What do JonBenet's clothes say?

[Lacy Wood]

Blue Crab uses facts and plausible intuition to make his case... a good post.

 

[Toltec]

Yes, her panties were changed. According to the coroner, the blood on the panties did not correlate with the blood on her vaginal area. She was wiped down with a dark cloth.

My belief is that the police are holding back as far as the dark cloth is concerned. My belief is that the velvet vest JonBenet was wearing was used to wipe her down. The fibers from the vaginal area were also found on her shirt...

 

[UKGuy]

In regard to "What does JonBenet's clothing tell us?", I think the size 12/14 panties speak the loudest.

There's not a doubt in my mind those size 12/14 panties were put on JonBenet postmortem after she had been cleaned up and redressed from the waist down. JonBenet would not have worn underwear twice her size, under tight black velvet slacks, to the White's dinner party. The size 12/14's, made to fit a girl twice JonBenet's age and size, would have created visible bulges under the velvet pants. And when Patsy removed JonBenet's slacks and put the longjohns on her when putting her to bed that night, she would have noticed the oversized underwear.

The killer put those size 12/14's on JonBenet. And it wasn't Patsy nor John. They would have known better. It was someone who didn't know that JonBenet's underwear were kept in a drawer in her bathroom. The cops removed 15 pairs of size 4 and size 6 panties from the underwear drawer in JonBenet's bathroom -- BUT NO SIZE 12/14's.

The size 12/14's were stored in the bedroom and that's where the person who rooted for clean underwear to redress JonBenet postmortem found them. So why would the perp be interested in cleaning up and putting clean underwear on JonBenet after he had sexually molested and killed her? The only answer to that question is:

TO CONCEAL THE SEXUAL ASSAULT AND TRY TO MAKE IT LOOK LIKE A KIDNAPPING.

Only a Ramsey would have the motive to stage the crime to try to make it look like a kidnapping, thus directing suspicion away from the family. An intruder would have cared less.

The naive redressing in size 12/14 panties point to someone who didn't know anything about little girls underwear -- SUCH AS LITTLE BOYS. John and Patsy would have known better, and an intruder had no motive to change JonBenet's underwear. By the process of elimination that leaves BR.

BlueCrab

BlueCrab,
Interesting post, I'm not convinced the killer redressed JonBenet in the size-12 underwear. Assuming your little boys scenario is correct, would this rule out John Andrew, who at 20 should be savvy enough to understand size issues?

The cops removed 15 pairs of size 4 and size 6 panties from the underwear drawer in JonBenet's bathroom -- BUT NO SIZE 12/14's.
BlueCrab

Although JonBenet was found wearing those size 12/14 pants, and there was none that size in the bathroom, did the bpd find the remaining bloomingdales pack of 6 pants in her bedroom?

Since JonBenet was found indoors in the wine cellar , we know it was never a kidnapping, certainly not that part. We know she was violated with either a finger or the broken paintbrush handle, or both, there was birefringent material found internally. So whether this was a lustful action or a staged sexual assault, suggests the cleanup was not intended to conceal this aspect.

I suspect the person who put the size-12 underwear on her and assaulted her with the broken paintbrush was staging a crime scene in the wine-cellar.

This would not rule out little boys being party to some illegal activity prior to the staging.

 

[UKGuy]

Yes, her panties were changed. According to the coroner, the blood on the panties did not correlate with the blood on her vaginal area. She was wiped down with a dark cloth.

My belief is that the police are holding back as far as the dark cloth is concerned. My belief is that the velvet vest JonBenet was wearing was used to wipe her down. The fibers from the vaginal area were also found on her shirt...

Toltec,

You could be right here. last time I checked the search warrant I never noticed a black velvet vest, do you know if the bpd took one into evidence?
Or is it another piece of forensics thats vanished?

Although I read somewhere about fibers from JR's black shirt, said to have been manufactured in israel, being found in JonBenet's genital area. This would not exclude any other black/dark fibers.

Now if those fibers from the velvet vest are to be found on her gap shirt. Then I would assume similar forensics would have been done with any black/dark fibers found on her size-12 underwear, so maybe we can assume the bpd know with certainty whether those size-12 underwear went on her after she returned home or not. They never said much on this but did press Patsy in her interviews wrt to underwear etc.

