UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #7

[Observant-ADHD-ENFP-BSc]

Apparently the case is not happening next week and they are back on the 25th March

IIRC, the judge is away

 

[Cardgame]

I think I’m in between. I think it would be remarkable for a person not to be affected by a cult (and any other trauma suggested) and that that can cause or heighten unsocial features such as focusing on the self, lack of trust, empathy deficit and defiance against authority. However, I also think whatever the trauma, it doesn’t mean a baby doesn’t have a right to a safe and loving upbringing.

I am sure CM was affected, but I don’t think it means she is unable to take the consequences of her actions. There are very few women in prison (or men) who have not experienced trauma, so it has not stopped them having to bear the consequences of their actions. I find MG equally, if not more (undecided, he’s not been heard as much), toxic in his responses that all appear orchestrated to make him appear a victim (at least she sat in a chair). I do wish there had been clearer evidence of how Victoria’s death occurred because her siblings (and their adoptive family/ies) will have such a tough time trying to work out what and who to believe and how they (siblings) want to respond to that in the decisions they make in the future. I feel like some elements are more than clear (and probably would be more so when looked at alongside a SS file), but the cause of death itself remains the least clear part.

Edit to add: Similar thoughts on other offenders there, crossposted with you, @Observe_dont_Absorb

The thing, is I'm not sure how much outside third party evidence there is that she was in the cult or how long she spent there. It seems to be by her own report, an interview she did in cosmopolitan, no longer available. There are other people who have been interviewed about what 'would' have happened to her while she was there, but no one who actually corroborated what had happened to her. I'm inclined to take everything she says with a pinch of salt.

 

[EricAcaciaAvenue]

That is a fair point. It is apparent from the documentary that there were a lot of Western visitors who made short stays and did not get the whole handmaiden treatment. My recollection is that it was reported that she spent a couple of years there, but no idea if it is verified.

Also a difficult judgment for the Defence - does adducing evidence about that provoke sympathy, or increase the impression that she is a fruitloop?

 

[Zuleika]

I recall in the early days after her being arrested an ex boyfriend saying in an interview that he remembers her as a caring person who had undergone such a trauma that she refused to speak about it . He's one who posted on her FB page
" miss you "
The part I recall ...maybe in the Cosmopolitan interview ....was her talking about the cult leader telling her " I'm your Daddy now" .

 

[Alyce]

IIRC, the judge is away

Yes, he's doing a 2pm hearing today ( Fiona Beal trial ) then away until 25th

 

[Nikynoo]

I recall in the early days after her being arrested an ex boyfriend saying in an interview that he remembers her as a caring person who had undergone such a trauma that she refused to speak about it . He's one who posted on her FB page
" miss you "
The part I recall ...maybe in the Cosmopolitan interview ....was her talking about the cult leader telling her " I'm your Daddy now" .

That wording and what allegedly happened to disciples there, and the allegations in court, are they related/conflated somehow?

 

[Alyce]

Posting this here as well as on the Fiona Beal thread,because it gives indication of when C & M trial might be finished.
Judge Lucraft is also the Judge for Fiona's trial.

​

Central Criminal Court​	5​	T20237268​	fiona beal​
Details: For Pre-Trial Review - Case Started - 14:06 For Pre-Trial Review - Hearing finished for FIONA BEAL - 14:19 For Pre-Trial Review - Case to be listed for Trial on 02-Apr-2024 - 14:33

www.thelawpages.com

 

[jackal67]

And yet the children will hear it, which is an unfair thing for them to hear, regardless of its veracity.

Hopefully they may have contact with CMs family at some point in the future. They will be able to tell their side of the story to the children

 

[Nikynoo]

Posting this here as well as on the Fiona Beal thread,because it gives indication of when C & M trial might be finished.
Judge Lucraft is also the Judge for Fiona's trial.

​

Central Criminal Court​	5​	T20237268​	fiona beal​
Details: For Pre-Trial Review - Case Started - 14:06 For Pre-Trial Review - Hearing finished for FIONA BEAL - 14:19 For Pre-Trial Review - Case to be listed for Trial on 02-Apr-2024 - 14:33

www.thelawpages.com

Another week then? Next week?

 

[Alyce]

Another week then? Next week?

Doesn't seem long enough does it - and it will be a 4 day week because of Easter.

Perhaps Judge Lucraft has reassigned Fiona's trial to another Judge ?

