UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #7

[rightsaidfred]

Would ANY of them let CM babysit their child?

I strongly suspect they've all had social services involvement or children removed themselves... and, like CM, they disagree with SS actions.

I wouldn't trust any of them with my dog, frankly, let alone a baby.

 

[porkypies]

On X. Note the comments by CourtNewsUK - that the jury will not sit today - the court is sitting but nothing can be reported.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1768572861134918075

I don't this this will do her any good at all.
And SS will want all of their names!

 

[rockthecasbah]

I don't this this will do her any good at all.
And SS will want all of their names!

I saw the same lot about a month ago near the Tower of London, "protesting" outside what looked like just a random hotel. Nasty people

 

[ShadowPuppet]

I strongly suspect they've all had social services involvement or children removed themselves... and, like CM, they disagree with SS actions.

I wouldn't trust any of them with my dog, frankly, let alone a baby.

Totally agree re SS involvement, but also people who may not have but have tended to be disconnected from society and run in groups that follow conspiracy theories. Even their signs are inaccurate re. ‘Who made social workers better mothers than mothers?’ etc. Cases like this often get protests outside. I think often there’s a sense of disconnect between cases, so it’s either a social workers’ fault the child died and they weren’t removed quickly enough or the social workers’ fault a child was removed from a happy home (which wasn’t happy or safe at all). It’s never a recognition that a parent simply couldn’t care for that child at that time and that was down to the parent and their circumstances.

Also on CM other children potentially reading about things later, there are minor positives to take from this court case. Yes, CM appeared to fail to achieve safe enough care of Victoria (and assumedly her previous children as they were removed), but they will know that already as the reason they were adopted. BUT she has voiced again and again how much she loved them, how much she wanted them and how desperate she was when they were removed. It’s terrible to hear on the impact on her (though it doesn’t mean it wasn’t necessary), but her children will at least know she had a deep desire to be with them, despite her own circumstances and the way she makes choices ultimately meaning it wasn’t possible (and potentially depending on outcome of case that their sibling died). All of it will be tough to process, but those comments in court will make a positive difference in some way. It means much more to hear a parent was heartbroken than when they are genuinely unpleasant about a child. Contact centres or social workers during meetings will even record comments like this at times because of their importance in relating to the child that their parent did love them (though could not consistently care for them). It will be really tough to read some of her accusations about things that she claimed happened and there’ll potentially be a lot of soul searching about who and what to believe along with asking for records and notes to understand better, but her words about how she felt love for them and the fact she put careful planning into contact ect (even the suggestion she wanted to fight to get them back, though impossible at this point) are likely to be quite important.

 

[Doughy]

I don't this this will do her any good at all.
And SS will want all of their names!

I'm absolutely certain SS will know each & every one of them.

 

[JennieM]

On X. Note the comments by CourtNewsUK - that the jury will not sit today - the court is sitting but nothing can be reported.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1768572861134918075

 

[crespo29]

Has anyone listened to the 9 podcasts called 'World of Secrets', I think it was made by BBC Africa. It is about the cult run by T.B.Joshua called Synagogue church of all nations. One of the objectives of this cult was to allow T.B.Joshua to be a sexual predator of white women who were suffering from sleep deprivation. As cult followers had to have permission to sleep otherwise there were consequences. It is well researched, although it could be shorter. The point I wanted to make here being that if CM stayed six months in the cult compound she would be an easily manipulated and damaged person. I would have thought that her family would have been concerned for her.

 

[SpaceOdyssey]

Has anyone listened to the 9 podcasts called 'World of Secrets', I think it was made by BBC Africa. It is about the cult run by T.B.Joshua called Synagogue church of all nations. One of the objectives of this cult was to allow T.B.Joshua to be a sexual predator of white women who were suffering from sleep deprivation. As cult followers had to have permission to sleep otherwise there were consequences. It is well researched, although it could be shorter. The point I wanted to make here being that if CM stayed six months in the cult compound she would be an easily manipulated and damaged person. I would have thought that her family would have been concerned for her.

