VA - Hannah Elizabeth Graham, 18, Charlottesville, 13 Sept 2014 - #16 *ARREST*

[AzPistonsGirl]

I came to this site because of Hannah, but with a lot of emotional baggage because I have a daughter at UVA. I was relieved when JM was arrested. But since then, after my emotions died down and my logical side kicked in many aspects of this case are raising a lot of questions for me.

Bessie told us not to talk of mental health issues because there is no evidence he's been diagnosed with such. Those of us that said JM doesn't seem all there mentally based it on actual video of his appearance in a courtroom but are told we shouldn't speculate on that. Yet, posters here theorize that he's a textbook narcissist and that's ok. Narcissism falls under mental health issues, fyi.

I don't discount the possibility that JM killed Hannah and hid her body, but I also don't discount that he may have only dropped her off wherever she wanted to go and something happened to her after that. There were those 3 other assaults that same weekend in the area Hannah was supposedly almost, or lost, at.

Posters bring up Bundy, Gacey, etc. What percentage of rapists or murderers are on that level? I imagine that's rare, more rare than women that claim they were raped when they weren't.

I don't discount that his incident at LU could have been consensual but the girl felt guilty the next day (Christian religions are good at guilt-I know, I'm R.C.) and claimed it was rape. That does happen.

I live in NY, and Tawana Brawley was a big thing here, and that forever changed the way I look at accusations of rape. I'm sorry if that offends, but that's what I meant by an earlier post in which I said not all females are angels.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm seeing WS in a new light. It does take on a bit of the witch hunt here and has gotten caught up in the media frenzy. I'm going to dial back on the media reports, and wait for just the facts, ma'am.

You may all be 100% correct about this case, time will tell. But even if JM is the monster you think he is, I still have empathy for him. For if I lose empathy, I am a monster too.

I hope they find Hannah alive. If not, I hope they find her and her family can get closure.

Peace.

I could not thank this more than once or I would have. Thank YOU for sharing here. I echo your sentiments re empathy.

 

[Saccas85]

Has anyone wondered if the name George Carr is some kind of sick clue than JLM is giving us? I looked it up and George Carr, former mayor of Cville, died in 1886. He is buried at Riverview Cemetary in east Cville by the Rivanna River and Riverview Park. Also, the Carr family farm is reported to be about 5 miles northwest of town. During the Revolution, Hessian prisoners had been encamped there.

This seems out of left field, but it may be worth a look at both of those spots.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Funny you say that, and very good sleuthing! For some reason the other night I was laying in bed and the Mickey Shunick case popped into my mind, and about her bring 1st placed in a cemetery. I looked up cemeteries around cville, and there are many very close to the area of interest. It's a long shot, but never hurts to look.

 

[liebling]

I don't discount that his incident at LU could have been consensual but the girl felt guilty the next day (Christian religions are good at guilt-I know, I'm R.C.) and claimed it was rape. That does happen.

I grew up in a very small, very religious town and I actually saw a lot of the opposite--a girl was forcibly raped, then declined to press charges because of the humiliation of publicly being outed as a non-virgin (either simply by virtue of having been raped, or because of previous sexual activity). Feminine virtue was an obnoxiously big deal, and the possibility of being labeled a *advertiser censored* and socially shunned in such an isolated, close-knit community was, for some of my friends, worse than surviving rape. So...no charges filed, because the girl won't testify.

Not saying false accusations don't happen; they do. But keep in mind, the pressure can push the other way.

 

[ToodieWorm]

Sure you can--as long as you are not on the jury

And I doubt when he is brought before a jury that that will be allowed to come into play (But, I'm not a lawyer).
I've served on several juries and have the ability to be open minded, logical and judge based only on facts.

 

[Le Singe]

http://www.hlntv.com/video/2014/09/26/friend-hannah-graham-suspect-hes-innocent

Friend of Hannah Graham suspect claims JM is innocent

despite the flat out wrong title if you read the article its a life long friend of LJM doesn't even mention knowing her.

 

[cady]

I don't think everyone here is on a witch hunt. There is plenty of blame here to spread around, and right now with what LE has released, there is no direct evidence that he harmed her directly. Just as you say. However, in these cases, it's usually pretty straight forward what happened. The focus should be on the vicitm and loved ones first, as well as the safety of the general population, IMO, and I believe the forum does stress this.

The problem is that he is involved in this case and he's not giving any info. If Hannah's hurt somewhere, he has some info, which he's not giving.

I agree he could have run in fear, but he could have made some statement through his attorney to give LE a chance to find Hannah. That he didn't is really not good at all.

JMO His chances of conviction are much greater if he divulges her whereabouts. LE still has no body. JMO

 

[Dushi]

I could not thank this more than once or I would have. Thank YOU for sharing here. I echo your sentiments re empathy.

I do second this

 

[RSC]

I missed a bunch of pages. Could you expand on this George Carr thing? Did JM speak about someone with that name? (If so, can you link for me?)

