Where is Madeleine? Where is she? - THREAD No. 2

[april4sky]

Sorry April, not buying it.

I read the articles that reported a 100% match to Madeleine's DNA. I believe the alerts of the dogs. The "evidence" of a cover up FAR outweighs the "evidence" of an abduction, IMO. If the judge was not "impressed" as you put it, the McCanns would have been released from their arguido status. 4000 pages of nothing, are you serious? 100 pages maybe but not 4000! Why haven't they been released from their arguido status? It works both ways.

You and I have NO IDEA how and why the PJ have conducted the investigation the way they have.

It is still a matter of time.....

Sorry colomom, I'm not buying your version either.

Isn't it true that the PJ did not need "evidence" to make the McCanns, or in fact Murat arguedos at the time they did?

As for the DNA being 100% match to Madeleine...Well Yes!!! her belongings were in the car!! Did these articles say 100% match to a "dead" Madeleine...I don't think so:waitasec:
A critical distinction, wouldn't you agree?

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache...f+Madeleine+is+dead&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=19&gl=au
"Even if the blood and the traces gathered in the car and the apartment were confirmed to correspond 100 per cent with the little girl's DNA that would prove nothing," the officer is quoted as saying.
*********
If the PJ have DNA proof of Madeleine's "dead" body in the car...why haven't they amended their "dossier" and put it before the Judge again?....Mmmmm Probably because it doesn't exist!!! :waitasec:
In fact the Judge has said, as it stands, even with the 4000 plus pages he wasn't prepared to give the PJ permission to bring the McCanns in again. So I wouldn't think it contains "evidence." I doubt there's anything more than suspicion...and possibly theories!!
Can't be evidence, the PJ themselves have said they don't know if Madeleine is dead!!

As for the claims of a cover up, Geeez.....Colomom thats just more of the same ole same ole. File under Rumour, smears and speculation. :waitasec:

 

[colomom]

Isn't it true that the PJ did not need "evidence" to make the McCanns, or in fact Murat arguedos at the time they did?

Do you realize that the McCanns and Murat could have made themselves arguidos? That would give them the ability to retain counsel and have them present during questioning as well as giving them the right to refuse to answer questions.

As for the DNA being 100% match to Madeleine...Well Yes!!! her belongings were in the car!! Did these articles say 100% match to a "dead" Madeleine...I don't think so:waitasec:
A critical distinction, wouldn't you agree?

Agreed, important distinction. Keeping in mind that this was the vehicle that was rented 30+ days after she disappeared.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/09/10/wmaddy111.xml

"Sources close to the case said the traces - understood to be blood - were being treated by Portuguese detectives as strong evidence that Madeleine died in the apartment before her body was placed in the car."

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,91210-1283521,00.html

"Police searching the car also found so much of Madeleine's hair that it could not have been transferred from a blanket or clothes.
It must have come directly from her body, sources said.
The information came from senior sources in the investigation who briefed Portuguese journalists."

I can also mention the spray of cerebral fluid but I believe you will tell us about "smears, lies and innuendos". And the dogs? The cadaver scent in the apartment, in the car, on KM's clothes, the car keys, cuddle cat?

We have had this conversation too many times. At some point we will just need to agree to disagree.

 

[april4sky]

Do you realize that the McCanns and Murat could have made themselves arguidos? That would give them the ability to retain counsel and have them present during questioning as well as giving them the right to refuse to answer questions.



Agreed, important distinction. Keeping in mind that this was the vehicle that was rented 30+ days after she disappeared.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/09/10/wmaddy111.xml

"Sources close to the case said the traces - understood to be blood - were being treated by Portuguese detectives as strong evidence that Madeleine died in the apartment before her body was placed in the car."

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,91210-1283521,00.html

"Police searching the car also found so much of Madeleine's hair that it could not have been transferred from a blanket or clothes.
It must have come directly from her body, sources said.
The information came from senior sources in the investigation who briefed Portuguese journalists."

