UT -Susan Powell, 28, West Valley City, 6 Dec 2009 - #6

[mom_of_five]

I wonder what would have happened if nobody showed up to help Josh pack and he had to spend a week or two o in that house with Susan's memory and ghost. I bet she would have convinced him to tell the truth.

I agree.

Wouldn't it have been nice if no one showed up to help him pack and, instead, starting looking for Susan?! :banghead:

 

[Curious Me]

Once, my newly adopted dog ran off and got lost. I could not rest until I found him. I drove around for days, asking strangers if they'd seen him, and actually got news he had been to a school ten blocks away. It was like my own investigation. Lucky for me, the dog found his way home, and scratched at the door in the pouring rain.

Another time, my bird got startled outside and flew off my shoulder over the canyon down to the next street. Most people might think it impossible that I'd find this little bird if I were to look. I did look, going up and down the streets calling his name. I did find him. He was sitting on someone's lawn looking terrified.

The whole point of my sharing is to stress that when a loved one is missing you won't be able to rest until they are found. Looking and searching is what you have to do.

 

[DomCasual]

Once, my newly adopted dog ran off and got lost. I could not rest until I found him. I drove around for days, asking strangers if they'd seen him, and actually got news he had been to a school ten blocks away. It was like my own investigation. Lucky for me, the dog found his way home, and scratched at the door in the pouring rain.

Another time, my bird got startled outside and flew off my shoulder over the canyon down to the next street. Most people might think it impossible that I'd find this little bird if I were to look. I did look, going up and down the streets calling his name. I did find him. He was sitting on someone's lawn looking terrified.

The whole point of my sharing is to stress that when a loved one is missing you won't be able to rest until they are found. Looking and searching is what you have to do.

Okay, I understand that. So, you're saying that you think it's mostly Susan's family and friends that should be searching.

So, what about the second part of my question. If you could get inside their heads, what justification do you think they have for not searching?

 

[mom_of_five]

I understand the innocent-until-proven-guilty viewpoint. Agreed. So why does anyone have to take sides at all? Why do their friends have to either support Josh or look for Susan? Why can't Josh and Susan's friends support Josh (if they believe him) AND look for Susan? I'm stumped.

 

[Curious Me]

Okay, so let's follow that line. Let me ask you a few questions.

1) Who do you think should be searching? The general public? Susan's family? Law enforcement?

2) If you could guess, what is the main reason people like the Coxes are not searching? Specifically? Do they not love her as much as some families love their kids? Are they lazy?

I'm not trying to sound pretentious. I guess I just have a total disconnect on some of that thinking, and I really want to understand it.

Answers:
(1) I would think LE would be able to encourage searching in specific areas. Being LE they must have a better idea of likely places to search. If not, why not? Please tell me they have gathered some useful information.

(2) Guess why family and friends are not into searching? I have no idea! That's the problem. I've even considered they already found a her body and are just waiting for the testing results. Honestly, I do understand that her family and friends must have some real good reason, but what is beyond me.

Now, it's your turn, DomCasual. Why are you so sure not searching is perfectly logical? I know about all the limitations, but really, is it right to give people the idea that searching is totally useless when Susan is still missing. Like many of you, I'm just a concerned citizen trying to make sense of this, and it isn't making sense to me. That's my complaint.

 

[mom_of_five]

This is why I believe a large number of Susan's friends and church goers are not out searching for her.

I think Kiirsi has thrown out an unsubstantiated theory that anti mormons are possibly responsible for her disappearance and people have ran with that idea and feel it is worthless to try to look for her. I think the anti mormon part of this rumor gives it legs because people are more likely to believe that because of persecution of the church and peoples in the past.

But wouldn't that make her friends and family (and other Mormons) all the more determined to find her? :waitasec:

 

[DomCasual]

This is why I believe a large number of Susan's friends and church goers are not out searching for her.

I think Kiirsi has thrown out an unsubstantiated theory that anti mormons are possibly responsible for her disappearance and people have ran with that idea and feel it is worthless to try to look for her. I think the anti mormon part of this rumor gives it legs because people are more likely to believe that because of persecution of the church and peoples in the past.

