Why the 'Perfect Family' Front?

[narlacat]

>>I don't think it's so much the question of downplaying the bedwetting issue,as it is the question of why did the bedwetting become such a main focus in the first place, that bothers me.<<

JonBenet's bed wetting problem was quite significant. Not only did she wet her bed, she had taken to wearing pull ups in the day time.
I dont care what anyone says, at that age, that is not normal.
I think JonBenet's toileting problems could be atrributed to some kind of abuse happening to her, either sexual or emotional. In JonBenet's case it could have been both.

 

[Becba]

>>I don't think it's so much the question of downplaying the bedwetting issue,as it is the question of why did the bedwetting become such a main focus in the first place, that bothers me.<<

JonBenet's bed wetting problem was quite significant. Not only did she wet her bed, she had taken to wearing pull ups in the day time.
I dont care what anyone says, at that age, that is not normal.
I think JonBenet's toileting problems could be atrributed to some kind of abuse happening to her, either sexual or emotional. In JonBenet's case it could have been both.

Wasn't there a pair of urine stained white long john style pants found? I'm not up with all the facts as most here, that is why I am asking. I thought the stained pants were found and she was to have had them on that night and that is what brought up the bed wetting issue.

 

[narlacat]

I thought she was found in the urine stained white long john's...but maybe I'm wrong. Someone will come along and dispute or verify this I'm sure.

 

[Zman]

>>I don't think it's so much the question of downplaying the bedwetting issue,as it is the question of why did the bedwetting become such a main focus in the first place, that bothers me.<<

JonBenet's bed wetting problem was quite significant. Not only did she wet her bed, she had taken to wearing pull ups in the day time.
I dont care what anyone says, at that age, that is not normal.

I'm pretty much "anyone" for sure but I'm sticking up for 6 year old bedwetters because I know a couple of them. It may not be normal but it's not rare either.

 

[Zman]

I am sorry - I am not going to dismiss what they portray as their own word under the assumption that their lawyers edited and tweaked those words.

Patsy told 100 different stories and every last one of them told a tale of a perfect family thay spanned years included tragedy, love, togetherness, love, perfection and more love. Not saying the 'love' part is a lie. Of course they all loved each other, I am not trying to deny that. .

If the "love" part is not a lie maybe the rest of it is true too. It does seem that sometimes when we (people in general) remember the past we focus on the good times we had more than the bad.

One more question Zman - if you think DOI was 'dolled up' to look good by the lawyers, why not every other word out of their mouths? The first time I ever saw any Ramsey face in the media - they already had lawyers.

Why would they not have lawyers? This is America. Lawyers are around to protect the rights of the citizens.

If the R's were guilty and LE could prove it then they would have went to jail with or without lawyers.

You cannot judge someones guilt or innocence by wether or not they have a lawyer.

 

[Brefie]

Nobody is judging then by the fact they had a lawyer. The issue was that you said the book had been filtered by lawyers and said you couldn't draw anything from it, and I pointed out that they have lawyers from day 1 - so is everything from their mouths filtered?
THAT was my question.

 

[capps]

Wasn't there a pair of urine stained white long john style pants found? I'm not up with all the facts as most here, that is why I am asking. I thought the stained pants were found and she was to have had them on that night and that is what brought up the bed wetting issue.

Becba,

The white long johns is what JonBenet was found wearing when she was discovered in the cellar.They could have been urine stained for two reasons. First being, she wet herself during the trauma of being killed.Secondly,it could have been bodily fluids leaving her system upon death.

 

[Becba]

Becba,

The white long johns is what JonBenet was found wearing when she was discovered in the cellar.They could have been urine stained for two reasons. First being, she wet herself during the trauma of being killed.Secondly,it could have been bodily fluids leaving her system upon death.

Thanks. Had not considered that. Just recall they were on a list I read and I assumed it was a case of wetting the bed.
I tried to get a crash course on this by reading 2 of the books but it is a complex case. Takes a lot more time to get all the details down than if I had followed it closely when it happened. I still read back further and further on these threads and it is like an evolving mystery as I read.

 

[Toltec]

I can't imagine a mother , in this era of enlightenment, getting frustrated or upset over bedwetting. A poor, illiterate, perhaps, could get upset, others have materials to read, doctors to explain, all of the information they would need and realize it is not a personality problem or a failure on the part of a parent with training their child to toilet. As a mother, of one bedwetter, I KNEW, no one had to tell me, that this child slept differently and more deeply than the rest. This could however be a clue! Someone may have known how deeply Jonbenet slept! Not one of the other kids in my house could be carried in without awakening, but the bedwetter wouldn't, couldn't be awakened to walk in, and would never remember getting into bed.

That is one of the most backward statements I've read in a long time. Who are you to judge poor mother's or illiterate mothers? Mothering comes instinctually and no matter if you have money or can read..... it does not make a good mother.

