Was Burke Involved # 5

[Ambitioned]

Interesting that John tells responding officers that he read to the kids, Later he changes the story saying he was misunderstood and that he had put the kids to bed, then read to himself. In the Smit interview there is no mention of reading. Deception at every corner with these people.

Fascinating!!

Burke Ramsey on Dr. Phil show

“Yeah, I had some toy that I wanted to put together. I remember being downstairs after everyone was in bed … wanting to get this thing out,”

“Did you use the flashlight so you wouldn’t be seen?” Dr. Phil followed up.

“I don’t remember. I just remember being downstairs with this toy,” Burke replied.

Alsoooooo, after reading all that you posted (thanks Meara), IIRC PR said somewhere else she was up late packing for the trip, did she not??

 

[Ambitioned]

No kidding. But that melatonin - he makes sure to mention that every time. The original product placement guy. Maybe he'll write another book and call it The Other Side of Sleep.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[andreww]

Fascinating!!

Burke Ramsey on Dr. Phil show

“Yeah, I had some toy that I wanted to put together. I remember being downstairs after everyone was in bed … wanting to get this thing out,”

“Did you use the flashlight so you wouldn’t be seen?” Dr. Phil followed up.

“I don’t remember. I just remember being downstairs with this toy,” Burke replied.

Alsoooooo, after reading all that you posted (thanks Meara), IIRC PR said somewhere else she was up late packing for the trip, did she not??

That's what I was recalling as well, Patsy was up last.


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[Tortoise]

Tortoise, what you're suggesting is not within John's official narrative.

When Burke was downstairs alone playing, he could have believed everyone else had gone to bed.

 

[Meara]

That's what I was recalling as well, Patsy was up last.


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This seems to be a myth that has grown up around the case. I just rechecked PR's recorded statements and she also indicates she was in bed first, and JR followed very shortly after. The time she spent getting ready for the trip overlaps with the time JR spent playing with BR. If anyone has any other original sources that say otherwise, please do post them.

 

[Meara]

When Burke was downstairs alone playing, he could have believed everyone else had gone to bed.

According to both parents, they had gone to bed.

 

[DrollForeignFaction]

When Burke was downstairs alone playing, he could have believed everyone else had gone to bed.

And forgot that his dad came down, spent 10-20 minutes putting the toy together with him, then tucked him in afterwards? Even if he thought they were asleep at first clearly John was awake at some point if John's version is correct.

From what I recall of the Dr. Phil interview, Burke's story is a flipped version of John's: John takes him upstairs (using the flashlight for some reason) and gets him ready for bed, then Burke goes downstairs for the toy. Unfortunately Dr. Phil had neither the knowledge nor the inclination to press him on this so it's hard to say what's going on here.


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[ElleElle]

From Lin Wood's tweet:

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/local-news/70-points-burke-ramsey-says-prove-his-innocence-

 

[andreww]

This seems to be a myth that has grown up around the case. I just rechecked PR's recorded statements and she also indicates she was in bed first, and JR followed very shortly after. The time she spent getting ready for the trip overlaps with the time JR spent playing with BR. If anyone has any other original sources that say otherwise, please do post them.

From first interview

TT: About what time did you head up to bed that night?
PR: Um, probably around 9:30, 10:00 something like that.
TT: Okay. What time did John go to bed that night? Do you remember hearing him come upstairs at all.
PR: Yeah. I remember him coming to bed. I don’t know what time it was. It was shortly after I came to bed.

from second interview

18 TOM HANEY: When you actually went
19 to sleep?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, it was pretty
21 soon after I hit the bed, yeah, I was pretty
22 tired.
23 TOM HANEY: So about--
24 PATSY RAMSEY: About 10:30-ish, I
25 think.

