Why GJ Likely Solved Case In 1999

[Nova]

nice work on the caselaw, but i believe you pulled miller a bit out of context. allow me to share the next sentence from the opinion...

Thanks, VofR, for doing our homework for us. You certainly earned your hat in this thread.

(Thanks also, as always, to Blue and others for their hard work and exhaustive knowledge of this case.)

 

[RedChief]

Probably so, Blue, unless - and maybe even if - one of them killed JBR. But these are people who care about appearances. (Note to all: we really don't need to debate whether they care more or less than the average person.) And most of us agree they seemed to deeply love JBR. (Again, we don't have to debate whether they loved more or less than anyone else.)

I can't think their life has been easy since their daughter died and they fell under the "umbrella of suspicion." That may not be perfect justice, but they've hardly been home free in life.

Nova, I assume it's your opinion that we don't need to debate whether they care more or less than the average person.

Personally, I'll debate whatever I feel needs debating. I hope there's not a rule against that.

 

[Nova]

Personally, I'll debate whatever I feel needs debating. I hope there's not a rule against that.

Of course, Red. I wasn't trying to control the board. I only meant to indicate I wasn't trying to pick a fight on those subjects in this thread.

Personally, I think the Rs DO care about appearances (more than some of us, though I don't know what is "average"). I believe they DID love their daughter (and for the record, I also think one of them killed her.) If you want to debate either of these assertions, I'll try to add my .02.

 

[RedChief]

Of course, Red. I wasn't trying to control the board. I only meant to indicate I wasn't trying to pick a fight on those subjects in this thread.

Personally, I think the Rs DO care about appearances (more than some of us, though I don't know what is "average"). I believe they DID love their daughter (and for the record, I also think one of them killed her.) If you want to debate either of these assertions, I'll try to add my .02.

You had me worried. I don't like to pick fights. I guess I misunderstood you.

Shall we all pack up and go home?

Wait, I think I'll hang around until I see you and the others post your theories in the moderator's theory thread. How long will I have to wait?

BTW, in the 2000 interview, Levin mentioned HAIRS in JonBenet's underpants (assume he meant panties) that may have come from John's black collared shirt. He didn't say fibers. What's that all about? Hairs? He also didn't say crotch, nor did he say pubic area. To set the record straight.

 

[BlueCrab]

BTW, in the 2000 interview, Levin mentioned HAIRS in JonBenet's underpants (assume he meant panties) that may have come from John's black collared shirt. He didn't say fibers. What's that all about? Hairs? He also didn't say crotch, nor did he say pubic area. To set the record straight.

RedChief,

Attorney Levin meant fibers, not hairs. You are right about no one saying specifically WHERE the black fibers from John's shirt were located in JonBenet's panties. Of course, since the fibers were IN the panties and not just ON the panties, one might assume the crotch area.

JOHN RAMSEY: "If the question is how did fibers of your shirt get into your daughter's underwear, I say that is not possible. I don't believe it. That is ridiculous."

Just thinking out loud: If there were fibers from John's black shirt IN the size 12/14 panties, how did they get there? Does this mean JonBenet wasn't re-dressed in clean panties following the murder after all? Or does it mean the clean size 12/14 panties, while inside out, somehow touched John's shirt before she was re-dressed? Or while she was being re-dressed? Or does it mean something else?

BlueCrab

 

[RedChief]

RedChief,

Attorney Levin meant fibers, not hairs. You are right about no one saying specifically WHERE the black fibers from John's shirt were located in JonBenet's panties. Of course, since the fibers were IN the panties and not just ON the panties, one might assume the crotch area.

JOHN RAMSEY: "If the question is how did fibers of your shirt get into your daughter's underwear, I say that is not possible. I don't believe it. That is ridiculous."

Just thinking out loud: If there were fibers from John's black shirt IN the size 12/14 panties, how did they get there? Does this mean JonBenet wasn't re-dressed in clean panties following the murder after all? Or does it mean the clean size 12/14 panties, while inside out, somehow touched John's shirt before she was re-dressed? Or while she was being re-dressed? Or does it mean something else?

BlueCrab

Yes, BlueCrab, but it's these assumptions that I'm trying to avoid. Just the facts.

How do you know Levin meant fibers? He said hairs? Have you discussed this with him? Or, is this just your assumption, too? It was a black collared shirt.

You are free to assume whatever you want, sir. I prefer facts.

As for what the hairs in the "panties" mean, that I'm not sure of. It's possible that LE was baiting John, eh. They never did state that as a fact....the hairs/"fibers".

