What do we know about hair decomp ***REVISITED***

[FootballMom]

Hi Everyone,

(since the root-band has it's own thread now I'm copying my post in another thread earlier this evening)

As my signature states, I'm more of a subjective analyzer until all factual information is presented. At this point I live more on the fence than any place but feel much more welcome with the Alive crew. I cannot bring myself to commit to either side because there is compelling evidence & reasons for both positions.

I decided to do a little research on the infamous "death band" that alot of people say confirms Caylee is deceased yet LE has NOT come right out and said anything other than she was in the trunk and "the totality of evidence" leads them to believe she is deceased... I'm not here to debate semantics in this thread.

Now on to my discovery.... I read a thesis on the Analysis of Postmortem Deterioration of Human Head Hair. Hair samples from the subjects were taken from the TN "Body Farm". Rather than bore you with details I'll get to the punch lines... "The reason for the yellow-banding at the proximal end is unknown... there is a possibility that the yellow-band is a precursor to root-banding."

Of the 10 subjects (9 cadavers & 1 live control subject) 6 of them presented normal with yellow-banding (including the LIVE control) and 4 presented with hard keratin point, root-banding and brush like ends. The 9 cadavers were PMI from 8 days to 633 days... the only cadavers with actual "ROOT-BANDING" had been deceased for 89 to 633 days.

This science would strongly suggest they either don't have Caylee's hair with root-banding or they found forensic evidence that a close to 90 day old cadaver had been in her car at some point....

Maybe KC was robbing graves to support her lifestyle... (insert sarcasm) :crazy:

 

[ajurk]

And the banding info does help clarify why/how LE is conducting its investigation - at least to me.

i still think LE is holding out for a body. mainly because, ok the hair says that she is dead, but we still have no idea how she died. as far as prosecuting goes (1st degree - manslaughter) it would just be easier if there was some idea of HOW she died.

also, i know that someone (kobi maybe?) said on NG that if hair was laying there long enough, it would form death bands. i remember this because i have very curly hair that falls out all over the place. and it made me think that if i ever go missing, they could find hair all over the place that could have been for god knows how long...

 

[FootballMom]

i still think LE is holding out for a body. mainly because, ok the hair says that she is dead, but we still have no idea how she died. as far as prosecuting goes (1st degree - manslaughter) it would just be easier if there was some idea of HOW she died.

also, i know that someone (kobi maybe?) said on NG that if hair was laying there long enough, it would form death bands. i remember this because i have very curly hair that falls out all over the place. and it made me think that if i ever go missing, they could find hair all over the place that could have been for god knows how long...

The root-banding only occurs when the hair is still attached to the decendent. According to the scientific research, it doesn't occur until around 90 days postmortem.

 

[shadow of my mind]

i still think LE is holding out for a body. mainly because, ok the hair says that she is dead, but we still have no idea how she died. as far as prosecuting goes (1st degree - manslaughter) it would just be easier if there was some idea of HOW she died.

also, i know that someone (kobi maybe?) said on NG that if hair was laying there long enough, it would form death bands. i remember this because i have very curly hair that falls out all over the place. and it made me think that if i ever go missing, they could find hair all over the place that could have been for god knows how long...

My husband always tells me don't ever committ a crime because I shed like one of the cats. It's always falling out all over the place. Isn't any thinner either. I have curly hair also.

 

[TURBOTHINK]

The root-banding only occurs when the hair is still attached to the decendent. According to the scientific research, it doesn't occur until around 90 days postmortem.

That is not what I was told by someone at U.T. yesterday. I was told it could be as few as 72 hours and they scalp actually "lets go" of the hair. Small parts of the scalp is usually found where a body has laid.

 

[Darshana]

Shouldn't this be a "slam dunk" for the prosecuters? I mean it is proven that there are dead rings on Caylee's hair found in the trunk which means she would have had to been in this trunk and deceased? I do not get it. Her mother's car and this forensic evidence. It is confusing to me. If they keep waiting she may flee the country, who knows? She is certantley capable of that!

 

[shadow of my mind]

What do you think?

 

[EastSideOfSaddness]

Hi Everyone,

(since the root-band has it's own thread now I'm copying my post in another thread earlier this evening)

As my signature states, I'm more of a subjective analyzer until all factual information is presented. At this point I live more on the fence than any place but feel much more welcome with the Alive crew. I cannot bring myself to commit to either side because there is compelling evidence & reasons for both positions.

I decided to do a little research on the infamous "death band" that alot of people say confirms Caylee is deceased yet LE has NOT come right out and said anything other than she was in the trunk and "the totality of evidence" leads them to believe she is deceased... I'm not here to debate semantics in this thread.

Now on to my discovery.... I read a thesis on the Analysis of Postmortem Deterioration of Human Head Hair. Hair samples from the subjects were taken from the TN "Body Farm". Rather than bore you with details I'll get to the punch lines... "The reason for the yellow-banding at the proximal end is unknown... there is a possibility that the yellow-band is a precursor to root-banding."

Of the 10 subjects (9 cadavers & 1 live control subject) 6 of them presented normal with yellow-banding (including the LIVE control) and 4 presented with hard keratin point, root-banding and brush like ends. The 9 cadavers were PMI from 8 days to 633 days... the only cadavers with actual "ROOT-BANDING" had been deceased for 89 to 633 days.

This science would strongly suggest they either don't have Caylee's hair with root-banding or they found forensic evidence that a close to 90 day old cadaver had been in her car at some point....