From Johns first interview

JR: Uh, it was probably 8:30 p.m., quarter to nine when we left as I recall. And uh, we had gift baskets for the Walkers, for the Stines, for the Franks, and we left the White’s and we took a basket to the Walkers; as I recall Patsy went in and I stayed in the car; we drove to the Stines and did the same thing, uh, and debated on whether to go to the Franks or not, but it was getting late and that was a ways away, so we decided to go home. So we probably got home about nineish, nine-fifteen I think, drove in the back through the alley into the garage. Uh JonBenet had fallen fast to sleep. Uh, I carried her inside and took her upstairs and put her in bed, put her on her bed. Uh Patsy came up behind me, and then I went down to get Burke ready for bed, he was down in the living room, working on a toy he got putting it together, and tried to get him to go to bed because we had to get up early the next morning, but he wanted to get this toy put together, so I worked with him on that for 10 15 minutes probably; and then I took him up to bed and got his pajamas on, probably brushed his teeth, and then I went up stairs from there and got ready for bed. I read her a little bit. The lights went out around ten-thirtyish or ten-forty.

TT: John, about what time do you think you fell asleep on Christmas night?
JR: Well I think it was 10:30 p.m. or 10:40 p.m. probably somewhere in that range.

From John's second interview

JOHN RAMSEY: Right. I started to get Burke
22 into bed; get him ready. And he was sitting in the
23 living room working on a toy, an assembly little
24 toy he got for Christmas. And I could see that I
25 was going to get him to go easy. So I sat down and
0115
1 helped him put it together to try to expedite the
2 process. So we did that together and it took us
3 ten or twenty minutes, I guess. And then he went
4 up to bed. And then we went up to bed. And I think
5 we used the front stairs (INAUDIBLE).
6 LOU SMIT: And what time was it that you got
7 (INAUDIBLE)?
8 JOHN RAMSEY: It was probably nineish, 9:15
9 maybe. (INAUDIBLE).
10 LOU SMIT: So you looked for Burke?
11 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. Then I got Burke on his
12 way to bed. I guess I must have gotten him for
13 bed, but I don't remember now for sure. But he got
14 in bed, and by the time I got to bed I think Patsy
15 had already been.
16 LOU SMIT: You just go right directly from
17 Burke and came upstairs? Is that what your saying?
18 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. I believe so.


So my problem with the story is that John says they return home between 9:00 & 9:15. He carries JB upstairs, plays with Burke for 15 or 20 minutes, takes him upstairs and goes to bed. He states that the lights were out at 10:40. That is as much as an hour and forty minutes after they got home, yet he is only accounting for about 30 minutes of time. This should be a simple period of time and his and Patsy's estimates should be close but there is a huge amount of time missing here relatively speaking.

 

[kanzz]

Wait a minute...


What about Burke assembling the toy with John?


But he just said on DP special that he did sneak out of his room

And how is any of that "according to Burke Ramsey". That is just copied from the filing against CBS, so its according to Lin Wood.

A. No Ramsey can be believed very often. There is only a bit of the truth sprinkled in occasionally. We just don't have any way of knowing when that truth is being spoken or by whom.

B. Wood is the Ramsey attorney. So, when the article says, "according to Burke Ramsey", that means that Lin Wood speaks for him.

 

[Meara]

Although exact times vary in the statements, a clear sequence emerges from them, and it goes like this:

Parents put JBR to bed
JR and BR play with toy downstairs while PR packs in JAR's room and does other trip-related tasks
PR goes upstairs to get ready for bed
At the same time or shortly thereafter, JR takes BR up to get ready for bed and BR goes to bed
Patsy goes to bed around that same time
JR goes upstairs to get ready for bed and goes to bed within 30 min. after PR
BR goes downstairs alone to play

Granted, these are not the most trustworthy narrators, but this is what we have to work with for events at the close of Dec. 25th and, according to this sequence, on which all parties agree, the parents had retired for the night when BR went downstairs alone, and JR did not go back downstairs after BR did.

It appears that LW now wants the narrative to say that BR didn't go back downstairs on his own, but it's too late to put the toothpaste back in the tube. BR already went on national television and said he did.

As an afterthought, it is possible JR used the flashlight when taking BR upstairs to keep the lights low because PR was already in bed. The main stairwell, which extends straight up to the third floor, sits between BR's room and the bathroom on the second floor, and lights from the bath, the stairs, and the hallway would have illuminated the end of the master suite where the bed was located.