I can also mention the spray of cerebral fluid However, the officer spoken to by 24 Horas said: “Even if the blood and the traces gathered in the car and the apartment were confirmed to correspond 100 per cent with the little girl’s DNA that would prove nothing. And the dogs? The cadaver scent in the apartment, in the car, on KM's clothes, the car keys, cuddle cat?

We have had this conversation too many times. At some point we will just need to agree to disagree.

Yes I was aware the McCanns and Murat could have chosen the arguedo option but it has no bearing as to the PJ's not requiring evidence against them at the time.

DNA..Makes no odds when the car was rented. Madeleine's belongings and therefore her DNA would still have been with her family.

Blood..I don't believe it's been confirmed that the blood in the apartment was from Madeleine's.

Hair...The PJ haven't confirmed hair found was Madeleine's. And according to Dr Baden on Greta it would be easy to confirm within minutes of testing if the hair was from a dead body. The PJ would have arrested the McCanns by now if it was so.

Colomom I will continue to mention rumours, smears and inuendo as long as I think thats what is happening. I find it very cruel to the parents of a missing child.

I agree with your last sentence. We will never agree and we have done the cadavers before. I agree they are good......but not perfect without a body.

 

[colomom]

Yes I was aware the McCanns and Murat could have chosen the arguedo option but it has no bearing as to the PJ's not requiring evidence against them at the time.

I don't understand what difference it makes in how the McCanns became arguidos....

DNA..Makes no odds when the car was rented. Madeleine's belongings and therefore her DNA would still have been with her family.
Blood..I don't believe it's been confirmed that the blood in the apartment was from Madeleine's.

The 100% match came from DNA which was from blood which was from the car, not the apartment.

Hair...The PJ haven't confirmed hair found was Madeleine's. And according to Dr Baden on Greta it would be easy to confirm within minutes of testing if the hair was from a dead body. The PJ would have arrested the McCanns by now if it was so.

The PJ have not confirmed very much of anything. How do you know how the PJ would conduct their investigation? It could just as easily be a matter of accumulating enough evidence to insure a airtight case.

Colomom I will continue to mention rumours, smears and inuendo as long as I think thats what is happening. I find it very cruel to the parents of a missing child.

So, is that what you think about the cerebral fluid that has been widely reported?

I agree with your last sentence. We will never agree and we have done the cadavers before. I agree they are good......but not perfect without a body.

I believe that the statistics on these dogs indicate a perfect record with somewhere around 200-300 cases. Chances are highly unlikely they would mess up on this case, and only this case.

 

[april4sky]

I don't understand what difference it makes in how the McCanns became arguidos....
The 100% match came from DNA which was from blood which was from the car, not the apartment.

The PJ have not confirmed very much of anything. How do you know how the PJ would conduct their investigation? It could just as easily be a matter of accumulating enough evidence to insure a airtight case.

So, is that what you think about the cerebral fluid that has been widely reported?

I believe that the statistics on these dogs indicate a perfect record with somewhere around 200-300 cases. Chances are highly unlikely they would mess up on this case, and only this case.

Colomom my only point regarding the arguedo laws was that the PJ did not need "evidence" to name someone an arguedo until very recently.

If there was blood samples taken from the car there has been no confirmation that it was Madeleines. I believe all the results from all of the tests were reported by the PJ to have been inconclusive. As some of the PJ do not believe the secrecy laws apply to them:waitasec: You can bet we would know by now if they had proof Madeleine's "body" had been in the car or the apartment!!

Oh I think we know how the PJ have run this investigation. :waitasec: We know they bungled the investigation from the beginning. Even failed the most basic of police work...By not securing the crime scene....or the car. And then of course there are the many malicious rumours, many of them leaked by some of the PJ themselves.....Those damned secrecy laws again!!!

