Weekend Discussion Thread 3/24-26/2012

[Salem]

Everyone - please be aware that anything discussed in MSM or the trial is open for discussion. If you see something that you think should not be posted - alert it - don't tell other posters what they can and cannot post, please.

If something is stated as fact - it needs to be linked. BUT anything TLM said in court is a "fact" to be believed or not, but it is EVIDENCE in this trial and considered a FACT in the trial and can be discussed as such.

If this case turns into a he said/she said, so be it. If MR testifies, his testimony will be treated the same - as direct evidence to be weighed by the jury when they do to deliberations.

If you have any questions, please let one of the mods know.

Thanks,

Salem

 

[robynhood]

..I agree with Matou 1...." his license plate # was seen and reported" to the police !...

2. they have him on video so his cars was at home depot the time that Terri lynn made her purchases @ home depot.

3. he definiitely knew Terri lynn as we have seen them on video at what appears to be a theater buying tickets .

4. the above does NOT fit with his interviews that are transcropted here and recorded....he pretends to not even know Tori's name ...OMG if that is not a lie than what is...?

5. Now is the defense going to next say Micheal Rafferty's car was used but he was not there ....hmmmm?...and maybe they will even say his blackberry was there but not him....hmmmmmmmmm?

6. Look forward to hearing from the Crown and there evidence and let;s pray this removes all DOUBT as to where Michael Rafferty was the day Poor Tori was abucted ....I am hopeful that CROWN will erase ANY DOUBT IN THIS case ....AS WHAT WE WANT TO SEE IS justice FOR tORI AND AGAIN THIS IS WHaT THIS TRIAL IS ALL ABOUT ....oNTARIO DOES NOT NEED PERVS WALKING THE STREETS ! MAY gOD LOOK OVER THE LONDAN TRIAL ....lETS HOPE KARMA IS IN PLACE ...R.i.p SWEET LITTLE ANGEL tORI ....ROBYNHOOD

 

[roseofsharon]

http://s657.photobucket.com/albums/... Rafferty/?action=view&current=ex-comment.jpg

Hope I did this right! Thank you Salem.

This is the link regarding MR owing former girlfriend $2,000.00 in back rent.

 

[antiquegirl]

We can only be thankful she was found fit to stand trial, regardless of being a psychopath, otherwise she would have been housed in a mental health facility and since she is so cunning -- she could have feigned being rehabilitated and having remorse for her crime(s), and then graduate to day passes and then fly through that system and be living in the community within 2-3 years with supports in place -- not an ankle bracelet though -- a mental health professional she could call upon if she got to feeling in one of her moods or blood thirsty!!!

IMO - Pardon me -- fit to plead guilty! I realize she didn't go to trial.

I may be misunderstanding your post, but wanted to point out that psychopaths are not institutionalized, but sent to prison if they are convicted of a crime.

We haven't heard any evidence (yet) that TLM was diagnosed as a psychopath. It was merely my strictly unprofessional opinion. However, if she has been, psychopathy is considered to be a personality disorder, not a mental illness, and cannot be used as a defence. The mental illness defence is rarely used in court in Canada and it needs to be proven that the defendant did not know right from wrong. Our prisons are full of psychopaths, including Paul Bernardo and the late Clifford Olson.

"Dr. Robert Hare claims there are 300,000 psychopaths in Canada, but that only a tiny fraction are violent offenders like Paul Bernardo and Clifford Olsen."

http://www.hare.org/links/saturday.html

There is also some interesting info here:

http://www.jaapl.org/content/37/2/182.full

JMO

 

[Hello_Kitty]

I asked this question yesterday, but I guess it got lost in the barrage of tweet relays. I know that before the trial the Crown has to disclose all the evidence they have against the accused so the defence can adequately map their strategy. Is the converse also true? Does the Crown know all the evidence the defence will use, i.e., the letters, journals, Internet profiles, etc.? If that's the case, the Crown should be anticipating the cross-examination and this line of defence, no?

I'm pretty sure the crown would know their line of defense, if not they would guess anyway. I'm wondering if perhaps MR made a plea in exchange for the location of where TS's body was hidden. I know that the location of the remains is credited to Jim Smyth from all the drawings TLM did, but I'm not so sure about that. What if MR told his lawyer, and his lawyer suggested a plea to the crown for the location of Tori's remains. Is that possible. I always thought it was strange that Smyth found the remains on his own on a weekend when he wasn't even working. Not taking anything away from Det. Smyth, he is indeed a very slick Detective, but just wondering

 

[roseofsharon]

I may be misunderstanding your post, but wanted to point out that psychopaths are not institutionalized, but sent to prison if they are convicted of a crime.

