old have the spine to speak out against adults in authority? For that matter, when do most adults?

I think things are different today. I know whenever my daughter feels even remotely threatened, she will be loud and obnoxious to draw attention to the offender (and I'm even talking about a smoker who lights up near her, someone who leers at her too long, etc.) I know my daughter's friends are also outspoken about anything that isn't exactly what they want it to be. I've heard a girl (age 15) say "DO NOT TOUCH ME" to someone who had scooted his leg another inch from where it was so it would rest next to hers.

So, I'm not saying these girls had the fortitude to stand up and walk away - but if they didn't - they are in for a long life of taking crap from people. 16 is not an innocent age anymore. Plus, the girls were wrestlers - not like they are shy little flowers. Not to blame them, but this is the real world and if you don't want to be touched, you have to stop whoever is touching you. Doesn't make him less guilty - but the girls are old enough to handle themselves safely. If not, they need parental supervision at all times.

 

[TisHerself]

TisHerself and spclk,

Thanks for your comments. I wasn't trying to single you guys out. If anything, I thought your comments were interesting. And after all, I don't know the facts either, maybe you're exactly right about what happened.

What actually made me most upset and led to my rant was a post which now seems to have been deleted from the thread, in which someone wrote (and I'm paraphrasing here since the post isn't there anymore and I can't recall the exact language used) that it was too bad that someone like a coach could lose their job based on nothing more than a verbal complaint from 2 girls who were obviously lying since if they (the writer) had been molested, they would have fought back like hell, and if these girls didn't, then they must be lying about the whole thing. The person even speculated that the girls might have willingly seduced the coach maybe in return for better grades, and were now making up a story because they regretted it afterwards when their parents found out it. Or words to that effect, as I said, the post has been deleted.

Anyway, without that original post, my response is now totally out of context and probably reads like an overreaction. I wish I had used the "quote" function to preserve it, I probably would have looked less foolish that way.

I didn't think you were singling me out I knew you weren't, I didn't want you to think anyone here was justifying rape. You don't look foolish not in any way like I said that is why we are here to post our opinions.

 

[TisHerself]

Since when do 16 years old have the spine to speak out against adults in authority? For that matter, when do most adults?

I don't know if you are around many 16yr olds like I am, especially 16yr old girls. But I can tell you that the ones I know and I have asked them about this particular subject. There is no way that they are sitting on a bus and letting a coach sit in between them and molest them.

I cannot print on this board what they have said they would do to him or I would be banned. So yes 16yr old DO have the spine to speak out against that sort of thing. That is why something is not right about this picture to me.

 

[Jeana (DP)]

I'm in agreement with the majority here. Sixteen year olds these days will most definately speak out. In cases where there has been severe mental, sexual and emotional abuse, I can see a child being too scared. However, in this case, her father was on the bus. All she had to do was cause a scene. I'm not placing the blame on the victims, but believe me when I tell you that unless the child's life or the life of her family is in danger, there's a very good chance that she would speak up.

 

[lisag]

No where does it say the father of one fo the two girls invovled was on the bus .. It indicates that A father was on the bus:

According to the federal affidavit, Morris, two other male coaches and the father of one of the wrestlers accompanied the team of 23 female high school wrestlers to Fargo. The team won a junior national championship.

I dont take that as it being the father of one of the two girls... I take that as a father of one of the 23 girls....

I do not think it is impossible that a 16/17 year old would feel intimidated by her coach and not say anything until later...

 

[BillyGoatGruff]

I'm in agreement with the majority here. Sixteen year olds these days will most definately speak out. In cases where there has been severe mental, sexual and emotional abuse, I can see a child being too scared. However, in this case, her father was on the bus. All she had to do was cause a scene. I'm not placing the blame on the victims, but believe me when I tell you that unless the child's life or the life of her family is in danger, there's a very good chance that she would speak up.