Funny you say that, and very good sleuthing! For some reason the other night I was laying in bed and the Mickey Shunick case popped into my mind, and about her bring 1st placed in a cemetery. I looked up cemeteries around cville, and there are many very close to the area of interest. It's a long shot, but never hurts to look.

 

[PresleySyndrome]

In case it hasn't been mentioned, press conference at 3!

Trying to find the link...anyone

 

[cady]

Funny you say that, and very good sleuthing! For some reason the other night I was laying in bed and the Mickey Shunick case popped into my mind, and about her bring 1st placed in a cemetery. I looked up cemeteries around cville, and there are many very close to the area of interest. It's a long shot, but never hurts to look.

Read the Daily Mail article where JM's grandmothers full name is revealed.........JMO

 

[RSC]

I agree with you re: the jury. And all joking aside, I should be clear--I only brought the former rape accusation up in regards to someone saying that they can't see him as a serial rapist.

I do NOT believe a former accusation that was dropped should be used to determine guilt here. However, if JM DID harm HG, THEN I think that it is a fairly logical conclusion to think that his prior accusation may have, indeed, been true and that he is, indeed, a serial rapist (or more). Does that make sense?

And I doubt when he is brought before a jury that that will be allowed to come into play (But, I'm not a lawyer).
I've served on several juries and have the ability to be open minded, logical and judge based only on facts.

 

[daily]

A few thoughts: For those who are still waiting on "hard evidence" - I am just curious, what do you think or how do you think crimes were solved back in days prior to DNA? A girl goes missing without a trace back in 1905. Did LE just always get the wrong guy? Was there a point to even having investigators back then? I mean, how did they do this prior to cell phone, video, dna, invisible blood droplets? hmmm...eye witness accounts of the last person to be seen with the alive person coupled with circumstantial evidence....that was it...but yet, trials still happened...people were arrested, tried and sentenced. It went on this way for hundreds, thousands of years. Was it all in vain, was it all wrong? I doubt it. Stop overthinking everything.

2nd thought: I wonder if some people just have such a hard time with this case is because they feel weird that they too could have been fooled by JM. They see him in the videos, walking, talking, high five-ing people, and they think, "Hmmm, this is a guy I might have accepted a ride from, perhaps." I think people don't like to believe (even to the very end) someone that looks like a person they would trust could be involved. Just wondering. I know this will be shot down and much will be said about people being innocent until proven guilty. And I would counter that with a statement that this is a forum for discussion and ideas, maybe even fantasy. I am not on a jury. I am using this forum to think aloud, as many others who want to solve this case. I can say, "I think he is guilty." all day long if I want. I can say, "I think he may be a serial killer." all day long if I want. You asking questions such as "Did I miss something...when did this guy become a serial killer, when was hard evidence presented?" Those questions make me laugh aloud. This is a discussion forum and idea forum. We hope anything that pops in our mind might help find HG in our small fantasy world.

And finally....this guy might could have fooled some of you at the bar...he would not have fooled me.

Many times they did (and still do) get the wrong guy. Towns could be smaller, the victim more closely known, and convictions could be obtained on emotion ('are you REALLY going to let her killer get away with murder?) rather than hard evidence. Prosecutors are rewarded for convictions, not 'getting the right guy'. If you follow the innocence project, many of them were convicted and serving long sentences with poor evidence (essentially, what evidence we know about JM, an eye witness who claimed they saw them). There are studies showing eye witness accounts are unreliable. Also, when evidence is found that proves they are innocent, it can be hidden from the defense.

Currently (unless something has changed) the police have not even said that she definitively got in his car, or was in his house. They are trying not to commit to saying what they believe happened, just trust them that evidence exists. We know he had his hand around her waist, so there may be DNA (hair, skin) in his car or on his things. If he HAS her clothing in his car or house, then your talking about a whole 'nother ball game, but they haven't actually said that.

The police haven't listed ANY evidence yet. I don't feel it is overthinking to wait to see one piece.

 

[RSC]

Link?

Read the Daily Mail article where JM's grandmothers full name is revealed.........JMO

 

[astridxx]

Not so similar to Jameis Winston's case.

See, you say stuff like this but when I brought up "friends know you best" you tried to argue that JLM was comparable to Scott Peterson... ??

 

[Cortne]

i don't think anything he does is by accident. He's already been suspected of rape in the past. If he did kill hg he did it on purpose so she couldn't tell on him. Since seeing and learning all of this new info about this guy. In my eyes he is a predator and a very dangerous one who has gotten off the hook one too many times.

amen!!

 

[jamicat]

Im not sure how that supports JM being innocent or this being a one off thing. Many men are accused of rape. And many men are actually guilty. Let's take Jameis Winston:

"On April 16, 2014, The New York Times reported irregularities in the rape investigation involving Winston. Though a medical examination of the victim revealed injuries consistent with sexual trauma – including bruises and semen – and the victim would later identify Winston by name as her attacker, Tallahassee police reportedly never obtained a DNA sample from Winston, never interviewed him, nor attempted to obtain video of the alleged assault taken by Seminoles teammate Chris Casher."
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jameis_Winston

Probably guilty.