We haven't heard any evidence (yet) that TLM was diagnosed as a psychopath. It was merely my strictly unprofessional opinion. However, if she has been, psychopathy is considered to be a personality disorder, not a mental illness, and cannot be used as a defence. The mental illness defence is rarely used in court in Canada and it needs to be proven that the defendant did not know right from wrong. Our prisons are full of psychopaths, including Paul Bernardo and the late Clifford Olson.

"Dr. Robert Hare claims there are 300,000 psychopaths in Canada, but that only a tiny fraction are violent offenders like Paul Bernardo and Clifford Olsen."

http://www.hare.org/links/saturday.html

There is also some interesting info here:

http://www.jaapl.org/content/37/2/182.full

JMO

Respectfully, a southwestern Ontario mental health facility has a forensic ward, where many individuals with diagnosis: psychopath, sociopath, personality disorder, bipolar disorder, etc., etc. are hospitalized because of their crimes. Some may say, these individuals just had very good lawyers, but that depends on who you are talking to. This is why they are assessed for their fitness to stand trial. If they don't meet that criteria, they are hospitalized. IMO

 

[KMouse]

He owed a former girlfriend in Guelph $2,000.00 in back rent. I really feel sorry for this woman -- that's a lot of money to lose. :maddening: imo

Losers like him aren't going to hook up with women who have great self esteem. He was a couch surfer only he wasn't surfing couches.
He worked odd jobs, if that, and was a drug user. Not exactly a "catch".
He is most likely manipulative and knows how to "show somebody a little bit of luv" to get what he wants. There's lots of losers like this out there but unfortunately this one is also a pedophile who murdered a child.

 

[Hello_Kitty]

IMO i wonder if the recent altercation in prison for TLM in January may have been contrived for more ammunition for his defense if she was determined to take the fall and perhaps she could have even offered up the dog story for that purpose as well. I mean why would she try and HELP MTR based on how he is painting her unless she knew that was part of the parcel to help him. I dunno it doesn't make sense to me...but truly that is the point IMO is people so disturbed rarely do the most sensible things.

:moo: I strongly doubt at this point that she is still trying to help MTR, after 3 years in prison. As someone else said, she probably has the life she wanted, she probably feels better being in prison than she does outside, she gets food, shelter, drugs, power over other prisoners, etc. I think TLM enjoys being there. I was in group homes most of my teenage years(age 13 to 18) (not because I did anything wrong but because my parents were completely irresponsible and incapable of taking care of myself and my brother) and I didn't mind being in the group home. Of course being in a group home in the 70's wasn't at all like it is now, teenagers are alot more violent these days.

 

[antiquegirl]

Respectfully, a southwestern Ontario mental health facility has a forensic ward, where many individuals with diagnosis: psychopath, sociopath, personality disorder, bipolar disorder, etc., etc. are hospitalized because of their crimes. Some may say, these individuals just had very good lawyers, but that depends on who you are talking to. This is why they are assessed for their fitness to stand trial. If they don't meet that criteria, they are hospitalized. IMO

That's interesting. Thanks for that info. So, does it depend on the severity of their crimes or strictly on their fitness to stand trial? Are there serial rapists and murderers in this particular facility? Are any housed there temporarily and eventually sent to prison or vice versa? Curious now why some are sent to mental institutions and some are imprisoned (PB and CO). TIA

 

[KMouse]

I have one: http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2009/05/21/9520751-sun.html

His interest in what she called "rough sex" and bondage -- he became angry when rebuffed -- strained the relationship. She ended it after $2,000 disappeared from her bank account.

The article also says that he didn't owe this woman money for rent but that $2000 disappeared out of her bank account.

I wonder of the online dating service is Plenty of Fish?

 

[crazyladi]

Okay here are my thoughts.

1) How come TLM has not mentioned a single word that TS said while in the car besides the small chatter? She doesn't mention she was crying in the car, why wasn't she? Did she know them both? To me a child that doesnt know someone panics and starts crying at least. If she heard them talking like TLM said they were about the "missing childrens reports on the news", etc.

2) In the beginning that MR frequently went to Good Time Charlies bar

http://timeinmoments.wordpress.com/...el-rafferty-the-suspect-in-the-stafford-case/

where TM also attended frequently. You are to tell me he never saw her there or heard of her? People talk and if TM was a druggie and her boyfriend selling people would know about them even their kids. People talk about their kids all the time. MR said in the interview that the bar is where all the crack heads hang out so why would he be there?

3) TLM's mother was a drug dealer and Goris frequently went there, even if TM didnt how do we know that he didnt bring TS along with him at one point or another? Maybe they talked about their kids when they were there about the dog, maybe that is something that stood out in TLM mind even when high.

4) In MR interview he said he didnt do drugs, but he did, he lied, just like TLM. He was just more calm an collect like Ted Bundy. If you have ever read the Ann Rule book called the "stranger beside me" it talks about how she befriended him and she was like a mother figure to him and she didnt realize nor did she want to accept that he could possibly could have done all those killings because she felt she knew him so well.