Also from memory she was found lying face up, but the autopsy stated her white longjohns were stained with urine at the front?

The clothing , the blanket, the jewellry etc has always interested me since they paint different pictures which dont seem to add up.

Is it possible that Patsy after finding her body , re-dressed her in the red turtleneck, its how she wanted her to look in life? Was she placed back into bed, only to be removed later wrapped in blanket and relocated to the basement.

Where someone with another vision of how JonBenet should be reposed complete with Barbie Nightdress etc?

 

[Nehemiah]

Interesting post, I'm not convinced the killer redressed JonBenet in the size-12 underwear. Assuming your little boys scenario is correct, would this rule out John Andrew, who at 20 should be savvy enough to understand size issues?

I have sons around age 20, and they would be clueless as to what size panties a little girl would wear. I assume JAR would have been, also. Most guys that age, unless they have a child of their own, would not know something like that, in my opinion.

 

[BlueCrab]

We know she was violated with either a finger or the broken paintbrush handle, or both,

UKGuy,

It was never ruled out that JonBenet could have been penetrated by a prepubescent male.

 

[lawman]

the size 12`s were urine stained, how could this mean they were placed on her clean ?.possibly jbr did indeed wear them on wednesday i.e xmas day.toltec, could you check that info regarding the blood stains please.

also according to information in the wolf case the barbie nightie was blood stained.does anybody have further information on this aspect of this case ?.

lawman

 

[BlueCrab]

the size 12`s were urine stained, how could this mean they were placed on her clean ?

lawman,

Postmortem release of blood and other liquids from the vagina would account for the clean size 12/14's having urine and blood stains. However, it's interesting to note that JonBenet, to have urine stains in the front, was lying on her stomach when the urine was released.

There is no way JonBenet would have and could have worn those giant underwear under her velvet tight-fitting slacks. There would have been bulges everywhere. And the oversized underwear would have fallen off when Patsy changed JonBenet earlier that night, as she slept, from the black velvet slacks to the white longjohns.

Besides, there were only size 4's and 6's in JonBenet's underwear drawer in the bathroom.

It's clear the killer put those 12/14's on JonBenet postmortem as part of the staging to coverup the sexual aspects of the crime and naively try to make it appear the killing was the work of a kidnapper and not a family member. Not realizing JonBenet's underwear were kept in her bathroom, the killer rooted for and found the unopened package of size 12/14's in the bedroom -- and used a pair of them to clean-up and re-dress JonBenet.

The badly-soiled size 6 panties JonBenet had to have been wearing, now with the perp's DNA all over them, disappeared from the house with the long list of other missing crime scene items of evidence (the roll of duct tape; the rest of the 1/4" white cord; the tip of the paintbrush handle; the wipe-down cloth; the 9 notebook pages; the red ink pen; the stun gun; BR's Hi-Tec boots; and a murder weapon). The incriminating items were likely taken by a fifth person who had been in the house that night and who is probably the murderer. The Ramseys surely know who he is and are obviously covering up because BR was also involved.

BlueCrab

 

[lawman]

good post bluecrab.

the items possibly disappeared from the house by bike.there is a bike trail in one the crime scene photo`s.
however myself i believe JBR was wearing the size 12`s.why she was i have no idea.
just one question bluecrab: when was it discovered what was on the blanket that was in the case .thanks

 

[Lacy Wood]

Was there an indication that a fire had been in the fireplace that night/ morning?

 

[Toltec]

JonBenet was a brat and I'm sure she had plenty of tantrums and perhaps with the rush of the day Patsy got really annoyed with JonBenet over the shirt issue.

 

[capps]

JonBenet was a brat and I'm sure she had plenty of tantrums and perhaps with the rush of the day Patsy got really annoyed with JonBenet over the shirt issue.

So for that ... Patsy strangled,molested,and crushed JonBenet's skull?

 

[Lacy Wood]

So for that ... Patsy strangled,molested,and crushed JonBenet's skull?

It doesn't seem reasonable that it would happen as stated that way. Although I do not support the theory that PR initiated a violent act, I have a comment. Think of the possibility reversed...IF PR did something violent to JB, then it was provoked by something, and it might seem unlikely. Many who reach a point and do something rash give a reason that is more like the straw that broke the camel's back, than a "valid" justification.