Absolutely. The TB Joshua cult (like most other cults) is entirely based on manipulation and control. There is an excellent documentary series on BBC IPlayer which interviews several people who managed to escape, but some were in the clutches of TB Joshua for many, many years.

 

[dotr]

Absolutely. The TB Joshua cult (like most other cults) is entirely based on manipulation and control. There is an excellent documentary series on BBC IPlayer which interviews several people who managed to escape, but some were in the clutches of TB Joshua for many, many years.

''Two young women in Britain watch a VHS tape that will change the course of their lives forever: a Nigerian preacher can apparently heal the sick, cure cancer and AIDS. They decide to visit his church in Lagos to meet him. Joshua invites the teenagers to become his disciples, joining dozens of other young people who live on the church premises and do his every bidding. But life as a disciple isn’t what they imagined.***The award-winning and critically-acclaimed BBC Africa Eye investigations team unravel a shocking journey into a maze of manipulation and terrifying atrocities – perpetrated by one of the most powerful religious figures of the 21st century.''

 

[Baby baby Jane]

Has anyone listened to the 9 podcasts called 'World of Secrets', I think it was made by BBC Africa. It is about the cult run by T.B.Joshua called Synagogue church of all nations. One of the objectives of this cult was to allow T.B.Joshua to be a sexual predator of white women who were suffering from sleep deprivation. As cult followers had to have permission to sleep otherwise there were consequences. It is well researched, although it could be shorter. The point I wanted to make here being that if CM stayed six months in the cult compound she would be an easily manipulated and damaged person. I would have thought that her family would have been concerned for her.

I’ve listen to that and considered her having spent time there.
She never mentions it having an impact, so going to dismiss it as an influence.
I used to think she was vulnerable person, her statements in court have changed my mind.
The more I hear from her at trial, the less I think she is victim of anyone but herself.

 

[bbsaz]

If the experience in the cult stood any chance of being used to mitigate her actions last January, they would have raised it. Which makes me think that it either didn't happen, or the defence knows its not relevant to the charge

 

[bbsaz]

Having listened to the latest Daily Mail podcast, it is very apparent that she is one of those types that if tou say the sky is blue, she will say it is purple. I think this instinct to disagree with anyone and everyone is what has led to her being in this mess. She knows right and everyone else is wrong. And she is that pig headed that she took her newborn into a tent in the midst of winter to prove she is right and everyone else is wrong

 

[Rolypolyoly]

If the experience in the cult stood any chance of being used to mitigate her actions last January, they would have raised it. Which makes me think that it either didn't happen, or the defence knows its not relevant to the charge

Or they didn't want to take the risk of the prosecution bringing up CM's previous experience with being conditioned to withstand sleep deprivation.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I’ve listen to that and considered her having spent time there.
She never mentions it having an impact, so going to dismiss it as an influence.
I used to think she was vulnerable person, her statements in court have changed my mind.
The more I hear from her at trial, the less I think she is victim of anyone but herself.

100% this, IMO she has the exact traits of people who are extraordinarily selfish and entitled as well as having limited capacity to think of others and take responsibility for their own actions. In my vast experience of dealing with people like that, they have two very severe issues - 1) a profound inability to comprehend 'cause and effect' and 'action and consequence' which means they can't think things through logically and rationally and their perceptions are askew; 2) a fundamental inability and / or blanket unwillingness to listen to others - this means they can't be helped because they're not taking in new information;

If CM and / or her representation felt she's been affected by her time spent with the cult, then why has nobody mentioned it?

JMO MOO

 

[Maltesepuppy]

I’ve listen to that and considered her having spent time there.
She never mentions it having an impact, so going to dismiss it as an influence.
I used to think she was vulnerable person, her statements in court have changed my mind.
The more I hear from her at trial, the less I think she is victim of anyone but herself.