As for the cerebral fluid being widely reported. A lot of claims have been widely reported...Never confirmed...and "ALL" tests from the car, and I think the apartment, were reported to be inconclusive. If any of the tests proved Madeleine's dead body had been in the car or apartment the PJ would have all the evidence they need to add to their dossier and submit it again to the Judge.

Colomom could you provide a link please that shows cadaver dogs have a perfect record......Hopefully it will include the success rate when "No body" was present....This makes a BIG difference from articles I have read.

 

[colomom]

Colomom could you provide a link please that shows cadaver dogs have a perfect record......Hopefully it will include the success rate when "No body" was present....This makes a BIG difference from articles I have read.

Google this: eddie keela success rate

I have seen it mentioned in numerous places.

Kids are out on Spring Break, my time is very limited.

 

[Barnaby]

^^^^^

I googled eddie Keela success rate, seems like quite a few articles are reporting that it is 100%

 

[Texana]

Let's compare the success rate of either cadaver dogs in general, or even better, Keela's success rate, to that of humans making eyewitness identification.

I'll bet on the dogs being bette.r

 

[april4sky]

Google this: eddie keela success rate

I have seen it mentioned in numerous places.

Kids are out on Spring Break, my time is very limited.

Colomom I googled the above as you suggested. But I did not find any official statistics to support the Perfect Record of either Eddie or Keela.

I did find plenty of blogs where the 100% success rate was discussed. But where they got their information from is anyones guess.

 

[colomom]

April,

You refuse to consider (or give credence to) anything damning unless it is an official statistic and yet in the thread below you think we should look at "all the rumours, smears and inuendo", which, by the way, is only YOUR opinion as nothing has been officially proved to be rumors, smears or innuendo.

You are making me dizzy.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2075519&postcount=25

"Texana I believe part of your sentence gives us a clue. In hindsight and after the press have now admitted their part in the smears. Going back is a good idea, but it should also include looking again at all the rumours, smears and inuendo."

 

[april4sky]

April,

You refuse to consider (or give credence to) anything damning unless it is an official statistic and yet in the thread below you think we should look at "all the rumours, smears and inuendo", which, by the way, is only YOUR opinion as nothing has been officially proved to be rumors, smears or innuendo.

You are making me dizzy.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2075519&postcount=25

"Texana I believe part of your sentence gives us a clue. In hindsight and after the press have now admitted their part in the smears. Going back is a good idea, but it should also include looking again at all the rumours, smears and inuendo."

Colomom thats because we have not seen any "evidence" that is damning. Opinion has nothing to do with it.

You keep saying you believe the PJ have "evidence". Well if they have, none of us know what it is. Even they have said they don't know if Madeleine is dead!!!

What is your problem with official statistics? You told us the cadaver dogs had a perfect rate....Whats the use of that if it can't be verified?
And why anyone should have to prove rumours, smears, and inuendo against them is false is beyond me. I wonder why the mention of it bothers you so much.

We know it's happened.....Many many times...And now even the press have admitted to it. And paid a high price!!! Which is why it's very important to have confirmation, and yes even statistics.

Could it be all the rumours that are making you dizzy? :waitasec:

 

[colomom]

Damning Evidence

1. Eddie and Keela alerting to blood and death in the car & apartment & on clothes, keys and toy.

2. Blood/Bodily Fluid proved to be Madeleine's, 100%.

3. No evidence of an abduction, none.

4. The mysterious item reported as: something found where it should not have been,and one stand alone piece of evidence. (Martin Brunt)

These are the main pieces that have been reported and acknowledged by LE. There are many other things that have been reported and have a ring of truth or are very difficult to disprove. It has also been reported that there is evidence that we, or the press, have no idea about. I will not list all of them here as I believe you would find them to be "rumors, smears and innuendo" which would only be your opinion.

I do not "have a problem", and nothing "bothers me so much" and it is not the so-called rumors that are making me dizzy.

