GUILTY UK - Joanna Yeates, 25, Clifton, Bristol, 17 Dec 2010 #13

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The search for Osama was as nothing compared to that for the pizza.
Oh GOOOOOO awaYYYYYY

I'm cryin here! Lord above .... STOP IT. I think i've just paralysed

Bwahaha ... just hahahah .... just upset my dogs, family LORD above! wfgodot ... this is ridic (hic) u-lous. Man oh man.

Ahhh. No way. Just gotta take 5. hahahahah. Hubby looks ..... bwahahaha rather ... "serious"

Someone - please ban cherwell and notsosure and also wfgodot. They;re illegal! This is insane. This is an extreme case.

Oh my gaaaawd
 
So he arrives home on his bike at 7 pm, is told by LL that GR has gone away for the weekend. This triggers something in VT's mind. He sees that there are no lights on next-door, so nobody home. What are his thoughts? Has he been waiting for an opportunity to do something while the flat is empty, or does he get the idea to go round when he hears JY arrive home? I'm now thinking that he wouldn't have the courage to go round and ring the doorbell. The other option is risky though. Could he be sure enough that he wouldn't be disturbed?

Phew notsosure. Thanks for the wake up call. I screamed laughing ....
No I don't think he'd have .... rung the doorbell if he thot no-one home. Or even to "test"

I think he assumed (wrongggg) that Jo may have been with GR and ... seized the opportunity to do whatever he decided to do. Maybe .... he was going thru her personal clothing in her bedroom? Maybe he hid and Jo saw him? Maybe he was fixated with her from only seeing her .... and wanted to be "close" by getting some of her clothes - undergarments? That's mild compared to what I really, really think was going on in his head....

Nevertheless, I believe Jo stumbled upon this man, unexpectedly ... and even if there was nothing nefarious ... he felt compromised. He perceived a real threat. He went to extinguish that threat.

Basically - and in essence, I think JY may have caught him unawares; so he pounced to shut her up. I stick with the stalking/spying theory in my heart - but wont elaborate here due to determined responses previously.

And ... ending far more collectively .... best .... Polk.


I
 
Thanks for the much-needed laughs, PolkSaladAnnie! :D
 
Thanks for the much-needed laughs, PolkSaladAnnie! :D

notsure. Phew. I gotta tell you .... I have stepped away from this laptop ... kid you not ....and I have leaned over and held my knees .... LAUGHING! My better half is concerned. Cherwell .... made me SHRIEK - the moment I realised the power (or not) of those stupid words "manhunt ... launched for .... oh god .... a PIZZZZAAAAAHHH"

FBI's Most Wated! Mazorella Pizza. The tears are still falling.

Usually we attack posters; fight for victima/human/Death Penalty rights - or whatever ...

.... but cherwell actually *finished* me. I'll never get over this. I'm imagining LE, serious mode, mouths right against their walkie-talkies ... "Control, control - this is Field-Unit 7 ... no pizza passed this way. Repeat .... NO pizza passed this way. Over and out"

And then helicopters and ..... I'm finsihed again .... can't type .... and choppers and dogs ..... s e n t ..... to find ........ said ..... PIZZZZAAAAH

Oh god. Never woulod I have dreamed an anonynous poster .... would FLOOR me.

Finally gives true meaning to RPTFLMAO! Truly gotta sign out. This is stupid.

:floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh:
 
The fact that VT's flat is now on the market almost certainly means that no connecting door or spy hole was involved, otherwise the prosecution would want the jury to see it.

That would seem to be the case but what are your thoughts on them all knowing he was going to plead manslaughter and thinking it would stick, so there would be no need for the jury to view VTs flat. But because the prosecution have managed to take the case further they have other intentions, as now the jury will be looking over Jos flat and the garden was mentioned. So could there now be a warning to the prospective tenant that a jury will shortly be snooping around the premises and if so would Vts flat be let before the trial or could there be conditions whereby until the trial is over the flat would not be let. To me it seems a bit too quick to put VTs flat on the market ,disrespectful in a way.
Can someone phone up and see if they can move in next week and then we will know for certain.
 
The fugitive, destination death row, he encountered a pizza running away from the vicinity, a cheesey pizza with one arm.

Seriously though, the police may have found the pizza or it's wrapping and it could be a vital part of the evidence.
 


Hello suspicious minds ;)

Do you happen to post on Tabak thread @ HLM's McCann Site on the "How & Why Did Vincent Tabak Murder Jo?" thread?
...


Indeed 'tis me I do post on other site too, well spotted PolkSaladAnnie !! Dont get as much time as I'd like to post but very interesting reading on both of these sites.