 

[ghostrighter]

More of the same in the 6/23/98 interview:

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. I started to get Burke
22 into bed; get him ready. And he was sitting in the
23 living room working on a toy, an assembly little
24 toy he got for Christmas. And I could see that I
25 was going to get him to go easy. So I sat down and
0115
1 helped him put it together to try to expedite the
2 process. So we did that together and it took us
3 ten or twenty minutes, I guess. And then he went
4 up to bed. And then we went up to bed. And I think
5 we used the front stairs (INAUDIBLE).
6 LOU SMIT: And what time was it that you got
7 (INAUDIBLE)?
8 JOHN RAMSEY: It was probably nineish, 9:15
9 maybe. (INAUDIBLE).
10 LOU SMIT: So you looked for Burke?
11 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. Then I got Burke on his
12 way to bed. I guess I must have gotten him for
13 bed, but I don't remember now for sure. But he got
14 in bed, and by the time I got to bed I think Patsy
15 had already been.
16 LOU SMIT: You just go right directly from
17 Burke and came upstairs? Is that what your saying?
18 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. I believe so.
19 LOU SMIT: And what is your routine then?
20 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I just got ready for bed:
21 brushed my teeth probably. I did take a Melatonin
22 that night.
23 LOU SMIT: Where do you keep that?
24 JOHN RAMSEY: Just in my medicine or in my
25 sink or in the drawer because I wanted to get to
0116
1 sleep right away, to sleep well, because I knew I
2 had to get up the next morning early. And I might
3 have read for a few minutes; I think I did. It was
4 probably tenish or something in that range.
5 LOU SMIT: Okay. So now did Patsy precede you
6 into bed or you did say that she went to bed. Do
7 you remember saying anything important?
8 JOHN RAMSEY: Important? I know that she might
9 have been asleep. I don't remember saying
10 anything. Patsy is called the sleep queen when she
11 goes to sleep. When she goes to sleep, she gets in
12 bed and she goes to sleep.
13 LOU SMIT: When you normally go to bed, and
14 especially that night, everybody has a way of
15 getting rid of the (INAUDIBLE) they got on
16 (INAUDIBLE). What is your habit of doing that? I
17 mean, what do you remember doing that night?
18 JOHN RAMSEY: Normally, and I don't mean
19 specifically, normally I would have changed in the
20 bathroom. Sometimes I would hang the clothes on
21 the hook on the back of the door. We had the
22 laundry chute. If the stuff was dirty I would
23 typically take it to the laundry chute.
24 LOU SMIT: Can you think of anything
25 specifically (INAUDIBLE)?
0117
1 JOHN RAMSEY: I really don't remember.
2 LOU SMIT: No. Did either you or Patsy feed
3 JonBenet anything before you went to bed?
4 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
5 LOU SMIT: An you are positive?
6 JOHN RAMSEY: I am positive. She was sound
7 asleep. And I certainly didn't and just based on
8 discussions afterward, and then Patsy said she did
9 not.
10 LOU SMIT: What does Patsy normally do with
11 her clothing when she gets into bed?
12 JOHN RAMSEY: Where it lands is where it
13 stays.
14 LOU SMIT: Oh, I see.
15 JOHN RAMSEY: She usually changes in the
16 bathroom so it's usually draped over the tub and
17 off to bed.
18 LOU SMIT: Now do you put on pajamas (INAUDIBLE)?
19 JOHN RAMSEY: Usually. Usually. I don't remember
20 now what I had on, but yeah, usually I wear some
21 kind of pajamas, yeah.
22 LOU SMIT: How about Patsy?
23 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
24 LOU SMIT: She wears pajamas also?
25 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.
0118
1 LOU SMIT: Normally all to bed?
2 JOHN RAMSEY: To bed.
3 LOU SMIT: And you said the normal procedure
4 is to brush your teeth and everything?
5 (INAUDIBLE).
6 JOHN RAMSEY: I didn't that night. No.
7 LOU SMIT: Now let's think throughout the
8 night. I know you probably thought that a 100
9 times. Did you hear anything throughout the night?
10 JOHN RAMSEY: No. Not a thing.

Didn't we learn that John was in his underwear when he read the ransom note?

 

[Meara]

Didn't we learn that John was in his underware when he read the ransom note?

Very observant. However, according to both parents, JR was in his tighty whities because he was just starting to dress after showering when he heard PR scream his name.

 

[BOBON]

According to their statements, PR went upstairs to go and get ready for bed, but wasn't she in the same clothes than the night before at the time the police and friends arrived? I know some people argue that she put on the old clothes again. If she was indeed in the same clothes, what if she never went to bed that night? Let's speculate that she went upstairs and checked on JBR then went to sort out things for the trip, something then might happened that means she never actually got into bed that night?