I had to go back and listen to the interview again because after I missed the "was" best friends with Tori I realized i wasnt really reading between the lines. I found it odd that he didnt want to give last names, if you have nothing to hide why not clear your name? Is it possible those girls thought something was off about him and he knew that? Is it possible Amanda thought he was responsible and stopped talking to him because she heard things through the grapevine? I cant believe how many women he had going on at one time or another. Also how did go on three dates with this girl "Amanda" and not once ask where she worked? even if he just used her to fool around that is one of the first questions people talk about when you meet someone.

5) When TLM mentioned that Goris was a "diddler, Pedophile" does it make anyone wonder if he was or not? He has always come across creepy to me. Is it possible that something did happen to TS before all of this? I am not saying that he did I am just wondering what other peoples thoughts are.

6) What is MR's explanation about where the back seat of the car went to and why he took it out? Did he know or feel that he was going to be questioned as to why the holes were cut out of the back seat? If so why didn't he tell the police where it was? Or did he?

7) I think that MR went to TLM's house to make sure all the stuff was still there so that she could be incriminated. I dont think he went there to remove it. He knew she was busted and that it was only a matter of time that they figured out he was involved so he had all that time to figure out where he was and his story.

8) As for TLM not knowing where anything was, I do believe that to be true. She didnt have a car and I really dont think she went out of town a lot. Him on the other hand had lived all over the place including guelph. He had a car and drove all the time it was his baby. I think he picked the spot because he knew it was secluded because he was there before this event took place.

9) Right now everything points just to TLM but the defense has put him at the scene of the crime, so there has to be something. What that is we will have to wait and see. It must not be evidence of the sexual assault because the defense seems to be just putting him there and helping clean up. So that doesnt look good. I wonder if they could even get anything off the bag or the body to prove that he did indeed do that act.

9) My friend was in the system for 2 yrs as a teenager, she wasnt a rough and tough chick like TLM at all but she said that the system was so strict and that she cant understand how TLM could have missed appointments with therapists and probation and what not and be able to get away with it. If someone was talking about the stuff TLM was all the time and behaved like she did why the heck was this girl on the streets? She is whacked. She is completely mentally unstable in every way and should never see the light of day.

10) The comment that TLM said about that she was only upset because it was a child makes sense to me. None of what she talks about in those letters, songs etc mention anything about hurting children. Why this child? Why would you have done it? Why not MR? She probably could have taken him down if she was that aggressive? Is he stronger than what the media is making him out to be?


These are just my thoughts and questions. Not looking to start any quarrels just reading everything and going through it in my mind so I had to write it down and hopefully get some answers.

 

[flipflop]

Okay here are my thoughts.

snipped by me

7) I think that MR went to TLM's house to make sure all the stuff was still there so that she could be incriminated. I dont think he went there to remove it. He knew she was busted and that it was only a matter of time that they figured out he was involved so he had all that time to figure out where he was and his story.


I questioned awhile back why 2 pairs of shoes were taken, from TLM's closet, into evidence. pic#54 in link. If they both threw out the shoes they were wearing, then each put on spare pairs that MR had in his gym bag, why would BOTH pairs end up in TLM's closet????

http://www.am980.ca/Other/McClintic.pdf

 

[matou]

From crazyladi's list:

5) When TLM mentioned that Goris was a "diddler, Pedophile" does it make anyone wonder if he was or not? He has always come across creepy to me. Is it possible that something did happen to TS before all of this? I am not saying that he did I am just wondering what other peoples thoughts are

I wonder if the word 'diddler' came from Rafferty directly or TLM? I thought this was interesting in that she said this but this is what she said Rafferty told her. I find it to like psychological projection on his part, to project onto Goris what he feels. JMO

 

[matou]

Okay here are my thoughts.

snipped by me

7) I think that MR went to TLM's house to make sure all the stuff was still there so that she could be incriminated. I dont think he went there to remove it. He knew she was busted and that it was only a matter of time that they figured out he was involved so he had all that time to figure out where he was and his story.


I questioned awhile back why 2 pairs of shoes were taken, from TLM's closet, into evidence. pic#54 in link. If they both threw out the shoes they were wearing, then each put on spare pairs that MR had in his gym bag, why would BOTH pairs end up in TLM's closet????

http://www.am980.ca/Other/McClintic.pdf

Maybe he went there and put the clothes and shoes in her room. JMO

 

[flipflop]

Maybe he went there and put the clothes and shoes in her room. JMO

Possibly, but not a very smart move on his part. His DNA would be on his shoes. If he was worried that TLM would talk while in the detention center, he would have been moving evidence closer for LE to find if he did put them there. That is what I find so puzzling but then again, MR could just be really dumb!!!!!