I guess until October it will go quiet again on both, there has been a flurry of activity since last weeks events, as expected, but as we wont have much more to go on than we already have for another 5 months I dont suppose there will be much to discuss that hasnt already been covered.

Will continue reading though and adding to the debates when I think I have anything relevant.

See you here or on t'other Polk.

Best ................ Suspicious Minds
 
Indeed 'tis me I do post on other site too, well spotted PolkSaladAnnie !! Dont get as much time as I'd like to post but very interesting reading on both of these sites.

I guess until October it will go quiet again on both, there has been a flurry of activity since last weeks events, as expected, but as we wont have much more to go on than we already have for another 5 months I dont suppose there will be much to discuss that hasnt already been covered.

Will continue reading though and adding to the debates when I think I have anything relevant.

See you here or on t'other Polk.

Best ................ Suspicious Minds

Tee Hee ... GOOD MORNING and hello. Yep, it's the detective in me, m'darlin. Skills of a long-time sleuther. And we've got more in common, Suspicious Minds ... this is really an eye opener: hehehe

BOTH ... of us have named our aliases in here after Elvis Presley Songs! How about that!

Here's more of my latest thoughts:

Yes … Tabak’s spare bedroom: if you look at those floorplans, is bang up against Jo’s bathroom and bedroom. Was this his office? Sitting there working at night – on his laptop/pc… The eye of the camera would be very small … . definitely not a cctv set-up.

As I wrote before, burglars can get in. Tabak can get in. But indeed, my theory runs along the lines that *either* he assumed Jo may have followed GR – or would be out until much later that night. He may have been inside her flat … OR Jo discovered the lens. Whatever, I don't think he thought she would be home so soon!

Suffice to say my belief is (making my hair stand on end, I’ll add) Tabak was doing something nefarious. More than making a pass. He’s super intelligent. Why kill someone you came on too heavy with?

It would be his word against hers. No rape was evidenced. But “a sexual motive” means he may have got his rocks off … watching.

Hey, I may be way off the beaten track. Tabak may have been meddling in her apartment … I’ve just never been satisfied that Jo arrives home and within what … 15 – 20 mins is dead or unconscious? No time to even finish a cider?

And he didn’t take the unopened bottle? Booze was not his goal. Self protection was. Is it probable? We don’t know. Possible? Yes.

Few months ago I recall writing”

Eliminate the possibilities – you get probabilities. It’s *possible* he was drunk, yes. Tho I say *probably* not. He rode home from work that evening; he’s a very big, strong, fit man …. and there was not really enough time to get “black-out-drunk” by time Jo returned … then have the wherewithal to borrow a car, move the body, be captured on cctv, etc.

When people are that sozzled, they’re very clumsy – and Jo was not a feint lass. Arm-wrestling, rowing, etc.

So, no, I personally won’t excuse the man with “accidental drunken behavour”. And I trust the Crown are not buying it, either!

Irrefutable evidence? Could be right there on his laptop. Frame by frame. When he moved out (didn’t like that move, myself), he may have tried to hide stuff in loft at E’s place in Aberdeen Road. Just guessing. But now 2 more women are brought into a dark corner. Lord, let’s trust this not to be the case.

This trial, I reckon, will be held in camera; there may be a gag order to protect the identities of others, if that’s the case (referring to lewd & lascivious acts). Just as rape victims identities are protected I went back to why bail was denied. One of the reasons … “witnesses at risk of threat”. Jo, if she was about to become a witness, was murdered. Others?

So, back then, I created a “point-system” in my head to reach means, motive and opportunity:

His job = people flow monitor
Expertise = PhD in … literally … watching people
Location = couldn’t get any closer to Jo & GR's flat
Window of opportunity = setting it up in their absence
Objective = perverse sexual gratification

Then I added in:

His actions
His deception
Moving out (distancing himself)
All the reasons bail was denied

And other nuances. Indeed, here I am … wondering how this “lovely, nice, quiet, influential, affluent, super-intelligent, sportsman” could do this. Simply because those qualities do not make him immune to other lesser qualities.

There’s a first time for everything. BUT …. is this the first time (if my hunch is on the right track)? We don’t and won’t know that. He was caught in the headlights. Bang.
 
Tee Hee ... GOOD MORNING and hello. Yep, it's the detective in me, m'darlin. Skills of a long-time sleuther. And we've got more in common, Suspicious Minds ... this is really an eye opener: hehehe

BOTH ... of us have named our aliases in here after Elvis Presley Songs! How about that!

Morning PolkSaladAnnie, Oh my goodness, do you no I hadnt realise we had both done that until you pointed it out !!!!!!!!!

