What's in this cellar room photo?

[madeleine]

Ramnesia,LOL good one
first time I hear it

 

[dodie20]

She tore a few looking for those wrapped size 12 Bloomies...to put on JB, after her death. IMO

I'm sorry if I'm asking something that has been discussed to death, but was there ever an explanation from Patsy, as to why those panties were so over-sized? I've heard the phrase, (mainly from Southern friends), 'put your big girl panties on', & it basically means 'grow up, or deal with it, or quit acting like a baby'. Also, I know people who buy over-sized clothes, so they'll last longer, but I don't think Jon Benet would actually have outgrown a size 12, for years. I've also thought that maybe Patsy bought them extra big, so they would fit around a huggie pull up, & that of course, makes me think they may have been some reference to her bed wetting. By the way, my slim, but not too skinny college daughter, still buys the occasional sized 12-14 panties, when they're on sale...so that's a big, droopy size for a 6 year old.

 

[UKGuy]

Either the pink fabric we see in the photo is the JB's Barbie nightie, or it may possibly be one of the 2-piece pink pajama set that JB is seen wearing in the Christmas morning photos. If you recall, Patsy claimed to have put the longjohns on JB because she couldn't find the pink pajama bottoms. There is a pink garment seen on JB's bed in the crime photos. What if JB had the pink bottoms on with the white Gap top (for convenience)? Maybe the pink bottoms are what we see. Be nice if LE actually PICKED UP those garments instead of simply photographing her. Y'know...take them into evidence?
I do not think the pink item in the photo is another blanket because I cannot think of a reason why LE would not say it.
I think the officer who reported the scene as being "two blankets" was mistaken, and did not actual;y handle that pink item to see exactly what it was. He saw a pile of pink fabric next to a pile of white fabric that was clearly a blanket and assumed the pink fabric was a blanket also.

DeeDee249,

The source for the wine-cellar picture is a screen capture from the Schiller documentary, there are a few others from different angles.

Picture 145 is the wine-cellar e.g. paint can

19 TOM HANEY: 145.

20 PATSY RAMSEY: What is the pink thing?

21 TOM HANEY: We have next up, we have some

22 close-ups of the two items in 145, which is the white

23 blanket and the paint can. So if we take -- and if we

24 skip to the other numbered one and go to -- there is a

Trip DeMuth interjects with questions about the white blanket.
Still on the wine-cellar.

7 TRIP DEMUTH: Looking at picture 145.

8 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay. What is this pink --

9 what is that?

10 TOM HANEY: We will show you a photo of that

11 in just a second.

I assume the pink object is in an evidence bag?

21 TOM HANEY: This is the pink -- excuse me --

22 the pink item that again is in a plastic bag where the

23 photo was taken.

24 PATSY RAMSEY: That is her (inaudible). Why

25 was that there?

0383

1 TOM HANEY: What is it?

2 PATSY RAMSEY: It is her Barbie nightgown.

3 TOM HANEY: Is that hers or her Barbie

4 doll's? When would she have worn that last, do you

5 know?

6 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, she didn't wear it that

7 night

Patsy explcitly identifies the pink object as JonBenet's Barbie nightgown, but does not confirm if it is her Barbie Doll's , which is important if her doll is at the crime-scene.

Patsy and Tom Haney state they can see a Barbie Doll. I'm assuming its under the nightgown?

11 PATSY RAMSEY: I'm thinking of a Barbie

12 nightgown that had a big face of Barbie.

13 TRIP DEMUTH: It has a plastic over it, so

14 there is some glare there. You see the plastic.

15 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah; right. What I'm saying,

16 I'm -- I remember a Barbie nightgown with a picture,

17 big picture of the head of Barbie on it. So I am not

18 quite sure this is her -- you know, one that she had.

19 TOM HANEY: Okay. You know, it appears --

20 PATSY RAMSEY: That is a Barbie doll under

21 there.

22 TOM HANEY: It appears from the waist down

23 you can see that much, but from the waist up, because

24 of the plastic, there is a flash and the reflection

25 that is washed out.

So I'm confident we have the Barbie nightgown and a Barbie doll located in the wine-cellar and documented as evidence.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Linda7NJ,

Or her ears particularly after a head injury.


.

IMO There wasn't any, it would have been noted at autopsy.

I am awareof what you're talking about, sometimes clear spinal fluid also is leaked out the ear canals with a severe head injury. Just didn't happen in this case.

 

[joeskidbeck]

Thanks, UKGuy. I can see the Barbie's head/hair inside the pink thing so I guess it must be the nightgown. It just looks really big to me, especially comparing it to the Barbie doll.

