"Who Killed JonBenet Ramsey?"

[Maxi]

I've wondered if someone triggered a vagal response by grabbing a collar or something like that. If JBR appeared dead or was dead from the vagal response, perhaps that someone thought of what had happened as a strangulation. That might lead to staging a strangulation scene with the cord and stick to explain away the first one.

 

[Imon128]

I believe the killer did an act that could have suffocated JB, and when JB collapsed from this act, hit her head, the killer began a massive coverup because he knew she was dead/dying.

 

[BrotherMoon]

ajt400, I didn't say the strangulation was accidental, I said it was deliberate.

The strangulation caused death. The blow to the head had meaning in that it sent the angel on it's way as per The Psalms
118-16 The Lord's right hand is lifted high, The Lord's right hand has done mighty things.

Acronyms are commonly used in the Christian subculture and S.B.T.C. is commonly known as saved by the cross. Acronyms are an important part of the Christian myth as JHVH, INRI, ICTHYS and many others.

My theory is speculation based on connections made betwen well known facts of the case. Most notably literature that Patsy concerned herself with and elements of the case that match the literature.

The body was posed post mortem. I include the final position of the garrote as part of the posing. The head blow was delivered before that and did not have anything to do with killing as that was already done by the strangualtion (manual, garroting or otherwise).

The lack of skin lascration precludes an accident as an accident would likely be with a hard object. The head was covered or the object that hit her was padded.

Nehemiah and ajt400 see www.Seraph.net.

 

[Shylock]

Originally posted by ajt400
So, if the strangulation came first, that rules out an accident, right?

There is no proof either way which came first, the strangulation or the headblow. Some of the so-called "experts" think the lack of blood proves the headblow was second--it doesn't.
When they broadcast the photos Smit released on the Today Show, one of them was the photo of the cracked skull cap. Smit commented about the lack of blood. An emergency room Doctor (I think in Denver) came forward and stated that they see a lot of skull fractures that have little or no bleeding.

 

[sissi]

Brother moon, it's interesting that others,such as the Barnhills were steeped deeply into religion,if I remember correctly they ran the in home bible study class. Who attended these classes?
Through the years I have "tasted" many religions,and have found some so limited in scope ,their "word" so paraphrased,and their congregations so fanatical,that the attraction is there for those who need "obsessively need" a power to take over their lives. Among these groups are those so very repentent for horrible past sins, adults who will hold their hands to the heavens and repent for adultery,child molestation,drug use,murder,they cry,mumble,scream out for forgiveness.......perhaps we have a backslider?
JMO IMO

 

[Ivy]

As a BDIer, I find the Ramsey quotes in the following article excerpt interesting:

Theories about the Ramseys' guilt tend to cast one of them as the accomplice who is protecting the perpetrator.
"Anybody who's ever had a child, and thinks that, has to have rocks in their heads," Patsy said. "I mean, I love my husband. But I adore, passionately, my children. And if he ever laid a hand on them, I'd knock his block off. People just don't use their common sense."

"The police asked me that question," John said. "I had to think about it, because I'd never even thought about it. The police said, 'Just what if Patsy had done this? Would you turn her in? Would you turn on her?' Of course I would. I would have to."

Their son, Burke, who was 9 at the time of the killing, has been cleared by authorities. But both Ramseys agree it would be more tempting to cover up for your child than for your spouse.

"The love of a child is unconditional," John said. "So that presents a much bigger dilemma, if you love that child unconditionally, and yet they've done this horrible thing. But if you love that child, you've got to get help for that child. It's a tougher question to think through."

Source

 

[Nehemiah]

I have been a Christian for many years and I can assuredly say that mainstream Christianity (which would definitely include Episcopalian, Presbyterian, of which the Rs were a part) does not ascribe to sacrificing one's children--not for any form of repentance, or to please/gain favor with God...or for any reason. Certainly there are lunatics in every religion but I have not read anything to date that led me to believe that the Rs were practicing anything that would lead them to believe that God would have them sacrifice a child.

I respect your right to hold the views that you do; I just do not agree. To say that Patsy suffered a psychosis that led to this, well, I won't rebut that because I don't have inside info to argue that point. However, to make a blanket statement that Christianity supports such, well, I know better and have to put my two cents in on that one.