I absolutely do think that VT was already inside the flat when JY reached home, as I have said earlier he either thought she wouldnt be home until really late in eveing as he knew it was fri nite xmas drinks with colleagues, or that she had gone to Sheffield with GR.

Regards the proximity of the bedroom of JY to VT, as has been said on other site, it was my thinking but didnt voice it!! The walls apparently very thin and one could hear everything (according to previous occupants) if VT had this fixation with JY, he would have been able to hear their bedroom activity and all the more so if he was obsessed with JY he would have made a point of listening more intently and then presuming that she wouldnt be around for a while and he had the opportunity to enter the flat, by whatever means, he couldnt resist the opportunity ................... but he never planned on being caught out and when he was ............... well we all know the outcome of that.

One thing always on my mind - bit of another Elvis song there Polk :)
is how the parents so quickly came to the conclusion that JY had been abducted, I wonder how the flat was left and what gave them that certainty so soon on entering flat ?? Apologies if this has been covered and I have missed it but havent had time to read up on all posts much as I would like to !!!
 
Morning PolkSaladAnnie, Oh my goodness, do you no I hadnt realise we had both done that until you pointed it out !!!!!!!!!

I absolutely do think that VT was already inside the flat when JY reached home, as I have said earlier he either thought she wouldnt be home until really late in eveing as he knew it was fri nite xmas drinks with colleagues, or that she had gone to Sheffield with GR.

Regards the proximity of the bedroom of JY to VT, as has been said on other site, it was my thinking but didnt voice it!! The walls apparently very thin and one could hear everything (according to previous occupants) if VT had this fixation with JY, he would have been able to hear their bedroom activity and all the more so if he was obsessed with JY he would have made a point of listening more intently and then presuming that she wouldnt be around for a while and he had the opportunity to enter the flat, by whatever means, he couldnt resist the opportunity ................... but he never planned on being caught out and when he was ............... well we all know the outcome of that.

One thing always on my mind - bit of another Elvis song there Polk :)
is how the parents so quickly came to the conclusion that JY had been abducted, I wonder how the flat was left and what gave them that certainty so soon on entering flat ?? Apologies if this has been covered and I have missed it but havent had time to read up on all posts much as I would like to !!!

Jo was *going to spend the weekend cooking and cleaning*. Indeed, the *state of the flat* proved she had done neither. Nothing was stolen; the cat was there ... her belongings, phone, keys ... but not Jo. She was plucked out of the safety and comfort of her own home. My post on here - think number 255 (ish) gave m views earlier in the year ...

The defense’s only option is manslaughter. As far as I am concerned, we (Joe Public) don’t really have a right to the details – despite wanting them. If this man was even half a human blood cell, once being shown the evidence - after all he confessed to the responsibility of Jo's death …. he could have SAVED Jo’s family and GR the ordeal of a lengthy, emotional, details and exceptionally distressing trial. ESPECIALLY as the Crown are not buying his plea!

VT could SAVE Jo's loved ones the immense build up to trial in the interim. He could have pleaded guilty to his offenses …. but until the end, it is all about HIMSELF! HIS needs. HIS lies. His BS....

That’s why, atho I don’t see him offing himself through depression sorrow or loneliness – because psychopaths don’t care/feel … I do see him doing it as a final “up yours” to society. Hence ... suicide watch. Huntley tried the same thing. Fred West actually did it.

What’s VT got ahead of him now? NOTHING. What does he care for Jo and her family right now? NOTHING. Again, I say he blames Jo for the situation he’s in. Not himself.

Grrrrrrrr! Throw away that key already, please, Your Honour!
 
The fugitive, destination death row, he encountered a pizza running away from the vicinity, a cheesey pizza with one arm.

Seriously though, the police may have found the pizza or it's wrapping and it could be a vital part of the evidence.

Believe you me, whiterum. I laughed like I have never ever ... laughed on this site in my entire stay here. Man oh man ...

Apologies to anyone else for such ridiculous posts.

You're quite right. They may have found it, indeed. In Aberdeen Road? Who knows. But they did catch the one element most crucial to the entire case:

VT!!

And he's admitted it. Why woulod he if the evidence is not overwhelming? B/c he knew he couldn't. So he opts to save his butt ... "accident".

Nope. Not 'aving none of it, m'lud.
 
I think that the concept of premediated murder is largely a US thing. And even then the use of the word 'premediated' doesn't neccessarily mean that there must have been a cunning plan of some kind.