 

[UKGuy]

I'm sorry if I'm asking something that has been discussed to death, but was there ever an explanation from Patsy, as to why those panties were so over-sized? I've heard the phrase, (mainly from Southern friends), 'put your big girl panties on', & it basically means 'grow up, or deal with it, or quit acting like a baby'. Also, I know people who buy over-sized clothes, so they'll last longer, but I don't think Jon Benet would actually have outgrown a size 12, for years. I've also thought that maybe Patsy bought them extra big, so they would fit around a huggie pull up, & that of course, makes me think they may have been some reference to her bed wetting. By the way, my slim, but not too skinny college daughter, still buys the occasional sized 12-14 panties, when they're on sale...so that's a big, droopy size for a 6 year old.

dodie20,

Here is Patsy's version. Taken verbatim from Patsy's 2000 Atlanta Interview. Note she develops amnesia early on.

18 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Well, let's start
19 with what - I will make it very simple for
20 you, Mrs. Ramsey. What information are you
21 in possession of or what do you know about
22 the underwear that your daughter was wearing
23 at the time she was found murdered?
24 A. I have heard that she had on a
25 pair of Bloomi's that said Wednesday on them.
0078
1 Q. The underwear that she was
2 wearing, that is Bloomi's panties, do you
3 know where they come from as far as what
4 store?
5 A. Bloomingdales in New York.
6 Q. Who purchased those?
7 A. I did.
8 Q. Do you recall when you purchased
9 them?
10 A. It was, I think, November of '96.
11 Q. In the fall of 1996, how many
12 trips did you make to New York?
13 A. Two, I believe.
14 Q. Do you recall, and again, the
15 same, same qualification I gave you when we
16 started, which is, I understand that you are
17 not going to give me exact dates, but the
18 two trips you made, did you make those with
19 different groups of people?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. The first trip, who was that trip
22 with?
23 A. The first trip was a
24 mother-daughter trip with my mother Nedra
25 Paugh, my sister Pam Paugh, friends Susan
0079
1 Flanders from Charlevoix, Michigan, and her
2 daughter and a friend of Susan's, Ms.
3 Kirkpatrick I believe was her name, and her
4 daughter, and JonBenet and myself.
5 Q. And the second trip you made was?
6 A. The second trip we made was with
7 Glen and Susan Stein.
8 Q. Is that the trip -- which trip
9 was the November trip?
10 A. With the children.
11 Q. Was that -- that is the first
12 trip?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And the second trip that you and
15 your husband and the Steins took, was that
16 also November, but later in the month, or
17 was that a December trip?
18 A. I think it was December.
19 Q. And maybe this will help jog your
20 memory as to time. I believe that was the
21 time of the Christmas parade in Boulder.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Were you out of town?
0080
1 A. I remember that.
2 Q. Which of those two trips did you
3 purchase the Bloomi's?
4 A. The first trip.
5 Q. Was it something that was selected
6 by JonBenet?
7 A. I believe so.
8 Q. Was it your intention, when you
9 purchased those, for those to be for her,
10 not for some third party as a gift?
11 A. I bought some things that were
12 gifts and some things for her. So I
13 don't --
14 Q. Just so I am clear, though, it is
15 your best recollection that the purchase of
16 the underpants, the Bloomi's days of the
17 week, was something that you bought for her,
18 whether it was just I am buying underwear
19 for my kids or these are special, here's a
20 present, that doesn't matter, but it was your
21 intention that she would wear those?
22 A. Well, I think that I bought a
23 package of the -- they came in a package of
24 Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday.
25 I think I bought a package to give to my
0081
1 niece.
2 Q. Which niece was that?
3 A. Jenny Davis.
4 Q. They came in, if you recall, do
5 you remember that they come in kind of a
6 plastic see-through plastic container.
7 A. Right.
8 Q. They are rolled up?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. So if I understand you correctly,
11 you bought one package for Jenny Davis, your
12 niece, and one for JonBenet?
13 A. I am not sure if I bought one or
14 two.
15 Q. Do you remember what size they
16 were?
17 A. Not exactly.
18 Q. JonBenet was found wearing the
19 Wednesday Bloomi's underpants, and your
20 understanding is correct, that is a fact, you
21 can accept that as a fact, when she was
22 found murdered. Those underpants do not fit
23 her. Were you aware of that?