Writing this reminded me of my experiences with a prison inmate in the 1980s...A young (early 20s) woman who seemed so pleasant, attractive, and seemingly decent that I couldn't imagine why she was there. I looked up the file and it was for killing her child! The narrative showed that she was everyone's favorite babysitter, a good student, and employee who married and had a baby. The event occured when her child had a tantrum and, in a moment of anger, she threw an object from across the room in the child's direction, which struck her in the head. She believed the child dead and in panic took it to a remote spot and left it there. She reported it as "missing" (maybe kidnapped... I don't recall). She subsequently admitted what had happened. It was a terrible scenario which no one who knew her would have ever predicted.

Just one anecdotal case, of course, but it does show that even an element of "bad luck" or "accident" can possibly figure in.

 

[Toltec]

So for that ... Patsy strangled,molested,and crushed JonBenet's skull?

Yes...you are absolutely correct!

 

[sissi]

JonBenet was a brat and I'm sure she had plenty of tantrums and perhaps with the rush of the day Patsy got really annoyed with JonBenet over the shirt issue.

Doesn't this statement go against every description of Jonbenet , those made by neighbors, teachers, friends, and family?? I recall only one person suggesting this, other than you, and that was LHP. She was raising a family of needy kids, and obviously showed jealousy in her remarks.

 

[BeeBee]

JonBenet was a brat and I'm sure she had plenty of tantrums and perhaps with the rush of the day Patsy got really annoyed with JonBenet over the shirt issue.

I think it's very unfair to call Jon Benet names. I also think it would be a good idea to add an "In My Opinion" to your posts.

 

[narlacat]

Doesn't this statement go against every description of Jonbenet , those made by neighbors, teachers, friends, and family?? I recall only one person suggesting this, other than you, and that was LHP. She was raising a family of needy kids, and obviously showed jealousy in her remarks.

This exact thing came up for me the other day on another forum. I said Jonbenet was known to be bratty and someone said..'how'd you get that?' and I figured I must have got that from LHP, who I obviously dont know enough about.

 

[sissi]

This exact thing came up for me the other day on another forum. I said Jonbenet was known to be bratty and someone said..'how'd you get that?' and I figured I must have got that from LHP, who I obviously dont know enough about.

True, in all of these years, the only quote suggesting Jonbenet was bratty, was from LHP. People spoke of her as a living angel, a child with empathy beyond her years, a beautiful child, not only in appearance but in heart. I do realize Mcsanta went a bit "over the top" with his description , but then again, so did the gardener, the costume maker, the photographer, the kindergarten teacher,and friends, including Priscilla! She had many little friends and was a welcome guest in their homes.

 

[Nehemiah]

Clothes probably play a large role, particularly in the staging. If you review Patsy's remarks wrt to clothing worn by JonBenet you will find few confirmative statements, similar with the negative, the indeterminate is largely the rule!


So the red turtleneck seems to be in place, what's curious is Patsy's determination to offer an explanation, whereas in nearly every other area of clothing she is amnesic?

I doubt Patsy is crying over remembering her disagreement with JonBenet, the red turtleneck holds some emotional resonance for her.


Or she may have discovered JonBenet's dead body wearing the red turtleneck, thereafter assisted in her redressing, but would she add two asymmetric ponytails, and use non-matching hair-ties, not to mention the size-12 underwear, which was not present in her bathroom drawer? Then there is the pink barbie gown.

Its nearly possible to discern two different portrayals of JonBenet, one with the red turtleneck, one with the white gap top, and maybe even another with the barbie gown.

Also Patsy told Officer French she washed a soiled jumpsuit of JonBenet's (PMPT pp.59), so JonBenet's clothing plays a large part in Patsy's recollection of that fateful morning.

Great post. I have always wondered if that red turtleneck were worn under the soiled jumpsuit that Patsy was cleaning around on? That perhaps JB had on the turtleneck and that jumpsuit, but for some reason Patsy was compelled to fuss around with it.

 

[narlacat]

>> two asymmetric ponytails<<

I thought there were three pony tails.
Is there a pic of the pony tails anywhere? I cant see one in the autopsy pics.

>>not to mention the size-12 underwear, which was not present in her bathroom drawer? <<

I thought thats where the remaining days of the week underwear was found, in JonBenet's bathroom drawer.