As far as England and Wales is concerned; a murder is commited when someone of sound mind, unlawfully kills, any reasonable creature, in being, under the Queen's Peace, with intent to kill or cause grievous bodily harm. And as far as the distinction between murder and manslaughter is concerned, it is the question of intent that really matters, and intent can be formed in a matter of seconds. (Or the blinking of an eye.) So where a defendant denies murder but admits manslaughter, the court will be looking at what evidence exists as to the state of mind of the defendant, during those few seconds if necessary.

It's not yet known exactly what route VT's defence are going to take as far as the manslaughter claim is concerned. It could be any number of things. For one thing, we have no idea as to VT's mental health history. Or indeed much information at all about his personal life, other than the bare facts of his academic/work record.

Great post aneurin. Didn't mean to ignore you last night - it was all cherwell's fault.

Your last paragraph is of tantamount importance, I believe. How could this be an accident ... is their task; an ominous one, methinks - especially as the Crown are not buying it. Adamantly so. Has he committed similar offences? We don't know ... but there has to be a first time.

One thing is for sure. This man would not be where he is if the Crown did not have irrefutable evidence. He was backed into a corner. Whatever it was …. was there in black and white (or techni-colour, who knows?)

VT may have become preoccupied. with Jo. Studied her over a brief period … study turned to curiosity; curiosity to desire; desire to lust … could plainly see Jo and Greg were a “done deal” … so he decided to “have” her in a far more nefarious fashion. Unbeknown to (and prior to becoming – Britain’s “girl”), Jo … he set into action … pacing her.

And therein lies the horror than saw him remanded: no bail & put on suicide watch.

That he acted the way he did? Trashed her rock solid frozen? Allowed CJ to take a battering? Flew out of the country? Summonsed (control) a family meeting? Says he didn't know her? Distance, distance ... distance. Caught.
 
On another site - a poster astutely pointed out that TB didn't call for assistance. Excellent observation, that was.

This is something I *bet* will come into play – and will be put to VT at trial:

Crown: “Did you at any time call for any assistance or try to help Joanna Yeates?”

Defendant: (*duh-uh*) "No, I did not."

Accident? Manslaughter? If we accidentally knock over someone in the street (perish the thought), we call for assistance unless we have something bad to hide – like drink-driving, drugs, etc. That’s just one area where VT’s defense will stumble.
 
On another site - a poster astutely pointed out that TB didn't call for assistance. Excellent observation, that was.

This is something I *bet* will come into play – and will be put to VT at trial:

Crown: “Did you at any time call for any assistance or try to help Joanna Yeates?”

Defendant: (*duh-uh*) "No, I did not."

Accident? Manslaughter? If we accidentally knock over someone in the street (perish the thought), we call for assistance unless we have something bad to hide – like drink-driving, drugs, etc. That’s just one area where VT’s defense will stumble.

I would imagine this was the or one of the reasons anyway that the m/s plea was rejected and they are going for murder charge.
 
I've wondered if the Pizza went missing in it's Tesco carrier bag or was it unpacked and then taken, I don't think the Police have said. Another poster has said that it would provide a timeline, which is possibly why it dissappeared.
Another thought is that by leaving the cider it set a scene of a second person being 'entertained' and maybe it was poured by VT. Or did the Pizza go missing because somebody had the munchies and didn't think it would be missed.
Whatever the story somebody was on the ball and not off his face on drugs or alcohol when the possible staging took place....so many questions.
 
I've wondered if the Pizza went missing in it's Tesco carrier bag or was it unpacked and then taken, I don't think the Police have said. Another poster has said that it would provide a timeline, which is possibly why it dissappeared.
Another thought is that by leaving the cider it set a scene of a second person being 'entertained' and maybe it was poured by VT. Or did the Pizza go missing because somebody had the munchies and didn't think it would be missed.
Whatever the story somebody was on the ball and not off his face on drugs or alcohol when the possible staging took place....so many questions.

Hello Robin Hood :)

Nice to interact again. Yes, I entered that post way back ... suggesting that if the pizza was left, forensics would be able to determine the food-decay and that would squash an alibi. So it had to go. Basically, as raw as it sounds .... the perp took it because he also knew no-one else was going to eat it. Why waste a great pizza (sick). He'd been told by CJ that GR was up country - he'd just killed Jo. So ... as callous an act it was - he took it for himself. Goes to mindset, eh?

Indeed, indeed. I rule out a drunken tete-a-tete ... required quick, alert, skillfull thinking, planning, disposing - etc.
 
Just a thought regarding suicide watch. I have read of several accounts (most recently, "A Rip in Heaven" by J. Cummins) where a suspect was requested to be placed on suicide watch (by his lawyer, after the parents expressed concern that he would be killed or hurt by someone in the cell) not because (s)he would be a danger to her/himself but to prevent the other inmates from taking their anger out on the suspect.