But regardless, here we have a case where a man was expelled from college due to rape allegations. He was also charged with assault and larceny in a separate case, convicted of trespassing in yet another case, was reportedly aggressively man handling both women and a man the night Hannah disappeared, refused to talk to police about Hannah, recklessly evaded police who were following him, fled the state when a warrant was issued for reckless driving and has been charged with abduction with intent to defile.

Not so similar to Jameis Winston's case.

It is true that those even with a history and record of a certain activity, it doesn't mean that they did any given deed. Not everyone who has a past continues in their ways. It's possible that someone like JM who was accused of rape in college, got expelled and lost quite a bit due to that charge, would learn from what happened whether he did it or not, and act accordingly to make sure he is not in such a predicament again.

However, the way it has statistically worked, is that those who have done so in the past, tend to continue the behavior. When there is a murder, an assault, an crime, LE always checks out who with a record for the same might be around, because it does often pan out With JM, he was given a lot of Chances in that he was not accused in a court of law, run through the system of being on trial. He was given a lot of passes on things that could have given him a record. IT does say something about him that he has this laundry list of issues. It's not typical One thing maybe, the traffic things, maybe, but all of that and then the comments from women who have known him saying he is someone on the prowl. Plus, then the way he as acted through all of this. Doesn't look good. Statistically, the chances are becoming smaller that he did not have something directly to do with Hannah's disappearance.

Still, until all the evidence is put on the table and the case goes to trial, we don't know. In the Alexis Murphy case, where her body never came up, there was a whole lot of evidence that the DA and LE did not release until the trial. The same could happen here. Or perhaps there is not enough evidence, and JM will walk free. But right now it's not looking good for him.

 

[steelman]

despite the flat out wrong title if you read the article its a life long friend of LJM doesn't even mention knowing her.

Friend of Hannah Graham suspect

Title looks right to me

 

[astridxx]

The police haven't listed ANY evidence yet. I don't feel it is overthinking to wait to see one piece.

This.

Sure, he could be charged with abduction with intent to defile, simply because he had his arm around her (abduction) and may have been heard saying sexual stuff or whatever (intent to defile). I have yet to see a murder charge levied against him, and I feel like if they HAD that evidence, that would imply he murdered her, he would've been charged with that already.

 

[RSC]

Other than a few random comments, I have not seen a witch hunt at all.
JM was the last known person with a missing teenager and has not been willing to help LE try to find her. He endangered others on a high speed chase. And then he became a fugitive from the law after an arrest warrant was issued and he ran.

His actions AFTER the night in question mean he is a criminal (and unsavory person) regardless of what happened on that night. I don't see not liking or trusting him as a "witch hunt."

I came to this site because of Hannah, but with a lot of emotional baggage because I have a daughter at UVA. I was relieved when JM was arrested. But since then, after my emotions died down and my logical side kicked in many aspects of this case are raising a lot of questions for me.

Bessie told us not to talk of mental health issues because there is no evidence he's been diagnosed with such. Those of us that said JM doesn't seem all there mentally based it on actual video of his appearance in a courtroom but are told we shouldn't speculate on that. Yet, posters here theorize that he's a textbook narcissist and that's ok. Narcissism falls under mental health issues, fyi.

I don't discount the possibility that JM killed Hannah and hid her body, but I also don't discount that he may have only dropped her off wherever she wanted to go and something happened to her after that. There were those 3 other assaults that same weekend in the area Hannah was supposedly almost, or lost, at.

Posters bring up Bundy, Gacey, etc. What percentage of rapists or murderers are on that level? I imagine that's rare, more rare than women that claim they were raped when they weren't.

I don't discount that his incident at LU could have been consensual but the girl felt guilty the next day (Christian religions are good at guilt-I know, I'm R.C.) and claimed it was rape. That does happen.

I live in NY, and Tawana Brawley was a big thing here, and that forever changed the way I look at accusations of rape. I'm sorry if that offends, but that's what I meant by an earlier post in which I said not all females are angels.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm seeing WS in a new light. It does take on a bit of the witch hunt here and has gotten caught up in the media frenzy. I'm going to dial back on the media reports, and wait for just the facts, ma'am.

You may all be 100% correct about this case, time will tell. But even if JM is the monster you think he is, I still have empathy for him. For if I lose empathy, I am a monster too.

I hope they find Hannah alive. If not, I hope they find her and her family can get closure.

Peace.

 

[frrlk]

A post from the findhannahgraham facebook page, from a bartender who served JM (and witnessed some of his strange behavior). hope this is ok to post!

https://www.facebook.com/FindHannahGraham/posts/716118478458403

You know, I wouldn't believe everything you find on the internetz. I did some searching for this person and there's nothing at all out there besides this FB page, which looks like it was set up about 14 hours ago. Just sayin' it looked a little hinky to me.