How long was it after the murder before LE requested those clothing items? If you were John, and you were guilty and you could furnish a substitute, wouldn't you do it?

There could be an innocent explanation for the hairs/"fibers", but Wood wouldn't allow the conversation to continue.

We also don't know whether Levin was referring to the panties or the longjohns; both are underpants, eh.

But, we can ASSUME.....

 

[BlueCrab]

RedChief,

Re-read my post. John corrected Levin's use of the word hairs instead of fibers.

 

[Nova]

You had me worried. I don't like to pick fights. I guess I misunderstood you.

Shall we all pack up and go home?

Wait, I think I'll hang around until I see you and the others post your theories in the moderator's theory thread. How long will I have to wait?

No problem, Red. I could have been clearer.

As for my "theory," years ago I posted detailed breakdowns of my thinking more than once, long posts that were lost in various board catastrophes. These posts can be summed up simply as follows: there were three people - and only three - in the house that night (other than the victim) and one of them killed JBR. I don't think we have enough information to know with any certainty who did exactly what. (My gut says Patsy killed JBR, but that may be because I know a lot more about histrionic Southern mothers than I do about fathers who molest daughters or brothers who abuse sisters.)

So if I seem to merely snipe at people who have the courage to post detailed theories, I'm sorry. (I'm guessing that is the implied message in your baiting me. No offense taken, I assure you.)

I very much appreciate those of you who are able to construct what you believe to be definitive accounts of the killing, but I can't in good conscience join your ranks.

 

[RedChief]

No problem, Red. I could have been clearer.

As for my "theory," years ago I posted detailed breakdowns of my thinking more than once, long posts that were lost in various board catastrophes. These posts can be summed up simply as follows: there were three people - and only three - in the house that night (other than the victim) and one of them killed JBR. I don't think we have enough information to know with any certainty who did exactly what. (My gut says Patsy killed JBR, but that may be because I know a lot more about histrionic Southern mothers than I do about fathers who molest daughters or brothers who abuse sisters.)

So if I seem to merely snipe at people who have the courage to post detailed theories, I'm sorry. (I'm guessing that is the implied message in your baiting me. No offense taken, I assure you.)

I very much appreciate those of you who are able to construct what you believe to be definitive accounts of the killing, but I can't in good conscience join your ranks.

Yes, Nova, I watch your show on public television. First rate!

I'm thankful for the opportunity to learn more about histrionic Southern mothers. I absolutely defer to your expertise on this topic. I know I won't be telling you anything you don't already know; in fact, I'm hoping you'll share with me what you know and I don't. I came to the forum to find out who killed JBR. Though I haven't yet, I'm still hopeful; one of those optimistic fools.

Patsy was raised in West Virginia? That's pretty far north. Does she qualify as a Southerner nontheless? I guess what makes her a Southerner is the culture which molded her? Where is the invisible line that forms the boundary between Southern culture and Northern culture? We could include Eastern and Western too, but those are slightly irrelevant.....well, maybe not. West Virginia is pretty far east relative to Boulder, Colorado. On top of all those cultures (psychosocial influences) we have the American culture? Damn, it's getting chaotic in here.

I'm a Westerner by birth and immersion. It's a sad fact. More specifically, I grew up and live in the Rocky Mountain West. I'm a John Denver fan; God rest his soul, that poor naive idealist. It has it's pros and cons. The trout fishing is excellent. The "motor heads" can be a pain. I think I'd be like a duck out of water in Parkersburg; boy, have you looked at the map of WV and noticed all those burgs? People are sure copy-cats, aren't they. Thisburg, thatburg, theotherburg. Well, what have we got here? Thisville, thatville, theotherville. We don't like "outsiders", except if they come and spend a lot of money and go home and come again next year. It's called xenophobia in association with tourism. If they decide to stay--there's no law against it--we call 'em "imports". Who says we're not prejudiced. A Southerner who decided to come here to live, would be given the cold shoulder at first, but eventually acculturated and embraced. Slowly, the old culture gives way to a new one, and a newer one, and a newer one yet. And so it goes. Child beauty pageants? Forgetaboutit!

So, Southern gals absorb their histrionics from their culture? If that's so, then can I safey surmise that these gals are genetically predisposed to histrionics, and the culture which surrounds them and washes over them nourishes this behavior? If the personality (a stable set of psychosocial characteristics) which forms by virtue of this cultural bombardment, is described in the diagnostic manual, I guess it's pathological, right? And, if it's pathological, the South, itself, is mentally and/or emotionally pathogenic? Maybe it's the mint julips.