Most 16 years olds I've met have have little to no skills when it comes to being confronted by socially inappropriate behavior by people they THINK they know. It's a lot eassier to jump up and scream "Get off me you perv" to someone you don't know at all or view as a social inferior (like some guy on the city bus) And when it comes to dealing with adults who they might have previously had some respect or affection for...well, incest statistics speak for themselves.

The fact the coach pulled this crap in front of the father suggests more about him (the coach) than the girls. it means he's an escalating predator, one who gets as big a thrill out of the potential of being caught as the crime itself, and one who is secure enough in his manipulation of the people around him (whether through social or financial manipulation) that he's confident he won't be caught/exposed, despite the situation. It also suggests this is far from the first time he's done soemthing like this.

 

[CyberLaw]

For starters:

This man was indicted, the evidence was presented before a Grand Jury and they felt there was enough evidence to proceed to charges and trial.

So much for the "lack of credability" on the part of the girls.

Who knows what the coach said to them, if he threatened them or whatever. Who knows what the girls are like, after all some men "target" vulnerable girls to harm. It was not like he did not "pick" these two girls for a reason......

So we have two girls, 16, on a TEAM, the man they all regard as their coach is now molesting them.

So now does she stand up and say in front of everyone including her team mates, stop it.

She is in shock, disbelief, disgust, she does not know what to do, her friends are all around her, what does she do. Time stands still, frozen......

So does she stands up and say: He just molested me....

So you have their "revered" coach and one girl, two girls who claim that he touched them.

Please, at that point who do you think on the bus would believe them or the "well respected" coach......the coach all of the other girls admire and in a position of authority over them.

I can hear it now: What is wrong with you two, I would "NEVER' do that to my girls, especially when the Father of one of the girls in on the bus. Why are you trying to hurt the team, hurt the school and accuse me of doing that. I would never do that never......yada..yada...yada.(insert "perverts" long and lengthly denial here and blame the girls for "lying".) After all he is the adult and their "revered" coach......

So they wait, better then to get the "wrath" on a bus in a closed environment...that you are now travelling with all the girls from the team saying: Why are you lying, why are you staying the things about him, I believe him over you, there is no way our "revered" coach who is in a position of authority is ever going to do "anything" that would harm "his girls" or the team or school, you are lying, everyone knows it. I am going to tell the whole school you are a "*advertiser censored*" and that you want to "harm" our coach and the team and the school....just wait till we get back.

The the "whispers" and rumors and revenge as now everyone "thinks" these girls are "lying".

They just did it for some "reason" to get back at coach, because he did not "insert lame excuse here" and "insert" teenage reasoning here also.

MSN later that night: You know what happened on the way back......she stood up and said that he molested her. Yes, our revered coach. Can you believe that. Neither can I. Can you believe that she said that...about our coach. I know....what a loser she is for lying and getting her "friend" to go along with it. I wonder why she wants to do that to "our coach". Coach would never do that...never......

So they wait, tell whomever and then the man is charged and indicted.

Obviously the Grand Jury believed the girls over the coach and yes, he can file a notice to appear before the Grand Jury......

So I have no doubt, given their age, the environment, the team mates, the coach, the bus, the other players, that the girls did what they felt was right, or told the right people, when they felt they could admit it and tell someone.

Remember "men" like this "count" on their reputation for denial.......and their position of authority for denial.....

I was a bit shocked that no one thought anything of it when a man sits between two girls with a blanket covering them.

But then again, who would have thought that this coach was touching girls.

They probably just glanced over, saw it was "coach" and thought nothing of it.

Now at home or on the way home, the girl breaks down and cries.....sobbing. Dad stops the car...what is wrong honey, tell me, I am your Dad.

Coach molested me on the bus, he touched both of us, I was so afraid Dad of him and the other girls. But now that we are alone, that you are my Dad, I feel O.K. to tell you what happened.......I feel ready to tell you what happened, because now I am "coping" with the disgust and disbelief.

Remember none of us are these 16 year old girls, none of us have their life, so you cannot "subsitute" what one girl would do over another, especially in the context of "adult" thoughts.