Maybe KC was robbing graves to support her lifestyle... (insert sarcasm) :crazy:

Where did you read this? I'm very curious and cannot find studies etc. Do you have a link? Thanks in advance

 

[FootballMom]

That is not what I was told by someone at U.T. yesterday. I was told it could be as few as 72 hours and they scalp actually "lets go" of the hair. Small parts of the scalp is usually found where a body has laid.

That is interesting.... the reports & studies that I read from UT & the FBI indicate that it takes closer to 90 days for the root-band to occur. Is it possible they were talking about the yellow-banding? That can occur in live subjects as well though it is harder to see depending on the hair pigmentation.

 

[shadow of my mind]

I did too......I did not know who was in the picture with her. My guess is it has been taken down. When you delete your profile, the picture goes.

I just did a quick search on the forum and the only thing I found was a reference to it being on the media link thread. I'll do a quick hunt but won't have time to search page by page. Have a wedding tomorrow so I need a good nights sleep.

 

[Advocate4]

Shouldn't this be a "slam dunk" for the prosecuters? I mean it is proven that there are dead rings on Caylee's hair found in the trunk which means she would have had to been in this trunk and deceased? I do not get it. Her mother's car and this forensic evidence. It is confusing to me. If they keep waiting she may flee the country, who knows? She is certantley capable of that!

I don't think we have even been actually TOLD that there are any death rings on ANY hair from the trunk. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong and give me a link. But IIRC, all of this discussion of hair banding came from a discussion on the NG show early this month about forensic findings, and since hair had been announced as being found in the trunk, there was discussion of what kind of forensic evidence hair can provide and the death banding was brought up. But I don't think we've been told that the hair found in the trunk HAD any death banding. Maybe it didn't.

 

[treeseeker]

What do you think?

If I can answer, I think the banding would have more weight with other evidence, but it's not defense- proof on its own.

 

[darlin gal]

The root-banding only occurs when the hair is still attached to the decendent. According to the scientific research, it doesn't occur until around 90 days postmortem.

The expert concluded, based on 20 years of research and expertise, that the hairs displayed “post-mortem root banding,” a hallmark of decomposition that only occurs while hairs are attached to a corpse that has been dead for at least 8 hours, if not days or weeks.


http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/171.php

 

[FootballMom]

Where did you read this? I'm very curious and cannot find studies etc. Do you have a link? Thanks in advance

here ya go.... there are links for some other sites on the first pages of the thread as well. Before I read the thesis (which was the best illustration of what we'd want to know I started with a refresher on some basic forensic biology to jog my college memory of hair anatomy, etc... (mind dumped that a long time ago). Have fun!

http://etd.lsu.edu/docs/available/et...ier_thesis.pdf

 

[Darshana]

I don't think we have even been actually TOLD that there are any death rings on ANY hair from the trunk. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong and give me a link. But IIRC, all of this discussion of hair banding came from a discussion on the NG show early this month about forensic findings, and since hair had been announced as being found in the trunk, there was discussion of what kind of forensic evidence hair can provide and the death banding was brought up. But I don't think we've been told that the hair found in the trunk HAD any death banding. Maybe it didn't.

Guess I am mistaken. They brought it up on Nancy Grace tonight and I have read it from various new articles. May, as you say, not be confirmed yet so sorry for bringing it up. Was under the impression this was actually true.

 

[shadow of my mind]

I found the media link and the page has expired so the link no longer works. Maybe some one took a screen shot of but if they did I did not see it.

 

[shadow of my mind]

If I can answer, I think the banding would have more weight with other evidence, but it's not defense- proof on its own.

Thanks, that make sense. Not stand alone evidence but with other things makes a stronger case.

 

[TURBOTHINK]

Now on to my discovery.... I read a thesis on the Analysis of Postmortem Deterioration of Human Head Hair. Hair samples from the subjects were taken from the TN "Body Farm". Rather than bore you with details I'll get to the punch lines... "The reason for the yellow-banding at the proximal end is unknown... there is a possibility that the yellow-band is a precursor to root-banding."

Of the 10 subjects (9 cadavers & 1 live control subject) 6 of them presented normal with yellow-banding (including the LIVE control) and 4 presented with hard keratin point, root-banding and brush like ends. The 9 cadavers were PMI from 8 days to 633 days... the only cadavers with actual "ROOT-BANDING" had been deceased for 89 to 633 days.

This science would strongly suggest they either don't have Caylee's hair with root-banding or they found forensic evidence that a close to 90 day old cadaver had been in her car at some point....
QUOTE]
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First, let me make you aware if you didn't notice this was done in 2002-2003. The research has been ongoing since that was done and has had some astonishing discoveries since.

If you look on page 3 of her thesis, you will notice that fungal tunnels were visible in 3 days even though this was 5 years ago, and the transformation of putrid root ONLY occurs in roots which remain in scalp and DOES NOT occur if prior to death.

If you follow on through to page 12, you can actually see the banding pictures. The control group in there were two cases which were 12 days or less. One was 8 days.

In Bill Bass' new book, he talks about this, and states that any hair is now identifiable as to whether the subject is alive or dead within hours of death.

 

[peaceinme]

Who knew this would bring me out of lurking status . For those on this thread looking for the CM info (craigslist, bebo, etc.), here's a link (I hope, if I do it right) to an old thread on this: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68842&page=4

It's in the General Discussion thread #81 starting on p. 4 with message #92. On p. 6, at least one poster mentioned having virus issues. This is why I thought I should post - in case you might have clicked on the same link (it wasn't clear to me which link caused the problem for the OP).

Off to run a scan. . .
peaceinme

 

[treeseeker]

Turbothink, re Bill Bass' book - is that identifiable by banding alone, or other post-mortem changes?