I confess, I knew next to nothing about so-called child beauty pageants until this homicide occurred. I probably still don't know nearly as much as I think I do; but, I'm learning. I will want to give my daughter a leg up in life and this pageant thing just might be the ticket.....nah!

Tell me, leaving all prejudice aside, and knowing what you know about the pageants and JonBenet's participation in them (see, I didn't say excessive), is that any way to raise a daughter; is that any way to treat an innocent little girl? Is that any kind of healthy childhood? I really would like to have your opinion on this. I promise that I'll reciprocate, once you've revealed your innermost thoughts.

Finally (almost), if I were to read all your posts on this forum, would I be rewarded with some definite reasons as to why you think the Ramseys must have done it? Seriously, if that is so, I'll not hesitate to study them.

I hunger for a convincing hypothesis concerning the events of Dec. 25/26, 1996, at 755 15th Street, in Boulder Colorado, which culminated in the death of Little Miss Christmas.

I wasn't aware that you'd been sniping; I'll be sure to be on the lookout for that.

 

[Nehemiah]

I know you were directing your post toward Nova, so forgive me if my interjection here is premature. Being a Southerner, a woman, a mother, having a mother, a knowledge of pageants, and even having been a pageant judge before made me want to jump right in. Only, I am not histrionic nor is my mother; however, I recently had a narcissistic histrionic Southern woman boss, and I do feel very qualified to speak to that, also.

 

[Nova]

Just to be clear, guys, I am by no means claiming Southern women are more predisposed to commit homicide than anyone else. I'm only saying I recognize a general type in PR - a type of woman I personally love, by the way - and I understand the rage and steely strength that often lies beneath the moonlight and magnolias. (A magnolia, by the way, is a tough if beautiful, prehistoric flower that has survived millions of years of evolutionary competition.)

Being "Southern" is relative. Someone from Mississippi might well think of West Virginians as "Yankees." Historically, of course, the counties that now comprise West Virginia attempted to secede from the Commonwealth of Virginia and remain in the Union during the Civil War. But I think there's ample evidence that PR thinks of herself as Southern and that's good enough for me. (It's a cultural condition, not a genetic one, Red. I might even argue that any parent who enrolls her daughter in a beauty pageant is at least an honorary Southerner.) Nobody in Vermont would go on television and say, "Keep your babies close to you."

I am most influenced by the ransom note, which serves no purpose other than to suggest the presence of someone outside the family in the house that night. I think the ransom note reeks of PR and her love of colorful phrases. Its very length sets it apart from most Americans (and all younger Americans) who simply aren't so verbose.

But even if PR wrote the note, of course, we don't know for which R she was covering. And I don't doubt she is capable of staging a cover-up to protect herself, her husband or her son.

Maybe BDI, but I'm bothered by the fact that his parents sent him out of their sight (and control) on the day of the murder. That just seems counter-intuitive for two people who were trying to control an entire investigation and must have feared what Burke might say when he was away from them.

If I could be sure JR had been molesting his daughter, I might feel differently; but what little, authoritative forensic explanation we have seems unclear on this point.

So I'm left with an explosion of violence, an unintended killing and a theatrical cover-up. Sounds like Patsy to me. But there are all sorts of reasonable doubts here.

(Sorry, Red. My original posts on this subject were much longer, much more detailed and logical. Those were lost (more than once) and can't be retrieved.)

 

[RedChief]

I am most influenced by the ransom note, which serves no purpose other than to suggest the presence of someone outside the family in the house that night. I think the ransom note reeks of PR and her love of colorful phrases. Its very length sets it apart from most Americans (and all younger Americans) who simply aren't so verbose.

But even if PR wrote the note, of course, we don't know for which R she was covering. And I don't doubt she is capable of staging a cover-up to protect herself, her husband or her son.

Maybe BDI, but I'm bothered by the fact that his parents sent him out of their sight (and control) on the day of the murder. That just seems counter-intuitive for two people who were trying to control an entire investigation and must have feared what Burke might say when he was away from them.

Thank goodness Patsy isn't a flowering plant. You'd have a convincing argument. You must know Patsy pretty well, to be recognizing her as a general type. I've seen her several times on the tube, and I've read her book, and don't feel I recognize her as any type, general or otherwise. I will say this, she seems awfully composed and by no means a histrionic personality. Chalk that up to tranquilzers? O'course, I'm not a shrink nor a linguist.

How can one become Southern just by thinking of oneself as such? One's Southernness (to coin a word) comes from one's culture, not one's powers of imagination. I'm not so sure we can separate culture from genetics. Genetics seems to play a role in just about everything. But we're getting pretty far afield and way out of my bailiwick.