 

[Meara]

Very observant. However, according to both parents, JR was in his tighty whities because he was just starting to dress after showering when he heard PR scream his name.

This could help explain, by the way, why JR's fingerprints weren't on the ransom novel. If he touched the paper immediately after showering, there wouldn't have been time for his skin to produce the oil that makes the prints. Assuming we believe any of that part of the narrative….

 

[Meara]

According to their statements, PR went upstairs to go and get ready for bed, but wasn't she in the same clothes than the night before at the time the police and friends arrived? I know some people argue that she put on the old clothes again. If she was indeed in the same clothes, what if she never went to bed that night? Let's speculate that she went upstairs and checked on JBR then went to sort out things for the trip, something then might happened that means she never actually got into bed that night?

I will leave that speculation to others for now. All I'm addressing at the moment is the question of whether the narrative we've been given allows for a scenario in which BR goes back downstairs to play after he thinks his parents have retired, and JR, who is in fact still up, goes downstairs to join him. And I'm arguing that it doesn't allow for that. Is such a scenario possible? Yes. But nothing in the narrative given supports it.

 

[andreww]

This could help explain, by the way, why JR's fingerprints weren't on the ransom novel. If he touched the paper immediately after showering, there wouldn't have been time for his skin to produce the oil that makes the prints. Assuming we believe any of that part of the narrative….

No Ramsey prints were on the note. Odd


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[andreww]

Although exact times vary in the statements, a clear sequence emerges from them, and it goes like this:

Parents put JBR to bed
JR and BR play with toy downstairs while PR packs in JAR's room and does other trip-related tasks
PR goes upstairs to get ready for bed
At the same time or shortly thereafter, JR takes BR up to get ready for bed and BR goes to bed
Patsy goes to bed around that same time
JR goes upstairs to get ready for bed and goes to bed within 30 min. after PR
BR goes downstairs alone to play

Granted, these are not the most trustworthy narrators, but this is what we have to work with for events at the close of Dec. 25th and, according to this sequence, on which all parties agree, the parents had retired for the night when BR went downstairs alone, and JR did not go back downstairs after BR did.

It appears that LW now wants the narrative to say that BR didn't go back downstairs on his own, but it's too late to put the toothpaste back in the tube. BR already went on national television and said he did.

As an afterthought, it is possible JR used the flashlight when taking BR upstairs to keep the lights low because PR was already in bed. The main stairwell, which extends straight up to the third floor, sits between BR's room and the bathroom on the second floor, and lights from the bath, the stairs, and the hallway would have illuminated the end of the master suite where the bed was located.

Patsy clearly stated that John came to be not long after she did. This would suggest that she was never asleep before he came up.


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[Meara]

Patsy clearly stated that John came to be not long after she did. This would suggest that she was never asleep before he came up.


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Right. So…? Sorry, andrew, I don't get your point here.

 

[UKGuy]

I will leave that speculation to others for now. All I'm addressing at the moment is the question of whether the narrative we've been given allows for a scenario in which BR goes back downstairs to play after he thinks his parents have retired, and JR, who is in fact still up, goes downstairs to join him. And I'm arguing that it doesn't allow for that. Is such a scenario possible? Yes. But nothing in the narrative given supports it.

Meara,
BR did not say on the DP show that his father followed him down after he snuck back downstairs.

He can claim this to be so at any point in the future.

BR stated plainly on the DP show that everyone was in their respective bedroom, now that explicitly includes JonBenet.

So BR is telling you something we did not know before, but was said by both JR and PR.

Another answer on the DP show illuminates, when asked did he eat the pineapple, BR said maybe, so I reckon this revision of previous version of events is simply LW, JR and BR getting their story straight, since they now know they might face deposition and interview.

So whats new is:

1. JR puts BR to bed using the flashlight.

2. BR returned back downstairs.

3. BR maybe ate pineapple.

One unanswered question is how did the flashlight get from upstairs on Christmas night to downstairs in the kitchen the next morning, given by JR's own words, all he had on was his underwear?

The obvious conclusion is that BR used the flashlight, since JR left it in his bedroom?



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