Interesting. Has she actually said that's what she thinks? Or, has she just said that she has reason to believe Susan might be out of state?

I'll be honest. I think that theory is highly unlikely. I've been in the LDS Church for more than 20 years, including two years on an LDS mission. I've known lots of anti-Mormons, including almost everyone in my immediate family. I've never heard of that happening. If she really believes that, then I would really question her credibility.

 

[Dr.Fessel]

But wouldn't that make her friends and family (and other Mormons) all the more determined to find her? :waitasec:

Yes that is why they are using the FB and getting the flyers out. They believe she is alive in another state and you just cant drive to another state and look for a kidnapper.

 

[mom_of_five]

Yes that is why they are using the FB and getting the flyers out. They believe she is alive in another state and you just cant drive to another state and look for a kidnapper.

Ah, I'm with you now .

If I were Mormon, I'd be a) busting my you-know-what to find her and who took her and/or b) terrified that I or a loved one would be next.

IMO, Josh knows something. He either killed her (intentionally or not) or he conspired to have her kidnapped and 'deprogrammed'. At this point, unfortunately, my belief is the former. I pray that belief turns out to be incorrect. raying:

 

[Heatherly30]

With all due respect, it can't be rocket science. LE must know more than they're telling us. If they searched for Elizabeth Smart in the snow, I would imagine they would search for Susan in the snow, IF they thought she was still out there. They must know where she is, or what's going on, or something deeper that we can't even fathom. It sucks for us who are in the dark, it really does. I wish I knew what they know, and it drives me insane, but they have reasons for keeping it confidential. But it still sucks!

Now, this about Kiirsi...did she say or infer that Susan is being deprogrammed?

There are so many possibilities...

 

[impatientredhead]

Answers:
(1) I would think LE would be able to encourage searching in specific areas. Being LE they must have a better idea of likely places to search. If not, why not? Please tell me they have gathered some useful information.

(2) Guess why family and friends are not into searching? I have no idea! That's the problem. I've even considered they already found a her body and are just waiting for the testing results. Honestly, I do understand that her family and friends must have some real good reason, but what is beyond me.

Now, it's your turn, DomCasual. Why are you so sure not searching is perfectly logical? I know about all the limitations, but really, is it right to give people the idea that searching is totally useless when Susan is still missing. Like many of you, I'm just a concerned citizen trying to make sense of this, and it isn't making sense to me. That's my complaint.

LE is not going to provide locations and tell civilians it is a their suggestion that they go completely untrained into the wilderness and endanger themselves and possibly trample a crime scene. But mostly endanger themselves, liability, not going to happen.

It is also an active investigation so they are not going to share what they know with any family members (been there done that). They may *know* what happened and they may *know* certain family members are absolutely not involved, but you don't know who is passing what info along to who that feeds it to the suspect. Or it ends up in the press. They are not going to endanger their investigation.

And lastly there is no specific place to search. He is not located in one spot for an hour via pings of a cellphone. There are no witnesses that pulled him out of a ditch. Based on his story and the time lapse there are hundreds of square miles of wilderness in which her body could be. They cannot use their limited manhour/resources doing that big of a wildcard search. It is not possible. Do you know how many searchers, hours, and dogs that would take to even begin?

This is not a toddler that possibly wander out the door and you do a gridsearch starting from home. In the Casey Anthony case their were people that said the vast majority of moms that kill their kid dump the body with in a couple of miles of the house. That radius encompassed ten square miles. That wasn't a feasible grid search. This certainly isn't.

Assuming their is a fraction of truth in his story and he dumped her in the mountains the church and family is probably not technically equipped to do a wintertime search with even a modicum of safety.

Now in the Casey Anthony case had the family actually wanted to organize a grid search with their home as the epicenter it would have been a suburban neighborhood in warm weather. They could have initiated that and there was good cause to ask why they weren't, but in this case there is not epicenter to start from. Not at this point.