 

[Maxi]

Nehemiah, that was one problem I had with Stephen Singular. He has said that Patsy's charismatic Christianity made her more likely to become psychotic. Of course, he also said that some huge percent (I forget the number) of Southern women were sociopaths.

I think it would be more accurate to say that charismatic beliefs and practices can mask a psychotic break, especially at the beginning. Religious delusions are very common in psychosis, and, if a person often talks about such things as direct orders from God or possession by demons, it might be hard to tell when those beliefs are truly religious and when they are part of a psychosis.

 

[Nehemiah]

I know I am neurotic; perhaps I am a sociopath and psychotic, also, and don't know it? LOL I wonder upon what study Singular bases his statement? Very interesting but he'd have to prove that one to me!

I agree that certain held beliefs could mask the beginning of a psychotic episode. From what has been written/reported about Patsy, it has never appeared that she was suffering from a psychosis. With as much as was leaked about the case, I would think that something that serious would have been exposed in some form or the other to the public, but that's just my opinion.

 

[BrotherMoon]

Well put Maxi. Evidence of Patsy's prgressive psychosis can be found in the change of pageant costuming for JonBenet through time and possibly in the frequency of JonBenet's visits to the doctor and her bed wetting.

Personal psychology comes before religion, philosophy or social interaction. The theme of religion in her crime overlays psychopathology. The Psalms were not the motive for what she did, they provided her with authority and justification for what she wanted to do. She had urges to USE JonBenet early in the child's life, maybe before she was born. That urge was acted apon bit by bit, eventually JonBenet was integrated into Patsy's personal fantasy that revolved around her relationship with a supernatural being. Patsy's private ruminations about her own God/Evil nature and her relationship to her God were well developed in her adolescence. I refer you all to The Prime Of Miss Jean Brodie. Please read the book and play and watch the movie.

Jean Brodie was a pathological narcissist. Sandy Stranger struggled to free herself from her influence. This story parallels Patsy's psychological development and needs; to free herself from her own narcissism or from the influence of Nedra who gives all the appearences of having been an intrusive narcissist herself.
Patsy identified with the characters of this story to an extraordinary degree to the point that they became split-off persona complexes, elements in her own unfinished maturation.

THE KEYS TO PATYS'S PSYCHOSIS ARE TO BE FOUND IN THIS STORY, NOT THE PSALMS.

Patsy found a later identification with the character in the Psalms as her adult life went along on it's path of digression. The wreckage of her life was compensated by fantasy and a regression into childhood, into unfinished business, into unattended needs. And she lost control. Her attempt to control involved inventing her own God and interpreting The Psalms in a self serving manner. In the end she could not see the difference between her infantile retentive self and her God and probably didn't want to, just as she couldn't tell the difference between herself and JonBenet.

As far as evidence of a psychosis, it is there, and would become more evident if all the details of her life were to come out. Psychoses run in a gradient, at the beginning the symptoms are not seen as pathological. In fact they are often seen as positive creative qualities. I refer to all the visionary experiences of the prophets of the OLd and New Testament.

Chistianity did not fail Patsy Ramsey, she failed it.

 

[ajt400]

But Brother, it's been 8 years....nothing has come up yet except for peoples specualtions.

I would rather see a psychiatrist exam her and then make a diagnosis of her psychosis and whether or not she is psychotic, narcissistic, etc.

Does anyone have any info on this? Has PR ever been hospitalized before or after the murder for any form of breakdown or 'episodes?'


If this is true about PR then the disease gets worse as you age, she would have been full blown by the time JBR was killed and definetely now. I would think after the murder it would be harder for her to hide her problems from others. Especially those close to the family.

 

[Cherokee]

Originally posted by Britt
Depends on what one means by "accident." It could have been unintentional: PR (or whoever) going bonkers, grabbing JB by the neck/collar and inadvertently choking her.

The head blow which followed could have also been unintentional: PR (or whoever) flinging JB around by the neck/collar and bashing her head into something... OR it could have been deliberate: JB goes unconscious from the choking, perp thinks she's dead and the head blow is attempted staging.