 

[matou]

Grilling the Crown's key witness, Terri-Lynne McClintic, Rafferty's lawyer Dirk Derstine outlined a scenario in which Rafferty didn't know McClintic was going to abduct a child.
When she showed up with eight-year-old Victoria, he said, McClintic told a surprised Rafferty it was over a drug debt,
Derstine also suggested to McClintic that she offered Tori to Rafferty as a sexual gift and he rejected the offer.
Then, after pulling into a country lane, the lawyer suggested, Rafferty left the vehicle, returning to find McClintic had killed Tori.
McClintic vehemently denied Derstine's assertions.


http://www.thesudburystar.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=3514108


If this is how Derstine worded this, that TLM TOLD MR "it" (i.e. abduction) was over a drug debt, than he participated in the abduction KNOWING what "it" was about (whether the reason for it is true or not). Guilty. Life, no parole. JMO

 

[Hello_Kitty]

From crazyladi's list:

5) When TLM mentioned that Goris was a "diddler, Pedophile" does it make anyone wonder if he was or not? He has always come across creepy to me. Is it possible that something did happen to TS before all of this? I am not saying that he did I am just wondering what other peoples thoughts are

I wonder if the word 'diddler' came from Rafferty directly or TLM? I thought this was interesting in that she said this but this is what she said Rafferty told her. I find it to like psychological projection on his part, to project onto Goris what he feels. JMO

I really hate talking about Goris since he isn't on trial, but since it was brought up, didn't Goris go to court for allegedly sexually interfering with a minor and was acquitted because it couldn't be proven... or something?

Also, MR was readily giving TLM's first name yet he was reticent about giving the names of his girlfriends, I think that strange.

 

[dar107]

^
Very goods points and questions Craziladi, I have some thoughts on post,

1) I've wondered the same as you about this. Tori would be terrified, IMO she would not have just kept quiet, I have always had the gut feeling that in the video of TLM and Tori walking away from the school, that Tori had already been verbally threatened in some way, example TLM flashed a weapon or said you come with me now and don't say a word or I will hurt you, kill you etc.


2) I am unsure, are there media links saying he had been seen at Good Time Charlies?

4) ITA agree, there are so many cases where friends family and neighbours have said they can't believe the accused was capable of the crime. Sick people can be very skilled at hiding there inner thoughts. MR obviously has something too hide and lies through his teeth in the interview. His lawyer has suggested he was indeed there and helped clean up.

6) I think he was most likely trying to get rid of evidence with removing the car's backseat. I don't see how he can really deny that. I am finding the defences stratagy interesting so far, so we'll see where it goes from here.

7) I can't see MR at CM's house skulking all around, or looking for evidence to remove without CM wondering what he was up too. I think he would have took his shoes and clothing if he had the chance too,IMO.

9) If there is no evidence of a sexual assault, why would they have included those charges? There case is that Tori was taken for that specific reason, so I feel they must have evidence of this. I believe there would have been evidence inside the garbage bags, if Tori was bleeding vaginally. Does anyone know if forensics would be able to detect if a condom was used in this crime?

10) I have not seen where she threatened a child either, except she did threaten to harm a pregnant woman. On top of all the other sick things she has written and done. IMO the shell she had built and the tough persona she portrayed, she was not afraid of much, she would not have been afraid to attack MR and save Tori, I don't beleive for a second that she was coerced into any of this, and I lean toward her being "the driving force".

I keep reminding myself there is a ways to go with this trial, and lots of evidence and testimony. If it is proven that MR did rape this little angel, I think it will be the final nail for him and he will be found guilty on all counts.

If it is not proven beyond a reasonable doubt to this jury, then I do wonder if the defence will be able to raise enough doubt as to what actually happened that day, its going to be a hard job for this jury.

 

[Oldsoul2]

Quoted from crazyladi

5) When TLM mentioned that Goris was a "diddler, Pedophile" does it make anyone wonder if he was or not? He has always come across creepy to me. Is it possible that something did happen to TS before all of this? I am not saying that he did I am just wondering what other peoples thoughts are.

What makes me cringe what I read this was didn't TLM testify that MR said to Tori before he raped her, "has this happen to you before" that makes me think that he thought Goris had already been doing it so if that's the case, than it's possible Tori was in fact picked out prior and it wasn't random.

 

[matou]

Quoted from crazyladi

5) When TLM mentioned that Goris was a "diddler, Pedophile" does it make anyone wonder if he was or not? He has always come across creepy to me. Is it possible that something did happen to TS before all of this? I am not saying that he did I am just wondering what other peoples thoughts are.

What makes me cringe what I read this was didn't TLM testify that MR said to Tori before he raped her, "has this happen to you before" that makes me think that he thought Goris had already been doing it so if that's the case, than it's possible Tori was in fact picked out prior and it wasn't random.

My opinion is that a pedophile would not necessary chose a child that had been previously abused. JMO