 

[DomCasual]

Now, it's your turn, DomCasual. Why are you so sure not searching is perfectly logical? I know about all the limitations, but really, is it right to give people the idea that searching is totally useless when Susan is still missing. Like many of you, I'm just a concerned citizen trying to make sense of this, and it isn't making sense to me. That's my complaint.

Thanks for answering.

I can only speak for myself about the searching thing.

I would have absolutely no idea where to begin with something like that. Even if you just focused on the area he says he was camping. It's a huge area, and most of it wouldn't even be accessible without snow mobiles or snow shoes. It's about three hours or so from where I live, so it's not like you could just head out there for an afternoon. And I'm like anyone else. I have a family to support. I have kids that need support. I have a marriage that could always use more attention.

There are lots of things I'd like to do with my time - things I never get time for. If I all of a sudden had a couple days with none of the aforementioned obligations, I would probably find other things to do - things that, IMO, would have a more immediate, positive impact than looking for a person that can no longer be helped or saved.

And lastly, I'm quite sure there are valid reasons the family and LE aren't scouring the area. I would bet that we'll know those reasons, at some point. I think it's telling that people like Chuck Cox and his law enforcement friends aren't out looking. They have more vested interest in a search than anyone else, and they have contacts that would allow them to search somewhat effectively. Yet, they themselves aren't searching. I don't think that's out of incompetence of laziness. I think that's because they believe a search wouldn't produce anything.

 

[harleysnana]

This is why I believe a large number of Susan's friends and church goers are not out searching for her.

I think Kiirsi has thrown out an unsubstantiated theory that anti mormons are possibly responsible for her disappearance and people have ran with that idea and feel it is worthless to try to look for her. I think the anti mormon part of this rumor gives it legs because people are more likely to believe that because of persecution of the church and peoples in the past.

Or it could be as simple as LE is NOT supporting any outside searches.
In FACT they are discouraging them!

.... I think we all should sit back and let LE do their job.
I trust LE as well as Susan's friends and family are doing
what is in the best interest of Susan!

For some reason LE do not want people searching!
Maybe we can sleuth their reason instead of going over and over
and over again how some disagree with it!

 

[AmandaReckonwith]

I get the point - there's a slew of mines to search, and with weather conditions and the terrain it makes it near impossible to find Susan. So, let's just forget about it and go have some hot chocolate. How sad is that?

Not just sad, it is pathetic.

 

[harleysnana]

With all due respect, it can't be rocket science. LE must know more than they're telling us. If they searched for Elizabeth Smart in the snow, I would imagine they would search for Susan in the snow, IF they thought she was still out there. They must know where she is, or what's going on, or something deeper that we can't even fathom. It sucks for us who are in the dark, it really does. I wish I knew what they know, and it drives me insane, but they have reasons for keeping it confidential. But it still sucks!

Now, this about Kiirsi...did she say or infer that Susan is being deprogrammed? There are so many possibilities...

BBM.... No she did not say that! That is something that was started here.

 

[Dr.Fessel]

Does anyone remember Kiirsi saying she got ahold of Josh and he was driving around before he came home that evening?

 

[teacher 3]

Yes, I did see that a search is going to take place. That made me feel better, that at least some people will be looking. This case is very disturbing. I feel that Susan didn't stand a chance with that husband of hers and I only wish she could have gotten out of his clutches before it came to this. And I only have scorn for his father; I think he is an instigator (sp) sending his comments about the LDS church group. that just stirred the pot. there are just so many things wrong with this case;

 

[Curious Me]

Or it could be as simple as LE is NOT supporting any outside searches.
In FACT they are discouraging them!

.... I think we all should sit back and let LE do their job.
I trust LE as well as Susan's friends and family are doing
what is in the best interest of Susan!

For some reason LE do not want people searching!
Maybe we can sleuth their reason instead of going over and over
and over again how some disagree with it!

I have to agree with there must be a reason. Does anyone have any idea why?