I agree. The way she's deflected, gone off track and minimised in police interviews and in court has said a lot about her.
I have never thought of her as vulnerable and my opinion of her has dipped even more when listening her. To me she's come off as arrogant and entitled.
MG didn't come across any better in the police interviews, in my opinion
To me they are as bad as each other, completely feeding off each others arrogance and paranoia that the whole world is against them.
JMO. MOO

 

[Nikynoo]

100% this, IMO she has the exact traits of people who are extraordinarily selfish and entitled as well as having limited capacity to think of others and take responsibility for their own actions. In my vast experience of dealing with people like that, they have two very severe issues - 1) a profound inability to comprehend 'cause and effect' and 'action and consequence' which means they can't think things through logically and rationally and their perceptions are askew; 2) a fundamental inability and / or blanket unwillingness to listen to others - this means they can't be helped because they're not taking in new information;

If CM and / or her representation felt she's been affected by her time spent with the cult, then why has nobody mentioned it?

JMO MOO

Would it not only be relevant for sentencing purposes as part of the pre sentence reporting?

 

[Maltesepuppy]

100% this, IMO she has the exact traits of people who are extraordinarily selfish and entitled as well as having limited capacity to think of others and take responsibility for their own actions. In my vast experience of dealing with people like that, they have two very severe issues - 1) a profound inability to comprehend 'cause and effect' and 'action and consequence' which means they can't think things through logically and rationally and their perceptions are askew; 2) a fundamental inability and / or blanket unwillingness to listen to others - this means they can't be helped because they're not taking in new information;

If CM and / or her representation felt she's been affected by her time spent with the cult, then why has nobody mentioned it?

JMO MOO

Yes. Definitely to the lack of taking responsibility for anything. She has deflected and twisted the facts and questions asked in court to do just that.
She's tried to paint herself as a victim of her "mafia" family and the "corrupt" social services.
She's tried to paint herself as a heroine who gave up her comfortable life for Victoria.
She's implied that the prosecution is narrow-minded to "view things from a western perspective" while at the same time coming off as offensive to other cultures.

I was just thinking yesterday how James Bulger's mother feels guilty that she let go of his hand for a minute. She did what other parents do all the time with incredibly tragic consequences for James and for her. She didn't do anything that she should feel guilty about and yet she does. I get that as parents we feel that we should be able to always protect our children, even though we cannot.

CM in comparison, has taken bad decision after bad decision and they cost Victoria her life. Yet here she is minimising everything and implying that Victoria was really happy because she was with them.
Even when explaining her death she described it "an unfortunate accident". She's even dismissed the total lack of respect of putting rubbish on Victoria's body by saying that "it was some time after" and in any case it doesn't really matter because it was only "her casing" or some drivel like that.
She's now talking about "forgiving herself and loving herself" as if she ever blamed herself for anything
JMO MOO

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I guess she's vulnerable by dint of having this set of character traits that we speculate upon.

However, were such issues proven to be so pervasive, enduring, and life affecting as could be suspected, it probably wouldn't help having that formally named in order to offer up an excuse or ask for mercy or mitigation. It could well be the case that the vast majority of offenders are similarly afflicted with such character traits, or 'personality' as one could call it and therefore, knowing that for sure (were it to be the case) would not help her case at all.

JMO MOO

 

[ShadowPuppet]

I think I’m in between. I think it would be remarkable for a person not to be affected by a cult (and any other trauma suggested) and that that can cause or heighten unsocial features such as focusing on the self, lack of trust, empathy deficit and defiance against authority. However, I also think whatever the trauma, it doesn’t mean a baby doesn’t have a right to a safe and loving upbringing.

I am sure CM was affected, but I don’t think it means she is unable to take the consequences of her actions. There are very few women in prison (or men) who have not experienced trauma, so it has not stopped them having to bear the consequences of their actions. I find MG equally, if not more (undecided, he’s not been heard as much), toxic in his responses that all appear orchestrated to make him appear a victim (at least she sat in a chair). I do wish there had been clearer evidence of how Victoria’s death occurred because her siblings (and their adoptive family/ies) will have such a tough time trying to work out what and who to believe and how they (siblings) want to respond to that in the decisions they make in the future. I feel like some elements are more than clear (and probably would be more so when looked at alongside a SS file), but the cause of death itself remains the least clear part.

Edit to add: Similar thoughts on other offenders there, crossposted with you, @Observe_dont_Absorb

 

[wowiezowie]

Apparently the case is not happening next week and they are back on the 25th March