Why would the Ramseys need to stage?

[DeeDee249]

Who else had

Access?

similar handwriting

knowledge of the floor plan

knowledge the alarm wasn't armed

how deeply JR slept

asked for money

disliked J

knowledge where she slept

where P would find note

knowledge of $118,000

had possessions of R's in her home including writing pads and felt tip pens

knowledge of rope

access to P's credit cards?

where secret room was

The parents?

 

[nobull]

We don't know FACTUALLY whether the crime was staged ...or NOT.

I don't know but this looks like it could be...

Yes it is...

A breakthrough.

Nah. No breakthrough here, just a quote being chopped up and taken out of context:

Yes, true. We are ALL speculating. We don't know FACTUALLY whether the crime was staged ...or NOT. But the opinions of professionals who see this kind of thing regularly mean a lot.

 

[WHITEFANG]

The parents?

Who else?

LHP?

 

[nobull]

Who else?

LHP?

Left Hand Path?
Limit of High Priority?
Left Handed Pitcher?

 

[BBB167893]

No, no, no. What is wrong with you?

Wrong with ME? You have got some brass!

This is the scheme the R's came up with to make their lives easier.
Sure, they could have done a zillion other things to hide the killing and their accountability, but they thought it best to fake strangulation, fake a kidnapping note, let her die right in front of them instead of seeking medical help. They had it all figured out to avoid detection and you can see how well their ideas worked. No one suspected them. No one bought the note. No one accepted the staging. So, it was really the R's fault that everything fell apart.

Fang, if you're going to attack my responses to other people, it might help to know what I was responding to. believe09 said:

Is it reasonable to assume the ligatures on her extremities and the paintbrush were anything other than staging?

That was a very specific question. It didn't involve alternate scenarios; it focused on two specific elements. And no, to me, it is not reasonable. You've got wrist ties that were so loose they slid right off with a length more than a foot between each arm. That wouldn't restrain a baby. And as I told Mastermind, the ligature design was impractical for someone with a motive, unless the idea was to lead her around like a dog. (Careful, SD! Might give this crowd ideas!) And that's not even mentioning the tape.

And just for my edification, I'm curious as to what you mean by "easier." I'm trying to keep the misunderstandings to a minimum.

Don't forget the key to understanding this murder mystery.

I don't think I'm the one who has forgotten.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

You've got wrist ties that were so loose they slid right off with a length more than a foot between each arm. That wouldn't restrain a baby.

I easily disagree with this statement on several points.

1. This description differs from JR's testimony which cannot be ruled invalid. Therefore your source comes into question. I would normally ask for your source: how do you know they were so loose they slid right off?
2. A length of more than a foot between each arm, rendering the 2nd ligature incapable of restraining a baby, is surprisingly simplistic and smacks of sarcasm, for someone who seems to be striving for excellence in the interpretation of the main pieces of evidence. The simple presence of a slip knot in the 2nd ligature makes your entire argument about 'the length more than a foot' a moot point.

I suggest re-evaluating your position on the 2nd ligature.

 

[DeeDee249]

I easily disagree with this statement on several points.

1. This description differs from JR's testimony which cannot be ruled invalid. Therefore your source comes into question. I would normally ask for your source: how do you know they were so loose they slid right off?
2. A length of more than a foot between each arm, rendering the 2nd ligature incapable of restraining a baby, is surprisingly simplistic and smacks of sarcasm, for someone who seems to be striving for excellence in the interpretation of the main pieces of evidence. The simple presence of a slip knot in the 2nd ligature makes your entire argument about 'the length more than a foot' a moot point.

I suggest re-evaluating your position on the 2nd ligature.

I believe the distance (about 17 inches) between the wrist ligatures was mentioned by the coroner, and it was Mayer who also mentioned that the ligature (on the right wrist) was loosely tied - this is on page 2 of the report. The right wrist with the ligature is seen in the autopsy photos just before the body was undressed for dissection.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

I believe the distance (about 17 inches) between the wrist ligatures was mentioned by the coroner, and it was Mayer who also mentioned that the ligature (on the right wrist) was loosely tied - this is on page 2 of the report. The right wrist with the ligature is seen in the autopsy photos just before the body was undressed for dissection.

I suggest joining SD in re-evaluating the 2nd ligature, as the observations by the coroner relate to the state of the 2nd ligature only after JR worked on it.

I believe the distance between the wrist ligatures isn't static. Why would you believe that this distance would be static, while the photo clearly shows a knot of the slip variety?

 

[DeeDee249]

I suggest joining SD in re-evaluating the 2nd ligature, as the observations by the coroner relate to the state of the 2nd ligature only after JR worked on it.

I believe the distance between the wrist ligatures isn't static. Why would you believe that this distance would be static, while the photo clearly shows a knot of the slip variety?