I'll say one thing about Patsy...she was too lazy to discipline her children. That takes alot of work; teaching your children manners, not kicking or yelling at people, etc...

All Patsy cared about were outward appearances. Her little JonBenet was nothing but an object to her....JonBenet became Humpty Dumpty and had a great fall (sexual abuse)....and Patsy could not put her back together again.

 

[Mama-cita]

I can't imagine a mother , in this era of enlightenment, getting frustrated or upset over bedwetting. A poor, illiterate, perhaps, could get upset, others have materials to read, doctors to explain, all of the information they would need and realize it is not a personality problem or a failure on the part of a parent with training their child to toilet. As a mother, of one bedwetter, I KNEW, no one had to tell me, that this child slept differently and more deeply than the rest. This could however be a clue! Someone may have known how deeply Jonbenet slept! Not one of the other kids in my house could be carried in without awakening, but the bedwetter wouldn't, couldn't be awakened to walk in, and would never remember getting into bed.

Child abuse has knows no social strata. It does not discriminate. From the wealthy to the poor, from attorneys and doctors, to law enforcement officers, factoy workers and the unemployed. Yes, this may be the age of enlightenment. But when you have seen a baby beaten to oblivion because a sleep deprived parent could not get it to stop crying. In theory, all parents read all the literature, call support lines or relatives when they feel they are getting close to the edge and ready to harm their child. But most people don't utilize these resources, even if they are aware of them. I have seen highly educated women with advanced degrees and huge corporate jobs, who can make any business deal happen, arrested for shaking a child into a coma. She could make any business deal, she couldn't get her toddler to "listen". Please, generalizations that only the POOR and ILLITERATE beat their kids, couldn't be further from the truth. Maybe you see it more [in these populations], because they get caught more. In wealthier circles, it is likely to be concealed (with great effort) because the Ladies White Glove Society wouldn't likely sponsor "Buffy Blue-Blood's" membership if they knew she was beating the crap out of her kids, now would they?

 

[sissi]

That is one of the most backward statements I've read in a long time. Who are you to judge poor mother's or illiterate mothers? Mothering comes instinctually and no matter if you have money or can read..... it does not make a good mother.

I'll say one thing about Patsy...she was too lazy to discipline her children. That takes alot of work; teaching your children manners, not kicking or yelling at people, etc...

All Patsy cared about were outward appearances. Her little JonBenet was nothing but an object to her....JonBenet became Humpty Dumpty and had a great fall (sexual abuse)....and Patsy could not put her back together again.

Wow, you really don't like Patsy! Did you know her?
I live in a big, poor city, I see, everyday, what "lack of information" can do to parenting skills. I continue to see mothers putting their children to sleep on their tummys, is this kind of parenting not caused by lack of information? Many continue to believe bedwetting is a failure on their part or on the part of the child. Kids are beaten and humiliated every day for infractions based often on what the community views as offenses. As an example, recently, there were four young teens playing bicycle tag on the lawns and sidewalks. After seeing them break a small child's toy, and almost knock down this baby, I told the children to take their tag elsewhere. The mom approached me in the middle of the street, saying I had no right to speak to those children, we had words, I called the police to straighten her out on the sidewalk/bike laws, and it was over??? NO! Later that day, a knife wielding 14 yr old girl approached my daughter saying her mom's message was , no one "messes with her "boys".
These are the same kids that have been beaten for forgetting a loaf of bread on a store trip, for forgetting to say ma'am and sir. My sources are not clinical they are the reality.
There is NO proof that Jonbenet was sexually assaulted before the day of her murder. There is nothing in Patsy's past or present to indicate she was a bad mother.

 

[sissi]

Child abuse has knows no social strata. It does not discriminate. From the wealthy to the poor, from attorneys and doctors, to law enforcement officers, factoy workers and the unemployed. Yes, this may be the age of enlightenment. But when you have seen a baby beaten to oblivion because a sleep deprived parent could not get it to stop crying. In theory, all parents read all the literature, call support lines or relatives when they feel they are getting close to the edge and ready to harm their child. But most people don't utilize these resources, even if they are aware of them. I have seen highly educated women with advanced degrees and huge corporate jobs, who can make any business deal happen, arrested for shaking a child into a coma. She could make any business deal, she couldn't get her toddler to "listen". Please, generalizations that only the POOR and ILLITERATE beat their kids, couldn't be further from the truth. Maybe you see it more [in these populations], because they get caught more. In wealthier circles, it is likely to be concealed (with great effort) because the Ladies White Glove Society wouldn't likely sponsor "Buffy Blue-Blood's" membership if they knew she was beating the crap out of her kids, now would they?

I believe in numbers, statistically poverty is among the main contributors to violence.