It could be that VT was on suicide watch to make sure he survived (or remained unharmed) until the trial - as many have said, JY touched many hearts and feelings were running high. We've all heard about ODC and prison hierarchy, so I wouldn't be surprised if that were the case.

Of course we don't know, and most likely never will.

[On a side note, and OT, the book mentioned above is about a real double-murder and its aftermath, and the suspect in question was not only innocent of the crime itself but also a victim of it.]
 
Just a thought regarding suicide watch. I have read of several accounts (most recently, "A Rip in Heaven" by J. Cummins) where a suspect was requested to be placed on suicide watch (by his lawyer, after the parents expressed concern that he would be killed or hurt by someone in the cell) not because (s)he would be a danger to her/himself but to prevent the other inmates from taking their anger out on the suspect.

It could be that VT was on suicide watch to make sure he survived (or remained unharmed) until the trial - as many have said, JY touched many hearts and feelings were running high. We've all heard about ODC and prison hierarchy, so I wouldn't be surprised if that were the case.

Of course we don't know, and most likely never will.

[On a side note, and OT, the book mentioned above is about a real double-murder and its aftermath, and the suspect in question was not only innocent of the crime itself but also a victim of it.]

Thanks for this, Firefly...I'd *love* to read that book!

Interesting as the are varying reasons for s/watch. I feel he may be on s/watch. Not b/c he’s lonely or remorseful (IMO) … but to stop the trial going ahead. A few people hang themselves / commit suicide in jail as a last act of defiance. It's their last call – still their control.

As in refusing to go down … so to speak; not wanting to let others see they’ve “heard & earned” their comeuppance, so to say. A gross “middle-finger” to society. I may be entirely wrong ... but I think that's why Huntley tried to off himself in the lead up to his trial. Anger / revenge at being caught.

Just my take …
 
Hello Robin Hood :)

Nice to interact again. Yes, I entered that post way back ... suggesting that if the pizza was left, forensics would be able to determine the food-decay and that would squash an alibi. So it had to go. Basically, as raw as it sounds .... the perp took it because he also knew no-one else was going to eat it. Why waste a great pizza (sick). He'd been told by CJ that GR was up country - he'd just killed Jo. So ... as callous an act it was - he took it for himself. Goes to mindset, eh?

Indeed, indeed. I rule out a drunken tete-a-tete ... required quick, alert, skillfull thinking, planning, disposing - etc.

Hi again PSA.... the munchies (as you possibly know) is induced by the use of Cannabis, folk appear to crave sugary foods and carbs, some list Pizza as a favourite when stoned. It's possible the scene was 'set' some time after the act. Maybe TM wasn't back that night or as another poster said, came home and she herself was asleep when much of the scene was cleaned.

It is possible the Pizza was quickly gobbled down and then when VT (if he WAS stoned) decided to clean up later it was too late, it had gone. One of his props was missing, maybe some was left with DNA on it.


I think there were possibly two stages to the crime here, stage one was when Jo was killed and stage two when the scene was set and Jo was removed. I think VT had a few hours between the two to start to think straight. I think it's possible Jo let him in after he came round with the idea of Xmas celebrations knowing GR was away. Again it's possible he found Jo's keys left in the door as she went for post. Either way I don't think myself he was in there waiting, if he was it was only for a second, JMO.

What might be interesting is if the Police have any peeping tom type reports in the area where VT used to live, he's a big bloke (tall) so if there was I'm sure the Police have studied them.
I just don't get this being a one off, more like an escallation.
 
Hi PolkSaladAnnie,

The book is available on Amazon etc. if you want to get a copy. It is about the double murder of Julie and Robin Kerry, and their cousin Thomas Cummins (the author's brother). The Kerry sisters took their cousin to a bridge (known suicide location to the locals apparently) to show him a poem they had painted on the bridge. On the way back, they were attacked by four guys; the sisters were sexually assaulted and pushed off the bridge, the cousin was made to jump off the bridge. He survived the fall. Julie Kerry's body was found three weeks later, Robin Kerry's body hasn't been found to date. She is still listed on doenetwork.org and some other sites; she's listed here in Profiles of Missing Children, I think, and the thread is closed. Thomas Cummins was wrongly suspected of the murder because they wouldn't believe his story and thought he couldn't have survived the fall. Thankfully, the four scumbags who did it were caught.

Here's a link to the author's website: http://www.ripinheaven.com/

I know this is off-topic - apologies. Back to JY now.
 
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