We have no proof JR worked on it. We have only his word. FW would have seen him do it. We all have our thoughts about why FW has not spoken more about whether he saw JR do the things he said he did, but none the less, he has not corroborated any of it. A slip knot doesn't move by itself, it has to be pulled. The distance between her hands is what is important, more so than the distance between the loops. The position of her hands, set by rigor, show that her hands were not pulled together, or they would still have been together, even if both wrist loops were removed. JR said her hands were tightly bound. Yet we know that was not the case because if it were, her hands would have been together even if JR removed the ligatures, and there are no ligature marks on her wrists.
If there is a distance between the loops that matches the distance between her hands, that would be an indication that the loops were put on her after rigor had fixed her arms in that position. Isn't it a shame no one ever measured to determine this?

 

[BBB167893]

I easily disagree with this statement on several points.

Okay.

This description differs from JR's testimony which cannot be ruled invalid.

Based on what? His statement can't be corroborated.

Therefore your source comes into question. I would normally ask for your source: how do you know they were so loose they slid right off?

The autopsy report, among other things. It contains everything I said, along with the complete lack of any marks on the wrists.

A length of more than a foot between each arm, rendering the 2nd ligature incapable of restraining a baby, is surprisingly simplistic and smacks of sarcasm, for someone who seems to be striving for excellence in the interpretation of the main pieces of evidence.

Not sarcasm, just being blunt. I appreciate the rest, though.

The simple presence of a slip knot in the 2nd ligature makes your entire argument about 'the length more than a foot' a moot point.

Moot? Are you kidding me? What evidence is there to suggest that how it was found wasn't the way it was?

I suggest re-evaluating your position on the 2nd ligature.

Duly noted.

 

[MurriFlower]

We have no proof JR worked on it. We have only his word. FW would have seen him do it. We all have our thoughts about why FW has not spoken more about whether he saw JR do the things he said he did, but none the less, he has not corroborated any of it. A slip knot doesn't move by itself, it has to be pulled. The distance between her hands is what is important, more so than the distance between the loops. The position of her hands, set by rigor, show that her hands were not pulled together, or they would still have been together, even if both wrist loops were removed. JR said her hands were tightly bound. Yet we know that was not the case because if it were, her hands would have been together even if JR removed the ligatures, and there are no ligature marks on her wrists.
If there is a distance between the loops that matches the distance between her hands, that would be an indication that the loops were put on her after rigor had fixed her arms in that position. Isn't it a shame no one ever measured to determine this?

This is an interesting point DD. I wondered if the distance was due to her hands being tied around an object (I thought maybe a chair), but as you I think it was pointed out, they were above her head and had 'set' that way in rigor mortis. So, we have to assume for whatever reason they were left in that position for some time after death. Perhaps it was because she was dragged by the arms to the position she was found in, but then the blanket wouldn't have still be on her and wouldn't this also leave 'drag' marks? I'm wondering if the IDI (don't expect you to agree here DD) tied up the hands after the head bash and before the strangle (thereby no struggle or ligature marks) for some weird reason, like in case she came to and tried to struggle? Was there something that her hands could have been tied around?

 

[DeeDee249]

This is an interesting point DD. I wondered if the distance was due to her hands being tied around an object (I thought maybe a chair), but as you I think it was pointed out, they were above her head and had 'set' that way in rigor mortis. So, we have to assume for whatever reason they were left in that position for some time after death. Perhaps it was because she was dragged by the arms to the position she was found in, but then the blanket wouldn't have still be on her and wouldn't this also leave 'drag' marks? I'm wondering if the IDI (don't expect you to agree here DD) tied up the hands after the head bash and before the strangle (thereby no struggle or ligature marks) for some weird reason, like in case she came to and tried to struggle? Was there something that her hands could have been tied around?

I am not sure I am understanding you, but...it isn't a matter of her hands being "left that way" after death. Whatever position her hands were in they would have been "frozen" that way once rigor formed. I don't see any evidence of her being dragged by the hands. If that happened, her arms would have remained straight up over her head (and they weren't). Also, there would be evidence she was dragged in the white mold that was on the wineceller floor (and thick enough to make footprints in).
I don't see anything (at least from the photos) that she was tied around something and the lack of any mark on her wrists tell me that the wrist loops had not restrained her. There would be marks regardless of when they were applied, before or after death, before or after strangulation/head bash.
There is also one thing more about her arms. Any medical people here please offer a comment: when someone has a serious head injury, rigor mortis PULLS and curves the arms and hands up and into a position like the one JB was in when she was brought up. It is not always an indication that the position of the arms had anything to do with what caused the death or the position they were left in at death. Feet and toes are affected, too.
There were crime scene photos from "48 Hours" posted on the web of the body of the poor Peruvian girl killed by Joran Van Der Sloot. There is a small, round red mark on her chin remarkably like the marks on JB's cheek. But more on the matter of rigor mortis, there is a photo of her feet- the toes and feet curved in an unnatural position. This doesn't mean she it happened while she was killed, or before she died. It means that rigor mortis caused it. The process of rigor causes the muscles to ratchet tighter and tighter, contracting but not relaxing. It s a biochemical process, and the calcium ions can no longer move freely in and out of the cell walls- lactic acid takes over, and lack of oxygen and absence of glycogen are responsible. My point in saying this is that we spend a lot of time discussing the position of JB's arms, and it may be nothing more than the natural process of rigor mortis advancing that pulled them into that position.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Moot? Are you kidding me? What evidence is there to suggest that how it was found wasn't the way it was?