... later on:

9 MR. MORRISSEY: Did you ever see
10 if they fell down around her ankles or not?
11 THE WITNESS: No.
12 MS. HARMER: But you specifically
13 remember her putting on the bigger pair?
14 And I am not saying --
15 THE WITNESS: They were just in
16 her panty drawer, so I don't, you know, I
17 don't pay attention. I mean, I just put all
18 of her clean panties in a drawer and she can
19 help herself to whatever is in there.
20 MS. HARMER: I guess I am not
21 clear on, you bought the panties to give to
22 Jenny.
23 THE WITNESS: Right.
24 MS. HARMER: And they ended up in
25 JonBenet's bathroom?
0087
1 A. Right.
2 Q. (By Ms. Harmer) Was there - I'm
3 sorry. Do you recall making a decision then
4 not to give them to Jenny or did JonBenet
5 express an interest in them; therefore, you
6 didn't give them to Jenny? How did that --
7 A. I can't say for sure. I mean, I
8 think I bought them with the intention of
9 sending them in a package of Christmas things
10 to Atlanta. Obviously I didn't get that
11 together, so I just put them in her, her
12 panty drawer. So they were free game.
13 Q. (By Mr. Morrissey) At the time,
14 how old was Jenny?
15 A. I don't know. Probably -- I
16 don't know. She is older than JonBenet, but
17 I don't know exactly how old she was.
18 Q. Would these panties, size wise, be
19 more appropriate for -- is she an older
20 girl?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And I assume a larger girl?
23 A. Well, at that time, no, not -- I
24 mean, she is not -- I mean, today she is a
25 young woman, but then she was a little girl.
0088
1 Q. How old is she now?
2 A. She is now 15, I believe.
3 Q. So she would have been about 12
4 or somewhere --
5 A. 11.
6 Q. -- 11, 12?
7 A. Yeah.
8 Q. And based on the, I guess,
9 dimensions that Mr. Levin has talked about,
10 these would have been a size appropriate for
11 her?
12 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).

more:

5 Q. (By Mr. Kane) Let me ask it
6 this way. Did you say you bought more than
7 one set of Bloomi's?
8 A. I can't remember.
9 Q. You bought some for JonBenet?
10 A. I can't remember.
11 Q. Why is it that you remember
12 buying Bloomingdale's panties in November of
13 1996?

The police contradict Patsy's version of events.

1 Q. (By Mr. Kane) Okay. Were you
2 aware that these were the size of panties
3 that she was wearing, and this has been
4 publicized, it is out in the open, that they
5 were size 12 to 14? Were you aware of
6 that?
7 A. I have become aware of that, yes.
8 Q. And how did you become aware of
9 that?
10 A. Something I read, I am sure.
11 Q. And I will just state a fact
12 here. I mean, there were 15 pair of panties
13 taken out of, by the police, out of
14 JonBenet's panty drawer in her bathroom. Is
15 that where she kept -
16 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).
17 Q. -- where you were describing that
18 they were just put in that drawer?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Okay. And every one of those was
21 either a size four or a size six. Okay?
22 Would that have been about the size pair of
23 panties that she wore when she was six years
24 old?
25 A. I would say more like six to
0094
1 eight. There were probably some in there
2 that were too small.
3 Q. Okay. But not size 12 to 14?
4 A. Not typically, no.
5 MR. KANE: Okay.
6 Q. (By Mr. Morrissey) And you
7 understand the reason we are asking this, we
8 want to make sure that this intruder did not
9 bring these panties with him, this was
10 something --
11 A. Right.
12 Q. - that was in the house.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And we are clear that, as far as
15 you know, that is something that was in this
16 house?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. -- that belonged to your daughter,
19 these panties?
20 A. Correct.

Although Patsy states she placed the size-12's into Jonbenet's underwear drawer the police found no size-12 underwear either in her underwear drawer or elsewhere in the house.

You are free to conclude that the intruder removed the remaining clean pairs as a trophy, but guess what the Ramsey's dicovered them years later in a removal crate, and handed them over to the police!

.

 

[dodie20]

She tore a few looking for those wrapped size 12 Bloomies...to put on JB, after her death. IMO

after reading the transcript of Patsy's explanation, I think you're right...but I wonder why Patsy didn't just go to her room & retrieve a pair?

 

[Linda7NJ]

after reading the transcript of Patsy's explanation, I think you're right...but I wonder why Patsy didn't just go to her room & retrieve a pair?

Maybe because it was getting late and she still had to write that pesky note?

 

[joeskidbeck]

after reading the transcript of Patsy's explanation, I think you're right...but I wonder why Patsy didn't just go to her room & retrieve a pair?