I respect your opinions and am giving them some thought and thank you for posting them; but, I confess, it puzzles me that people who think PDI, or covered, seem to think they know her so well, when I know her hardly at all. You're saying that you know that Patsy loves colorful phrases. How do you know this? Do you have correspondence from her or has she written a book, other than DOI, which contains hardly any colorful phrases within all its 427 pages?

The ransom note has multiple plausible interpretations. It did ask for $118,000, no? Everyone is saying Patsy must have written it because it's so long. Huh? Did she write it after JonBenet was murdered? Wow! Steel magnolia for sure; maybe even psychopath? Criminy! BTW, when I read the raw ransom note (not the typed version), I get a much different impression of the writer and the note itself. Do you? I know some young Americans who are mighty verbose, and very good dramatic writers.

This is it in a nutshell for me, as regards suspecting Patsy because we feel we know her well enough to arrive at that probability. Some people probably know her pretty well and are not posting on this forum. Others probably don't know her very well, but imagine they do, and do post on this forum.

Which comes first--the horse or the cart? To say that Patsy probably did this because she's a self-made southern magnolia, is maybe grasping a bit?

With all due respect...and that certainly wouldn't hold up in court.

Ahhh, saved by the glitches...

 

[Nova]

Of course my ideas wouldn't hold up in court, Red. I believe I've stated about 10 times in this thread alone that I don't think anyone can be convicted of this crime - given what we in the general public know. (Of course there is much we don't know.)

And I didn't say PR's character proves she committed the crime, I said I can imagine her capable of the crime and cover-up, based upon what little we know of her character.

No, I don't know any of the Rs and I'm rather careful not to assume I do.

But we have numerous examples, however brief, of PR's speech and writing. We've heard her speak and can recognize the accent.

You seem rather hung up on the location of West Virginia. Lots of people there consider themselves and are Southerners. I grew up (in Florida) with a number of people from the area and they very much thought of themselves as Southern, even stereotypically so.

As for "histrionic," it goes with the type to some extent. And we know of PR's love of homemade talent shows. (And good for her! Again, I'm not saying this makes her a killer. She's probably a charming hostess.) And we have the account of her miracle cure and her pleas to God to take her instead of her dead child. None of these are a fault, much less a crime, but it does suggest a certain type.

Now would any of this be evidence in court? Of course not! But I'm not a prosecutor, judge or juror. I'm a private citizen participating in an opinion forum. The rules of evidence do not apply here.

And when people here say, "Oh, poor little Patsy couldn't have pulled it off. She couldn't have possibly composed 'the War and Peace of ransom notes' with her daughter dead on the floor; she couldn't have put rope around her daughter's neck to suggest a sadistic crime.", then I say, "You don't know Southern women."

 

[Nova]

If you have a plausible explanation for the ransom note, I'd like to hear it. I've never heard one other than my - admittedly general - explanation.

As for "saved by the glitches," your condescension is wasted on me. I'm not that thin-skinned. And I've already told you my detailed account of the evidence concluded that we could NOT know for certain who killed JBR. So I agree with you that far. From what do I need saving?

 

[RedChief]

If you have a plausible explanation for the ransom note, I'd like to hear it. I've never heard one other than my - admittedly general - explanation.

As for "saved by the glitches," your condescension is wasted on me. I'm not that thin-skinned. And I've already told you my detailed account of the evidence concluded that we could NOT know for certain who killed JBR. So I agree with you that far. From what do I need saving?

Gee, Nova, I didn't mean to be condescending, just argumentative; I don't think I could even be that if I tried real hard; not even sure what it means. About the glitches, I meant as follows: you say you posted a detailed theory but it evaporated, and I took that to mean you don't intend to repeat the process, and that's fine, really. Of all the people in the forum, I'm sure you deem me the least necessary for you to please. It's just that I like to peruse folks' theories, just in case I might find one that makes good sense. So, you haven't been saved; I have.

I note that you express yourself well; I admire that. And you seem to have the courage of your convictions; I admire that too, for what it's worth.

I take it you don't find any of my explanations for the ransom note plausible.

OK, I'll take your evaluation under advisement, and thank you for it, and hope others will be as frank.

Here's something that bothers me about PDI because no one else could have written that note--and it's not a criticism of your assessment; that's what lots of people think: PDI has been around for several years and Patsy hasn't been indicted. They even supposedly have fiber evidence that points to her and she hasn't been indicted. They have false statements and inconsistent statements and she hasn't been indicted. Also, there's that problematic foreign male DNA in the underpants. Seems to me that's a trump card for the defense unless it can be convincingly explained away by the prosecutor. How likely is that, in your estimation?