 

[tipper]

>>[...]. Not only did she wet her bed, she had taken to wearing pull ups in the day time.
[...].

I know I've read that before. Do you have a source?

 

[BlueCrab]

There is NO proof that Jonbenet was sexually assaulted before the day of her murder.

sissi,

The autopsy report is rather convincing that prior vaginal abuse had likely taken place. For instance, the vagina membrane contained vascular congestion and chronic inflamation; and the hymen was eroded away except for a part of its rim; and the hymenal orifice measured about twice the size it should have.

During the 1998 interviews:

TOM HANEY: "Okay. Mrs. Ramsey, are you aware that there had been prior vaginal intrusion on JonBenet?"

PATSY RAMSEY: "No. I am not. Prior to the night she was killed?"

TOM HANEY: "Correct."

ELLIS ARMISTEAD: "To be fair, Tom, that's been a subject of debate in the newspaper whether or not she represented what is true as a fact. I don't want you to alarm my client too much here about whether or not it's absolutely a fact."

TOM HANEY: "And based on the reliable medical information that we have at this point, that is a fact."

BlueCrab

 

[tipper]

sissi,

The autopsy report is rather convincing that prior vaginal abuse had likely taken place. For instance, the vagina membrane contained vascular congestion and chronic inflamation; and the hymen was eroded away except for a part of its rim; and the hymenal orifice measured about twice the size it should have.

During the 1998 interviews:

TOM HANEY: "Okay. Mrs. Ramsey, are you aware that there had been prior vaginal intrusion on JonBenet?"

PATSY RAMSEY: "No. I am not. Prior to the night she was killed?"

TOM HANEY: "Correct."

ELLIS ARMISTEAD: "To be fair, Tom, that's been a subject of debate in the newspaper whether or not she represented what is true as a fact. I don't want you to alarm my client too much here about whether or not it's absolutely a fact."

TOM HANEY: "And based on the reliable medical information that we have at this point, that is a fact."

BlueCrab

My thought has always been that if the orifice was stretched as part of a post-mortem assault - it probably would remain at whatever size it was stretched to.

In PMPT it says the FBI didn't believe there was sexual abuse prior to the night of the murder.

Since we know they went hunting for someone who would say the "magic words" that Patsy wrote the ransom note, to quote ST's account of finding Foster. I have no confidence BPD didn't also shop for experts who would say the magic words about prior sexual abuse.

 

[narlacat]

I know I've read that before. Do you have a source?

Not off the top of my head Tipper. I will have a think! and try and remember...will come back and edit this when I remember.

 

[narlacat]

QUOTE>>I'll say one thing about Patsy...she was too lazy to discipline her children. That takes alot of work; teaching your children manners, not kicking or yelling at people, etc...<<

I agree Toltec. Patsy was lazy when it came to discipline. Maybe that is why JonBenet had such trouble with her toileting, Patsy didnt take the time to teach her properly.
LHP commented on how Burke and JonBenet would throw their clothes on the floor, along with everything else...toys....wood shavings from Burke whittling.....it was obvious Patsy had never taught her kids to pick up after themselves.
Patsy was too busy being a social butterfly to have the time to effectively parent her children.

 

[BlueCrab]

I have no confidence BPD didn't also shop for experts who would say the magic words about prior sexual abuse.

tipper,

There were seven well-known medical doctors who studied the autopsy report and the microscopic slides taken during the autopsy. Doctors:

David Jones,
James Monteleone,
John McCann'
Cyril Wecht, and
Ronald Wright

reported outright that prior sexual abuse had occurred. Doctors:

Richard Krugman, and
Werner Spitz

waffled in their reports but did not deny that sexual abuse had occurred. Krugman said that evidence other than physical findings was needed to make a determination; and Spitz said there was no clear indication of prior penetration.

 

[Nehemiah]

QUOTE>>I'll say one thing about Patsy...she was too lazy to discipline her children. That takes alot of work; teaching your children manners, not kicking or yelling at people, etc...<<

I agree Toltec. Patsy was lazy when it came to discipline. Maybe that is why JonBenet had such trouble with her toileting, Patsy didnt take the time to teach her properly.
LHP commented on how Burke and JonBenet would throw their clothes on the floor, along with everything else...toys....wood shavings from Burke whittling.....it was obvious Patsy had never taught her kids to pick up after themselves.
Patsy was too busy being a social butterfly to have the time to effectively parent her children.

Most of the parents I know anymore would fall into this category. Doesn't make it okay....but it sure is prevalent.

 

[tipper]

Most of the parents I know anymore would fall into this category. Doesn't make it okay....but it sure is prevalent.

On the other hand - everything I've heard says the kids were well behaved and polite. Of the two I'd rather have nice kids who were messy than tidy, rude kids.