 

[Jeana (DP)]

Most 16 years olds I've met have have little to no skills when it comes to being confronted by socially inappropriate behavior by people they THINK they know. It's a lot eassier to jump up and scream "Get off me you perv" to someone you don't know at all or view as a social inferior (like some guy on the city bus) And when it comes to dealing with adults who they might have previously had some respect or affection for...well, incest statistics speak for themselves.

The fact the coach pulled this crap in front of the father suggests more about him (the coach) than the girls. it means he's an escalating predator, one who gets as big a thrill out of the potential of being caught as the crime itself, and one who is secure enough in his manipulation of the people around him (whether through social or financial manipulation) that he's confident he won't be caught/exposed, despite the situation. It also suggests this is far from the first time he's done soemthing like this.

I agree with your opinion of this coach!! Very frightening dude indeed.

I don't know what to say about the teens that you know. Maybe the problem is that they've never been told by adults that its OKAY to say NO to a grown up. I've always taught my kids that no matter who the adult is, if something is going on that they know to be wrong, that they feel uncomfortable with or they just get the "willies," they can certainly say NO with authority and get the hell away from the situation and deal with the reprocussions later on, if you know what I mean. I've also shown them a couple of very common areas of the body that can inflict a great deal of pain if someone gets too close and I'm not talking about the family jewels either!!

 

[CyberLaw]

Where would the girls go on the bus to escape their molestor and the other girls.

No where to go, no where to escape to........

They were trapped........with their team mates and coach.

When they got off, they could escape him and the other "girls" whom are extremely happy that they won an award.

After all the coach would take "some credit" for the award.......and now the other two "girls" are sayng these horrible things about him.

Who do you think would be made out to "be the awful person" at that point on the bus. I am sure the coach would say: Oh please, my hand just "accidently" brushed your leg. You are over reacting, after all we just won an award, I am the coach and I am "your leader". it is just your "imagination".......I am the coach.

Heck some women don't report rapes, and some kids won't report a person in a position of authority for harming them for years, until some time later, sometimes years later........

Like the 25 year old man who was molested for some time by a "dorm monitor" and "well respected" teacher at a prestigious private school.

This happened when he was a lot younger in residence at school....like when he was 12 or 13......now there is a trial after all this time because he finally came forward, after years of "therapy", shame, guilt and blaming himself.

 

[Masterj]

I agree with your opinion of this coach!! Very frightening dude indeed.

I don't know what to say about the teens that you know. Maybe the problem is that they've never been told by adults that its OKAY to say NO to a grown up. I've always taught my kids that no matter who the adult is, if something is going on that they know to be wrong, that they feel uncomfortable with or they just get the "willies," they can certainly say NO with authority and get the hell away from the situation and deal with the reprocussions later on, if you know what I mean. I've also shown them a couple of very common areas of the body that can inflict a great deal of pain if someone gets too close and I'm not talking about the family jewels either!!

With all due respect Jeana, you can teach your children and hope they will respond the way you've taught them, but you will NEVER know how they will react unless they are in that type of situation (which hopefully they never will be). Many posters here seem to think it is just that simple. I can tell you from experience and from the stories I've heard in my support groups that you can never guess how you will respond. My father was a police officer and I was a teenage who had confidence and respect for herself. I KNEW all the things you were supposed to do. Did you ever have that nightmare when something bad happens to you and you open your mouth to yell, but nothing comes out? That is what I experienced. I was taken advantage of by someone I cared a great deal about. Someone whom I respected, someone who knew my parents and whose parents I knew. My aunt was upstairs sleeping the whole time. I was paralyzed with fear and my mind took me to another place while I prayed for the whole thing to be over.

Please stop questioning these girls reactions. It is unfortunate, yes. But it is certainly not odd or indicative of a problem with themselves or their self-esteem. So many people have this horrible attitude like "well, I am not blaming them, but they could have/should have/would have done this." Well guess what - that IS in a sense blaming them.