It seems to me that you're expecting too much, drawing too many conclusions beyond what is reasonable from the effects of rigor. As if its a photo at the finish line or something.

Rigor 'sets in' at some hours after death. That means the position JBR was finally left in is more or less the position shes in at rigor.

What you obviously don't know is all the positions JBR was in throughout the entire night. Its not rocket science to figure that the 2nd ligature had a big role in the beginning and the need for it was obviously eliminated upon her death. Unless you believe JBR was somehow a willing participant?

Thats right, after JBR was dead, the 2nd ligature would no longer have a purpose. Free to be loosened or whatever.

Now lets look at your assumption or implied statement: During the time between JBR's death and full rigor, the 2nd ligature was never loosened and the position of the arms were never changed.

In presenting your answers, its crystal clear to me the assumptions you're making.

 

[BBB167893]

It seems to me that you're expecting too much, drawing too many conclusions beyond what is reasonable from the effects of rigor. As if its a photo at the finish line or something.

The photo's what we've got, man.

Rigor 'sets in' at some hours after death. That means the position JBR was finally left in is more or less the position shes in at rigor.

Right.

What you obviously don't know is all the positions JBR was in throughout the entire night.

I suppose not.

Its not rocket science to figure that the 2nd ligature had a big role in the beginning and the need for it was obviously eliminated upon her death.

Rocket science or not, it's a pretty big leap to think that it played any role other than window-dressing.

Unless you believe JBR was somehow a willing participant?

I'm not TOUCHING that one, HOTYH.

Thats right, after JBR was dead, the 2nd ligature would no longer have a purpose. Free to be loosened or whatever.

That's my point, HOTYH: it most likely wasn't put on until AFTER she was dead. What purpose would it serve to put it on a dead body?

Now lets look at your assumption or implied statement: During the time between JBR's death and full rigor, the 2nd ligature was never loosened and the position of the arms were never changed.

You're half-right. I never said the position of the arms wasn't changed after her death.

In presenting your answers, its crystal clear to me the assumptions you're making.

I should hope it's clear by now.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

You're half-right. I never said the position of the arms wasn't changed after her death.

I guess then you believe JR/PR deliberately tied JBR up in a rather unrestraining and unconvincing way?

I think people would sooner believe JBR was tied up because something was happening against her will--which is normally when people get tied up.

Sometimes an orange is just an orange, SD.

 

[MurriFlower]

I guess then you believe JR/PR tied JBR up in a rather unrestraining and unconvincing way?

I think people would sooner believe JBR was tied up because something was happening against her will--which is normally when people get tied up.

Sometimes an orange is just an orange, SD.

Or sometimes it's a peach.

How about this? Her arms were tied around her?? Like a straight jacket? The blanket was wrapped papoose style around that and secured with tape. Restrained but not enough to leave marks.

After she was unconscious or dead, the blanket was loosened, her arms were then pulled up over her head with the ligatures still attached?

 

[BBB167893]

I guess then you believe JR/PR deliberately tied JBR up in a rather unrestraining and unconvincing way?

Unrestraining and unconvincing? Yes. Deliberately? I'd have to say not.

I think people would sooner believe JBR was tied up because something was happening against her will--which is normally when people get tied up.

I can tell you from personal experience that I'm sure people would rather believe that, HOTYH. In many ways, I think that's part of the problem.

Sometimes an orange is just an orange, SD.

I wish I had a nickel for every time I've said that.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Or sometimes it's a peach.

How about this? Her arms were tied around her?? Like a straight jacket? The blanket was wrapped papoose style around that and secured with tape. Restrained but not enough to leave marks.

After she was unconscious or dead, the blanket was loosened, her arms were then pulled up over her head with the ligatures still attached?

I suggest looking at the photo of the 2nd ligature. Note the slipknot and three loops. This is too elaborate for a behind the back wrist tie. There's more to it that we don't understand, and probably aren't going to understand.

There's more to the 2nd ligature because its too elaborate for simple wrists tied-behind-the-back regardless of real or staging.

 

[MurriFlower]

I suggest looking at the photo of the 2nd ligature. Note the slipknot and three loops. This is too elaborate for a behind the back wrist tie. There's more to it that we don't understand, and probably aren't going to understand.

There's more to the 2nd ligature because its too elaborate for simple wrists tied-behind-the-back regardless of real or staging.

Not behind her, arms crossed in front, with the 17 inches of ligature length between them around her back, tightened with the 'elaborate' slip knot, like a straight jacket.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Not behind her, arms crossed in front, with the 17 inches of ligature length between them around her back, tightened with the 'elaborate' slip knot, like a straight jacket.

If the 17 inches (or 14 inches seems closer) matches up for length, and if the two loops in the lower right section is simply where the detectives or JR or somebody else had loosened the knot up for two loops, then I'll agree with you.

Otherwise I'm thinking all three loops were used.

The upper left loop knot looks fixed to me (not a slipknot), and at 2" in diameter seems too large for her wrist. Thats almost 7" in circumference.

http://www.acandyrose.com/garrote5.jpg