Interesting article: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b57_1189497827

 

[ThoughtFox]

Let's compare the success rate of either cadaver dogs in general, or even better, Keela's success rate, to that of humans making eyewitness identification.

I'll bet on the dogs being bette.r

One thing's for sure - these cadavers wouldn't be found just by humans alone. Especially when they are buried under rubble or dirt (as in graves).

Humans: o%
Dogs: 100%

 

[Texana]

Hmm. Now I feel motivated to look at Kate's words again.

 

[april4sky]

Damning Evidence

1. Eddie and Keela alerting to blood and death in the car & apartment & on clothes, keys and toy.

2. Blood/Bodily Fluid proved to be Madeleine's, 100%.

3. No evidence of an abduction, none.

4. The mysterious item reported as: something found where it should not have been,and one stand alone piece of evidence. (Martin Brunt)

These are the main pieces that have been reported and acknowledged by LE. There are many other things that have been reported and have a ring of truth or are very difficult to disprove. It has also been reported that there is evidence that we, or the press, have no idea about. I will not list all of them here as I believe you would find them to be "rumors, smears and innuendo" which would only be your opinion.

I do not "have a problem", and nothing "bothers me so much" and it is not the so-called rumors that are making me dizzy.

Interesting article: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b57_1189497827

1. Cadaver dogs....which would include Eddie and Keela....are not perfect. And most importantly not perfect when there is no body. [URL]http://www.slate.com/id/2174177[/URL]

2. Blood and Bodily Fluid found to be 100% Madeleine's....I don't think so....Can you provide a link please that confirms this was from a dead Madeleine...A crucial difference for evidence as all her belongings had been in the apartment and car. And my understanding is that all of the tests were inconclusive.

3. No evidence of an abduction, none.......This is the strangest one yet!! How can no evidence be damning evidence?
There is also the important point of the PJ bungling this case....Basic police work again....not sealing off a crime scene. Neither the apartment nor the car were properly investigated for a long time.

4. Sorry Colomom you lost me on number 4.

Colomom I will honestly hold my hands up if the PJ show evidence that the McCanns killed Madeleine.
But I don't believe your list contains any evidence, either damning or otherwise.

I would be interested to know if you will hold your hands up too if it turns out the PJ confirm they have no damning evidence against the McCanns and end their arguedo status?....It seems to be enough regarding Murat.

 

[teacherbees]

april, I know you asked Colomom the question, but I'm going to also take a stab at answering you.

I will always have a suspicion that the McCanns were somehow involved in their daughter's death....at least, until VERY conclusive evidence otherwise turns up.

What would that be? A confession from some other person or person or finding the body with DNA and/or other evidence that points away from the McCanns.
Of course, Madeline being found alive would also be a wonderful turn of events, though i personally do not believe she's alive. (Even so, I do pray that if she is alive that she will be found.)

Why would I have such a hard time taking the McCanns out of possible suspect status? I'm a look at the whole picture type of person. In my mind, the McCanns have done too many things that make them look like possible suspsects.

I don't care what Kate dresses like or whether she runs every day and even whether Gerry is able to blog daily, with rather blithe references to everything but the horror of his baby girl being missing. None of that makes them suspects in my book.

However, I do look at human nature and find the McCanns behavior extremely strange in some regards. Here are some of my biggest hinky points -