 

[Nikynoo]

Doesn't seem long enough does it - and it will be a 4 day week because of Easter.

Perhaps Judge Lucraft has reassigned Fiona's trial to another Judge ?

If the defence witnesses are ready then perhaps the prosecution can wrap up their cross examination the first day, witnesses the next, closing statements and summing up and then instruct the jury? It’s possible, because once the jury is out, the judge is kind of free. Is it jury selection for the other case on the 2nd?

 

[Alyce]

If the defence witnesses are ready then perhaps the prosecution can wrap up their cross examination the first day, witnesses the next, closing statements and summing up and then instruct the jury? It’s possible, because once the jury is out, the judge is kind of free. Is it jury selection for the other case on the 2nd?

Yes, should just be Jury selection on the Tuesday. Although these days, with the backlog, I suppose they might go straight into openings as well.

 

[Alyce]

Episode 4 - a very good update from last week.

Also confirms that the Court will sit only on Monday ( 25 ) and Tuesday ( 26 ) next week

Fresh From The Old Bailey on Apple Podcasts

True Crime · 2024

podcasts.apple.com

 

[Yellowbelly]

Episode 4 - a very good update from last week.

Also confirms that the Court will sit only on Monday ( 25 ) and Tuesday ( 26 ) next week

Fresh From The Old Bailey on Apple Podcasts

True Crime · 2024

podcasts.apple.com

Are they really going to get the conclusion of the cross examination, any defence witness, judge's summing up and verdicts done in two days. I can't see it. This is rolling on into April.

 

[Alyce]

Are they really going to get the conclusion of the cross examination, any defence witness, judge's summing up and verdicts done in two days. I can't see it. This is rolling on into April.

After 2 days next week, there is then a one week break and it starts again on April 8

credit to @bobbymkii for this info

 

[Nikynoo]

After 2 days next week, there is then a one week break and it starts again on April 8

credit to @bobbymkii for this info


View attachment 491741

That's like comparing apples and oranges IMO.

 

[Nikynoo]

Episode 4 - a very good update from last week.

Also confirms that the Court will sit only on Monday ( 25 ) and Tuesday ( 26 ) next week

Fresh From The Old Bailey on Apple Podcasts

True Crime · 2024

podcasts.apple.com

Thanks for this Alyce. I listened to this episode and also went back and listened to the episode concerning the children. I found it useful because the timeline in my head was a little jumbled.

I learnt that:

• SS intervention for birth of first child in 2017. Parent and baby unit, warned twice about falling asleep with child on her chest and the increased risks to the child if she did so.
• Subsequent sign off from SS approx six months later in 2018 - CM was a 'patient and loving mother', no concerns from SS.
• Wardship application made by Napier Marten in relation to the first two children in 2019
• Second engagement of SS because of wardship application, also 2019

My question, why did NM make the wardship application when he and CM had been estranged for some years?

 

[EricAcaciaAvenue]

I guess (a) grandparents may care about their grandchildren even if estranged from their direct offspring, (b) there may be some relevance to family trusts etc if the grandchildren are within the class of beneficiaries of those trusts.

 

[Alyce]

Thanks for this Alyce. I listened to this episode and also went back and listened to the episode concerning the children. I found it useful because the timeline in my head was a little jumbled.

I learnt that:

• SS intervention for birth of first child in 2017. Parent and baby unit, warned twice about falling asleep with child on her chest and the increased risks to the child if she did so.
• Subsequent sign off from SS approx six months later in 2018 - CM was a 'patient and loving mother', no concerns from SS.
• Wardship application made by Napier Marten in relation to the first two children in 2019
• Second engagement of SS because of wardship application, also 2019

My question, why did NM make the wardship application when he and CM had been estranged for some years?

Was it perhaps the DV incident that triggered Napier to make the application ?

Although - IMO - it is rather surprising for a parent who basically deserted his own 4 children, all aged under 10, to feel he would be the best person to have wardship over his grandchildren.

 

[Nikynoo]

I guess (a) grandparents may care about their grandchildren even if estranged from their direct offspring, (b) there may be some relevance to family trusts etc if the grandchildren are within the class of beneficiaries of those trusts.

IMO, (a) should result in concerns being raised with SS, (b) seems overkill for trust issues, you would change or clarify the class of beneficiaries if needed through trust documents?