IMO Dr. Spitz is correct:
1. Choking
2. Head blow
3. Garrote strangulation

The "strangulation" came before AND after the head blow.

Absolutely! Well said, Britt, as always.

This scenario fits all of the KNOWN evidence. There is still evidence we do not know, and may never know.

As I have posted before, the following order of injury to JBR makes sense:

1. Choking - possibly by shirt neck collar or hands
2. Head blow
3. Garrote strangulation

As Maxi said, if the vagus nerve was stimulated, JBR could have appeared already dead after the initial choking and head blow. The garrote was applied AFTER some sort of struggle when JBR could no longer defend herself.

As discussed previously, many posters have stated examples of severe head wounds that produced very little internal bleeding at the skull area.


My opinion.

 

[Cherokee]

Originally posted by Maxi
I think it would be more accurate to say that charismatic beliefs and practices can mask a psychotic break, especially at the beginning. Religious delusions are very common in psychosis, and, if a person often talks about such things as direct orders from God or possession by demons, it might be hard to tell when those beliefs are truly religious and when they are part of a psychosis.

Excellent post, Maxi, and an extremely accurate description of the "religious" experience of some individuals.



My opinion.

 

[ajt400]

Originally posted by Cherokee
1. Choking - possibly by shirt neck collar or hands
2. Head blow
3. Garrote strangulation

If hands were used, or a shirt collar for that matter, where are those marks? Would there not be bruising around the neck if that were the case? There was damage when she was supposedly 'already dead' with the use of the garrote. Why would there not be when the actual strangulation occured?

 

[BrotherMoon]

ajt400, Patsy is well protected by her husband and lawyers isn't she? With less pressure there is less need for disociation.

And remember, the object of the killing was to get a personal emissary to heaven. That has been accomplished. That would lessen symptoms right there. My guess is there has been a transfer of narcissistic needs to Burke and his role in their church. The psychosis continues.

I disagree with your anticipation of the progression and your use of the word disease. She isn't diseased, she is human.

And 2003-1996=7 not 8.

 

[ajt400]

Yes, and humans have diseases.....do you think a disease of the brain is different?

Oh Mr Bossy Britches, excuse me, I was 8 days short of the actual 8 year reunion. My bad.

I thought the killing was because of incest? It now is a sacrifice to Jesus?

How do you anticipate the progression when it has been proven? Mental illness, especially psychosis, gets WORSE with age. Look it up.....

 

[ajt400]

Oh, and even without less pressure, the disorder would still be there.

Psychotic personalities do not just wake up one morning and are "cured."

 

[Maxi]

Ajt, please delete the naming calling from your post to BrotherMoon.

If Patsy killed JonBenet, I think she might have done it while in the throes of a brief psychotic episode. A brief psychotic episode requires, be definition, normal functioning before and after the episode. Psychotic episodes can also be triggered by general medical conditions or drug use. These episodes can come on rather suddenly and don't last more than a few weeks. They may or may not recur.

I've always wondered if this might have been why Patsy was so heavily medicated in the weeks after JBR's death, and why family and friends seemed to keep her tucked away. I remember that the police had some difficulty getting medical records from the Ramseys -- I don't know whose records those were.

Here's a good online resource with up-to-date psychological definitions and clear explanations. The DSM-IV casebook is available in bookstores, and gives interesting examples of some psychiatric diagnoses.

 

[Nehemiah]

But they did go on CNN so soon after the murder. I can't see JR trusting that situation if Patsy were psychotic, or so recently psychotic that she had committed a crime. I would think a cool headed CEO would be afraid that she could get verbally out of control with a camera rolling.

 

[Imon128]

Originally posted by Nehemiah
But they did go on CNN so soon after the murder. I can't see JR trusting that situation if Patsy were psychotic, or so recently psychotic that she had committed a crime. I would think a cool headed CEO would be afraid that she could get verbally out of control with a camera rolling.

Yes, very fishy that they'd go on TV so soon after JB's death. If, in fact, they were overcome with grief at the loss of JB, a TV appearance so soon, would have been a no brainer....NO, read my lips, NO. It only makes them appear to be overly concerned with appearances, and not overcome with grief. JMO