VERDICT WATCH UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #8

[Justoneoftheguests]

Is count 4 (manslaughter) the more serious charge compared to count 3 (causing or allowing the death of a child) or is it the other way around?

With count 3, do they have to be found guilty on both point 3 and 4 to be guilty?

 

[Yellowbelly]

Is count 4 (manslaughter) the more serious charge compared to count 3 (causing or allowing the death of a child) or is it the other way around?

With count 3, do they have to be found guilty on both point 3 and 4 to be guilty?

Manslaughter is the most serious charge they face. On Count 3, the jury has to be able to answer yes to questions 3 and 4 in order to return a guilty verdict.

 

[Maryanna]

Maximum prison sentences for the following offences are:

Manslaughter: life
Perversion of course of justice: life
Allowing child's death: life
Cruelty to child: 14 years
Concealing birth: 3 years

 

[Scorpiette]

Jury out in Constance Marten trial – Court News UK

Hope this link works.
Jury has asked for longer days.
@Courtnewsuk

 

[JennieM]

Jury out in Constance Marten trial – Court News UK

Hope this link works.
Jury has asked for longer days.

It says for members only.

 

[bobbymkii]

Is count 4 (manslaughter) the more serious charge compared to count 3 (causing or allowing the death of a child) or is it the other way around?

With count 3, do they have to be found guilty on both point 3 and 4 to be guilty?

yes and yes

 

[Nikynoo]

Manslaughter is the most serious charge they face. On Count 3, the jury has to be able to answer yes to questions 3 and 4 in order to return a guilty verdict.

Are you sure about that?

 

[Maryanna]

Jury out in Constance Marten trial – Court News UK

Hope this link works.
Jury has asked for longer days.
@Courtnewsuk

What did the judge say? Presumably "No", given that ushers and other court staff would need to work longer hours to accommodate the request. This is a highly unusual jury.

 

[Alyce]

Jury out in Constance Marten trial – Court News UK

Hope this link works.
Jury has asked for longer days.
@Courtnewsuk

Hopefully by working longer hours, they aim to get the verdicts done by Friday at the latest. And avoid going into yet another week, with a BH included.

 

[JennieM]

What did the judge say? Presumably "No", given that ushers and other court staff would need to work longer hours to accommodate the request. This is a highly unusual jury.

By longer days, they could well mean normal days - as opposed to 30-minute days.

 

[JennieM]

I also think this has been a highly patient jury.

 

[Maryanna]

I also think this has been a highly patient jury.

I don't. I wouldn't like to bet on there not having been a single occasion during this trial when a juror has sought to ask a witness a question and all of the lawyers in the room have thought "In the name of God couldn't you just have waited, because it was obvious to all of us that the barrister was going to come round to asking that?"

Hopefully by working longer hours, they aim to get the verdicts done by Friday at the latest. And avoid going into yet another week, with a BH included.

If they tell the judge that's how they're thinking, he will tell them they shouldn't be thinking in terms of aiming to reach a verdict by a certain future time.

 

[JennieM]

The jury began deliberating on verdicts on Tuesday afternoon.

On Wednesday morning, Judge Mark Lucraft KC sent the 11-strong jury out again to continue deliberating on verdicts.

At 4.30pm, the jury was sent home and told to return to resume deliberations at 11am on Thursday.

Jury in Constance Marten baby death trial resume deliberations

Marten and her partner deny manslaughter by gross negligence and a string of other charges.

www.thecomet.net

 

[Telltale]

You know once this is all wrapped up, I wonder if it will come out they are massive smackheads or something - and it was restricted in the media then not allowed to be brought up in trial.

I've not seen anything that really alludes to it, but it would explain so much about their lifestyle and standard of living. As well as what the majority of her monthly payouts were getting spent on for the last decade.

I don't think I really believe that is what's going on here, but I wouldn't be surprised either.

 

[Lucy6226]

You know once this is all wrapped up, I wonder if it will come out they are massive smackheads or something - and it was restricted in the media then not allowed to be brought up in trial.

I've not seen anything that really alludes to it, but it would explain so much about their lifestyle and standard of living. As well as what the majority of her monthly payouts were getting spent on for the last decade.

I don't think I really believe that is what's going on here, but I wouldn't be surprised either.

There has to be something, we know they weren't paying rent when living in rented accommodation....so where exactly was all that trust fund allowance going? There has to be some sort of addiction in place surely?

Moo

 

[Maltesepuppy]

You know once this is all wrapped up, I wonder if it will come out they are massive smackheads or something - and it was restricted in the media then not allowed to be brought up in trial.

I've not seen anything that really alludes to it, but it would explain so much about their lifestyle and standard of living. As well as what the majority of her monthly payouts were getting spent on for the last decade.

I don't think I really believe that is what's going on here, but I wouldn't be surprised either.

I'd be curious to get the version from the family but I very much doubt that they will give one. They will not want to air their dirty laundry for once plus they will not want to damage their fractured relationship with CM
Still, I'd love to hear their side.

 

[BreadnLumpit]

I'd be curious to get the version from the family but I very much doubt that they will give one. They will not want to air their dirty laundry for once plus they will not want to damage their fractured relationship with CM
Still, I'd love to hear their side.

I suppose there's an outside chance that an ex member of staff might shed some light on the backstory.

 

[InstantCoffee]

I like this jury... they ask a lot of questions, want to work longer days to get the job done... I have a feeling they will come to a decision most of us will agree with. I also think they will return it by tomorrow if at all possible.

 

[Maryanna]

I like this jury... they ask a lot of questions, want to work longer days to get the job done... I have a feeling they will come to a decision most of us will agree with. I also think they will return it by tomorrow if at all possible.

A lot of questions is an understatement. On average there was one question every 20 minutes or so during the time when there was a witness in the box.

Bear in mind that any juror may ask for a question to be asked. It's extremely unlikely that of the >150 questions that were asked, every juror asked roughly the same number.

Asking such a huge number of questions, probably smashing the existing record for an English criminal trial and going down in legal and Old Bailey history, probably made things go on for longer. That's more likely than one or more geniuses on the jury having the knack of brilliantly getting to the point very fast when barristers were beating around the bush and would have taken twice as long or not managed at all, and when even the judge didn't notice how good a certain question would have been. (Incidentally I wouldn't say this if the number of questions had only been 10 or 15.)

Nor do I think wanting to work longer days, which would have meant many other people working longer days too, in order to get the job done faster rather than slower, is something to be admired.

We should wish all the jurors strength in considering the evidence fairly and avoiding confirmation bias. Let it take as long as it has to.

I trust the refreshments served are to their satisfaction

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

You know once this is all wrapped up, I wonder if it will come out they are massive smackheads or something - and it was restricted in the media then not allowed to be brought up in trial.

I've not seen anything that really alludes to it, but it would explain so much about their lifestyle and standard of living. As well as what the majority of her monthly payouts were getting spent on for the last decade.

I don't think I really believe that is what's going on here, but I wouldn't be surprised either.

I imagined this at first - that only serious drug use could explain the chaos and other issues - but there has been flat zero evidence or suggestion of this and therefore I don't think that is the case whatsoever, surprisingly. JMO