If it weren't for the DNA, would one or more of the Ramseys have been indicted, do you think?

Just wonderin'......

 

[Nova]

Sorry, Red, apparently I misunderstood this time. I thought you were accusing me of inventing a detailed explanation that was conveniently lost and therefore couldn't be criticized. What I was trying to say with my reference to lost posts was that I was recounting something I wrote long ago (six or seven years) and acknowledging that my memory is sketchy at best. (I haven't read anything on the case and have only rarely visited this room since the 1990s.)

Again, there was no lost "theory." Rather I reviewed the evidence (as I understood it at the time) against each R and concluded that evidence was inconclusive in each case. Likewise, my reference to PR as a "histrionic, Southern female" was not offered as proof of her guilt, but as an admission of my own bias. (Not that I'm against such women. I love 'em. But I'm not blind to their strength in emergencies.)

That's not to say I don't believe in Ramsey guilt of some sort. I do (in my private capacity, not as a juror). But as long as they ain't talking and we have no conclusive forensics, I don't know exactly what happened.

(Speaking of histrionics, by the way, the woman invited a mob of friends to her house even after she had been told the kidnappers of her daughter would be watching and her daughter would be executed. Either she knew the RN was phony and the friends were invited to muddy the crime scene, or they were there to witness PR's Hour of Crisis. Either way (and the truth may be both), it's a rather theatrical course of action under the circumstances.)

I don't know why there has been no indictment. I suspect the inaction results from some combination of (i) the botched investigation; (ii) the fact that almost all forensics taken from the house could be both "innocent" and incriminating with regards to any and all of the Rs; (iii) the prosecutors' fear of going up against a high-powered defense team in the post-OJ era; and (iv) the g.j. hearing strong arguments for and against (Smit) Ramsey guilt and being unable to sort them out.

(Edited to respond to your specific question about the DNA: I think it may just be accidental contamination, but I can understand if the prosecution has concluded a jury won't believe it. Jurors - just like Websleuthers - don't like coincidences.)

I haven't read your explanations for the RN. I'll look for them and comment if I can (though it may be a few days as I have company arriving within the hour).

 

[skybluepink]

Isn't double jeopardy (and why do I keep feeding RedChief these straight lines?) another reason for not indicting with minimal evidence? If you prosecute & lose, there's no take 2, whereas there's no statute of limitations on murder, so waiting for a break makes sense.

Also, as to Nova's analysis of PR: I second that emotion.

And now for something completely different--Because of the brick walls that impose themselves in every trail we've been trying to follow, I hereby give expression to an idle but new observation: JBR (may she RIP) seemed to be a most untalented little thing, based on the videos that circulated. And she was not ESPECIALLY pretty. I see prettier & more talented little girls every day. Without the pageant makeup, she looked cute & sweet--and WITH it, she looked too horendous for words, if you ask moi--but it's not as if her natural beauty would have prompted her entrance into beauty pageants; rather, it was her mother's desire & experience that led to her participation. Also, she didn't seem to be enjoying herself whatsoever. I suppose what I'm getting at is: How long could PR have stayed in the dark about where JBR truly rates on that circuit? Not that there's a direct correlation between trying to groom a tone-deaf, unenthusiastic child for the big time and ending the child's life--it just is what it is. Another defeat, or discouragement, or failure?

 

[RedChief]

Yes'm, I couldn't have characterized it more accurately.

I rest my case.

 

[Nehemiah]

Also, she didn't seem to be enjoying herself whatsoever. I suppose what I'm getting at is: How long could PR have stayed in the dark about where JBR truly rates on that circuit? Not that there's a direct correlation between trying to groom a tone-deaf, unenthusiastic child for the big time and ending the child's life--it just is what it is. Another defeat, or discouragement, or failure?

On what are you basing the statement that she didn't seem to be enjoying herself--the videos, or something you have read?

JB did win several pageants, so we can assume that some of the judges found her to be whatever they were looking for in a winner. That in itself most likely fueled Patsy to continue entering her. I know little girls who have been in many pageants and never won one, yet they and their moms plod along, hoping...

 

[tipper]

http://www.geocities.com/jonbenet_1990/jbbio.html

"Suesan Rajabi, Miss Colorado USA 1996, judged one of the last pageants JonBenet competed in, she remembers JonBenet as 'sweet and funloving', she also says, "I've seen little girls who seemed to be in pageants against their will, but that wasn't true of JonBenet. She loved to perform, she loved the costumes."