1. If they truly went through the terrorizing experience of having a child snatched from them, I don't think they'd be IMMEDIATELY leaving their two other babies in the care of strangers in a strange country. We've gone over and over this point...but I think it rings true.
2. Their constantly conflicting statements (along with the other Tapas members) regarding the basic timeline and what happened that night. People who have nothing to hide don't lie and change their story.
3. Some of their ridiculous explanatory statements. The biggest example of this is Kate's trying to make us believe that she took Maddie's favorite Cuddle Cat to work with her, exposing it to dead bodies. Say what???? She'd let the toy come in contact with cadavers and not wash it before giving it back to her kid? And then, when that same little girl is missing and presumed dead, she'd think nothing of washing one of the last things her daughter touched and left her "essence" on. Sorry, I'm not buying it.
4. Refusal to cooperate with authorities. I don't even mind that they lawyered up (though i find it a bit odd), but making it so difficult to be re-interviewed and questioned is ridiculous. I think every mother and father here on this board would probably tell you they'd be knocking down the doors of the police station to get answers if their child went missing - assuming they were innocent.
5. Once again, until directly disputed, I believe the stories regarding the findings of the cadaver dogs. And, no I don't believe the scent they picked up on was from items of Maddie's when she was alive. The dogs are trained specifically to pick up CADAVER odor.

I could actually go on, but I have to get my son to school. I'm sure Colomom will come along and give you an excellent, well-thought out answer to your question.

You know, April, I don't want to believe that any parent could kill their child, even accidentally and then cover it up. But I also am not going to stick my head in the sand and refuse to see anything that might point a finger of suspicion at Kate and Gerry.

 

[colomom]

1. Cadaver dogs....which would include Eddie and Keela....are not perfect. And most importantly not perfect when there is no body. [URL]http://www.slate.com/id/2174177[/URL]

2. Blood and Bodily Fluid found to be 100% Madeleine's....I don't think so....Can you provide a link please that confirms this was from a dead Madeleine...A crucial difference for evidence as all her belongings had been in the apartment and car. And my understanding is that all of the tests were inconclusive.

3. No evidence of an abduction, none.......This is the strangest one yet!! How can no evidence be damning evidence?
There is also the important point of the PJ bungling this case....Basic police work again....not sealing off a crime scene. Neither the apartment nor the car were properly investigated for a long time.

4. Sorry Colomom you lost me on number 4.

Colomom I will honestly hold my hands up if the PJ show evidence that the McCanns killed Madeleine.
But I don't believe your list contains any evidence, either damning or otherwise.

I would be interested to know if you will hold your hands up too if it turns out the PJ confirm they have no damning evidence against the McCanns and end their arguedo status?....It seems to be enough regarding Murat.

The difficulty I have in answering your rebuttal April is due to your requirement that I provide you with irrefutable, conclusive, incontestable, official documentation that proves, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Madeleine is dead. You know, as well as I do, that this is not possible. In this case it is essential that all information be considered. We cannot hold a hand up and say that we will not consider information unless it is definite. Wouldn't be proper sleuthing now, would it?

I have tried, repeatedly to outline the numerous inconsistencies and press reports that point toward a logical conclusion. I have made list after list of details that when considered, as a whole, show that it is very possible that the McCanns had something to do with Madeleine's disappearance on May 3rd 2007. Even if that "something" is the simple fact that they left her vulnerable and exposed in such a callous manner. My gut feelings about this case have been expressed but, I do not believe that I have ever stated that I am convinced that the McCanns killed their daughter.

I have asked many times that those who honestly believe that the McCanns had absolutely nothing to do with Madeleine's disappearance to please provide press reports or even logical theory that points in a different direction. While some have offered explanations, they are very easy to discount, IMO. I want to see something, one thing, anything, that makes me think that an abduction is possible. When I mention that there is no evidence of an abduction this is what I am talking about. Just one thing, jimmied shutters, fingerprints, footprint, eye witness (don't even think of mentioning JT) would make a huge difference in how I "see" this case. I am still waiting. I would prefer a number of details that when considered together show that it is not logical to look toward the parents, since that is what I have attempted to do.

Rather than defend, defend, defend can you put together some documentation or theory that can really show how the McCanns must be innocent of any involvement?

Do you honestly believe that I would not acknowledge a bad judgement on my part if the McCanns are proved to be blameless? Like it or not, your question is insulting.

As far as your asking for "links" or your being "lost" on number 4, I have one word for you.....google.