I personally think it's because someone had helped JonBenet in the bathroom earlier that day and would probably remember that she had on the Wednesday Bloomies. I don't know if it was P or J that replaced them with the size 12's though because that certainly seems like something a man would do because a woman would know they were way too big for her.

 

[joeskidbeck]

Of course P could have thought nobody would realize the panties were way too big for JonBenet. That's another possibility.

 

[dodie20]

Dunno in which depo it is but it's either Beckner or ST who says that the nightgown had blood on it.I swear I read it somewhere.

I'm not 1 to see ghostly pictures, but I enlarged this blanket photo, & the 'screaming face', (folds in the white blanket), freaked me out. I used to have a little spot of wall paper design that caught my attention in the same way. I finally went over it with a like color magic marker, lol, because it seemed that it only caught my eye, when I was trying to go to sleep.

 

[dodie20]

I personally think it's because someone had helped JonBenet in the bathroom earlier that day and would probably remember that she had on the Wednesday Bloomies. I don't know if it was P or J that replaced them with the size 12's though because that certainly seems like something a man would do because a woman would know they were way too big for her.

in that transcript, Patsy sure did dance around her niece, her age, & size, & IMO, She didn't want those panties associated with her. Would John have known about the purchase? But you're right...it does seem like a man thing to do.

 

[DeeDee249]

The coroner did note "tan mucous" in JB's nostrils and in the pattern of mucous/vomit on her cheek. I don't believe he mentioned anything in her ears. Blood turns brownish as it dries when exposed to the air, and to me, the tan mucous could very well be blood tinged. One of the frustrating things is that swabs are supposed to be taken of that mucous, and I would hope that was done. The material collected in the swab is then supposed to be analyzed, and we have never seen any report that stated this tan mucous had blood in it. We should have, though because the mucous in those areas (mouth, nose) is not "tan" but clear (or greenish if there is an infection). Tan to me spells dried blood.

As far as water from toilets being taken into evidence, I believe it was.

 

[Linda7NJ]

The coroner did note "tan mucous" in JB's nostrils and in the pattern of mucous/vomit on her cheek. I don't believe he mentioned anything in her ears. Blood turns brownish as it dries when exposed to the air, and to me, the tan mucous could very well be blood tinged. One of the frustrating things is that swabs are supposed to be taken of that mucous, and I would hope that was done. The material collected in the swab is then supposed to be analyzed, and we have never seen any report that stated this tan mucous had blood in it. We should have, though because the mucous in those areas (mouth, nose) is not "tan" but clear (or greenish if there is an infection). Tan to me spells dried blood.

As far as water from toilets being taken into evidence, I believe it was.

I wonder how they store the toilet water? :waitasec:

 

[DeeDee249]

I wonder how they store the toilet water? :waitasec:

Probably in a plastic bag originally, or a plastic container. Crime scene teams bring this type of stuff.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Probably in a plastic bag originally, or a plastic container. Crime scene teams bring this type of stuff.

I mean now...


Don't they have to keep, mark and tag EVERYTHING ?

 

[joeskidbeck]

Does anybody know where I can find the interview where they are discussing JB's bed and out of the blue, Patsy says, "I don't see any blood, do you"? I know I read that somewhere and now I can't find it. I would like to see that whole discourse again to see if I can determine what she may have been afraid of.

 

[DeeDee249]

Does anybody know where I can find the interview where they are discussing JB's bed and out of the blue, Patsy says, "I don't see any blood, do you"? I know I read that somewhere and now I can't find it. I would like to see that whole discourse again to see if I can determine what she may have been afraid of.

She was actually with LE in JB's bedroom when that comment was made. I don't think that is in the interviews, but I could be wrong.

 

[Ames]

Not necessarily. There wasn't any blood in her nostrils, mouth or ears.

If there was blood on a pillowcase, in her room, it would mean the sexual assault started there. IMO The only place she bled from was her vagina

IMO...she was wiped clean...including any blood that came from her ears, nose or mouth. I just don't think that the bloodstain on her pillowcase came from a sexual assault. I could be wrong...it certainly wouldn't be the first time.

 

[Ames]

Ames,

Its the dark patches, that do not seem to be distributed in accordance with the light from the flash. Also the pink barbie nightgown was cited as the source of blood sample for dna-testing whilst the white blanket received no mention at all, neither does a pink blanket.

Also I cannot see a doll anywhere.


.

OH okay. Sounds like she may have been wiped down with that Barbie nightgown...or was wearing it at some point.

I only see what appears to be...an outline of a doll. I just wished that we could get a better picture of it.