 

[kiki the parrot]

But Kiki, with all due respect - who is not standing up to judge Josh? Who is not enforcing law and order? Letting LE do their job is not the same as condoning his behavior. Ten people going to help him move does not make them accomplices in Susan's murder.

Seriously, I think you've misjudged this. I'll tell you a few things I know for sure:

1) If LE announced, "We're going to do a search in such-and-such an area. We need everyone possible there" - there would be hundreds upon hundreds of people there. It happened with Elizabeth Smart. It happened with Lori Hacking. It would be at least that with Susan Powell. Nobody is taking Josh's side over Susan's. He has been deservedly vilified here.

As it is, nobody would have any idea where to start. Take a look at that list of mines I posted. Those are the big ones. I have a lot of bandwidth, and it still took fifteen seconds or so for that list to load. And as it says at the top of the list, those are just "some" of Utah's mines. And mines are just one type of place Susan could be hidden.

2) If Josh had been charged at this point, there wouldn't even be ten or so people that would come out to his house to help him. I don't know any of those people. But I bet you that they're great people, with great intentions. I bet Kiirsi is a great person, with great intentions. It's easy to play armchair QB here and say, "Those gullible fools! How could they help a murderer?" I'm guessing each of them have fairly complicated reasons for it - and mixed in each of those reasons is likely an innocent-until-proven-guilty approach. It's naive, maybe. But it's also the silly, naive approach that protects innocent people from being falsely charged. This isn't Salem.

If, and hopefully when, Josh is charged, you'll see that all stop. You won't see any public proclamations in his favor. You won't hear about it, but he will immediately be excommunicated from the LDS Church. You'll see him get served the same justice in front of a Utah jury that you would see in front of juries anywhere else in the US.

I should keep my mouth shut. But some of your comments almost make it sound as if people in his area are doing potlucks to raise money for his defense.

(bbm) I have no desire to go round and round on this w you--I've made myself clear numerous times. But since you directed this at me personally (and have mischaracterized my position) I will respond. From there I really pray that we can just accept we have a well established difference of opinion--and stay on topic.

My most recent post re "judging" was in direct response to the post I quoted (suzi's) who seem to have somehow been left w the general impression that we fall into one of 2 groups (paraphrasing): those who believe in meting out judgment on earth, and those who believe in "eternal judgment," thus leave everything to God Hopefully that's been cleared up.

It *was* the reason offered at one point (by people who either assisted JP or supported this) that they would go in hopes of picking up on some behavioral clues, seeing what they could find out etc (read the previous thread), and it's me who suggested that is LE's job. "Curiosity killed the cat" IIRC. That reason was offered in conjunction w "helping your friend," and I said that's not being what *I* call a friend. "Far better to let him take responsibility for his choices to not cooperate and leave." We were given "love your enemy," to which I've likewise responded. I see more support for JP (the presumed perp who won't oblige LE or cooperate) than I do for Susan (the victim). Then we heard that must be their way of honoring Susan. To help the man who in all probability murdered her? If that sits alright w you that's on you. I just don't accept these as legitimate reasons to assist the POI in their faithful churchmember's disappearance. We've seen JP having much support. Susan, not so much.

To say they must give him unbridled, unequivocal support and every benefit simply because he's not yet been officially charged--all while fully knowing circumstances: of his preposterous alibis which LE SAY do not pan out, can NOT be confirmed and which he REFUSES to verify; he's lawyered up and not working w LE; he's never asked for help in finding Susan nor plead for his wife's safe return; and now in just four weeks' time he's packed up w the boys and moved out of state w evidently no expectation of Susan returning--well seems a bit legalistic and pretentious IMO. Hopefully you understand a bit more how I feel, if not don't worry about it we just see things differently--and will likely continue to do so. JMO

arrot:

 

[DomCasual]

Hopefully you understand a bit more how I feel, if not don't worry about it we just see things differently--and will likely continue to do so. JMO

arrot:

Your post made me smile. If this was a face-to-face conversation, this would be where I would just smile, nod my head, and say, "Yes, ma'am."

And I hope you take that as positive as I mean it.