 

[colomom]

~snipped a very good post~

I could actually go on, but I have to get my son to school. I'm sure Colomom will come along and give you an excellent, well-thought out answer to your question.
:blowkiss:

You know, April, I don't want to believe that any parent could kill their child, even accidentally and then cover it up. But I also am not going to stick my head in the sand and refuse to see anything that might point a finger of suspicion at Kate and Gerry.

Me neither!!

 

[iNTERESTEDWOMAN]

april, I know you asked Colomom the question, but I'm going to also take a stab at answering you....snipped for space


1. If they truly went through the terrorizing experience of having a child snatched from them, I don't think they'd be IMMEDIATELY leaving their two other babies in the care of strangers in a strange country. We've gone over and over this point...but I think it rings true.
2. Their constantly conflicting statements (along with the other Tapas members) regarding the basic timeline and what happened that night. People who have nothing to hide don't lie and change their story.
3. Some of their ridiculous explanatory statements. The biggest example of this is Kate's trying to make us believe that she took Maddie's favorite Cuddle Cat to work with her, exposing it to dead bodies. Say what???? She'd let the toy come in contact with cadavers and not wash it before giving it back to her kid? And then, when that same little girl is missing and presumed dead, she'd think nothing of washing one of the last things her daughter touched and left her "essence" on. Sorry, I'm not buying it.
4. Refusal to cooperate with authorities. I don't even mind that they lawyered up (though i find it a bit odd), but making it so difficult to be re-interviewed and questioned is ridiculous. I think every mother and father here on this board would probably tell you they'd be knocking down the doors of the police station to get answers if their child went missing - assuming they were innocent.
5. Once again, until directly disputed, I believe the stories regarding the findings of the cadaver dogs. And, no I don't believe the scent they picked up on was from items of Maddie's when she was alive. The dogs are trained specifically to pick up CADAVER odor.

snip...

:clap: :clap: :clap:
Excellent post. I agree completely. Though I'm sure points 4 & 5 will have many rebuttals from some, (as usual ), Points 1,2 & 3 are totally enough to get my hinky meter going. Any disagreement on those points always come from those who think it was fine to leave the children alone to begin with, (and we know where their priorities are), and it's not for the welfare of children.

 

[iNTERESTEDWOMAN]

1. Cadaver dogs....which would include Eddie and Keela....are not perfect. And most importantly not perfect when there is no body. [URL]http://www.slate.com/id/2174177[/URL]

2. Blood and Bodily Fluid found to be 100% Madeleine's....I don't think so....Can you provide a link please that confirms this was from a dead Madeleine...A crucial difference for evidence as all her belongings had been in the apartment and car. And my understanding is that all of the tests were inconclusive.

3. No evidence of an abduction, none.......This is the strangest one yet!! How can no evidence be damning evidence?
There is also the important point of the PJ bungling this case....Basic police work again....not sealing off a crime scene. Neither the apartment nor the car were properly investigated for a long time.

4. Sorry Colomom you lost me on number 4.

Colomom I will honestly hold my hands up if the PJ show evidence that the McCanns killed Madeleine.
But I don't believe your list contains any evidence, either damning or otherwise.

I would be interested to know if you will hold your hands up too if it turns out the PJ confirm they have no damning evidence against the McCanns and end their arguedo status?....It seems to be enough regarding Murat.

Hold on just a minute here honey. The crime scene was totally trashed and contaminated before the PJ where even called. The McCanns had 7 of their closest friends looking under the same beds and looking in the same closets for AT LEAST 20 minutes before the cops got there. THEY where responsible for destroying any evidence.

Even stranger is they all looked in the apartment, even though Jane Tanner saw a man carrying Madeline away. She didn't bother to tell anyone until later when the police got there. She stayed inside looking under the damn bed, when she later admitted she had seen Madeleine being carried away by a creepy, egg shaped man. Good grief, it was a mad house before the cops ever got there.