Just a minute. Before embarking on another endless road of babble and bunk, let's make sure we do share that basic understanding you desire. Describe once more your belief in the Marilyn Monroe reincarnation theory and the DISSD hypothesis. (Dual, Instantaneous, Simultaneous, Symbiotic Dissociation, in case you've forgotten.)
Why would the Ramseys need to stage?
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Just a minute. Before embarking on another endless road of babble and bunk, let's make sure we do share that basic understanding you desire. Describe once more your belief in the Marilyn Monroe reincarnation theory and the DISSD hypothesis. (Dual, Instantaneous, Simultaneous, Symbiotic Dissociation, in case you've forgotten.)
MurriFlower
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I was just using your term of an "elaborate slip knot". The bottom one, the littler loop, if you pulled it, straight bit between the two wrist knots would shorten?
Was that a 'click' I just heard as a piece fell into place?
MurriFlower
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Do you know the diameter or are you guessing? The measure is in cm.
MurriFlower
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Just read this again DD, I think you will find that the coroner said she 'was lying on her back with her arms extended up over her head'.
This is also the bit where he said he located the body at approx 8.20 pm and left the residence at approx 8.30pm. He must be proud of the thorough examination he was able to make in that big ole 10 minute, including crib time. What a professional!! And we wonder why it's 14 years and still this murder isn't solved?
http://www.acandyrose.com/12271996jonbenet02.gif
MurriFlower
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This has been troubling me right from the start DD, so you know I do think about these things. It has suddenly struck me that she was just 'tied to herself'.
The ligature with the length of cord between the wrist ties makes me think she was secured as you would someone in a straight jacket. The arms (folded) crossed across the chest, the cord around one wrist taken behind her back and tied to the other wrist. The slip knot to take up any slack and keep it taught, but not tight enough to leave marks. Then the blanket she was found in was wrapped around her and secured with duct tape, so she was not able to move, therefore she couldn't struggle.
MurriFlower
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Yes, restrained definately. Yes, deliberately. Just cause you can't see it doesn't mean it didn't happen.
You and your nickels.
You and your oranges.
You and your glib responses.
(Chuck in a couple of ducks and you're all done)
Holdontoyourhat
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Right, the measure is in cm, I used a drafting tool with scaling.
believe09
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This is interesting-I always assumed that she was tied after or shortly before death. Because there were no marks on her skin.
Sorry a few more thoughts-what child would sit still for this? And who would know how to tie her in this fashion?
Holdontoyourhat
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I believe the straight bit would probably shorten, yes.
There are two ways to tie a simple slip knot. One way, the slip portion goes to the end of the cord. Anyone could simply pull their wrist free. The other way as you pull the center straight section the wrist loop gets smaller/tighter while the straight section gets longer.
The total circumference of the two loop section on lower right adds up to the 7" circumference (approx. 2" dia) of the larger loop. It seems likely that the two loops used to be one large loop, the same size as the other end.
14" straight section seems about right for your straight-jacket scenario, where the slip knot was applied first, the center section pulled tight, and fixed loop then tied around the 2nd wrist. How is anyone going to leave marks if they can't move their wrists/arms?
With a few exceptions outlined below, rigor mortis freezes position, it does not change it.
No measurable shortening of muscle occurs during rigor mortis unless the muscles are subjected to tension. When rigor is fully developed, the joints of the body become fixed, and the state of flexion or extension of these joints depends upon the position of the trunk and limbs at the time of death. If the body is supine then the large joints of the limbs become slightly flexed during the development of rigor. The joints of the fingers and toes are often markedly flexed due to the shortening of the muscles of the forearms and legs. Since significant muscle shortening is not a normal concomitant of rigor, it is unlikely that rigor mortis would cause any significant change in the attitude adopted by the corpse at death. The view that the development of rigor mortis could produce significant movements of the body was promoted by Sommer, in about 1833, and the postulated movements became known as "Sommer's movements". (Ref. 10 at page 17). It is now accepted that movements of a corpse due to the development of rigor mortis can only occur in special circumstances, such as an extreme position of the body at the moment of death. If a body is moved before the onset of rigor then the joints will become fixed in the new position in which the body is placed. For this reason, when a body is found in a certain position with rigor mortis fully developed, it cannot be assumed that the deceased necessarily died in that position. Conversely, if the body is maintained by rigor in a position not obviously associated with support of the body, then it can be concluded that the body was moved after rigor mortis had developed.
http://www.dundee.ac.uk/forensicmedicine/notes/timedeath.pdf
Rigor mortis is probably more useful to the investigator in determining whether or not the scene or the body has been disturbed since the death. Rigor mortis itself usually does not change the position of the body. The body merely stiffens in the exact position in which is it lying. Even a person who has died a very painful or dramatic death, will relax as they lose consciousness prior to death. The body should be in a relaxed position consistent with the cause and mechanism of death, if it has not been disturbed.
Intense heat in the environment, however, can change the position of the body. It is common in the case of fire deaths, or of a body subjected to intense heat after death, for the muscles to contract due to radical drying of the tissues. This causes a characteristic "pugilistic attitude" (arms and legs drawn into a boxer's stance) regardless of the original position of the body.
http://dmmoyle.com/didig.htm
Former Ramsey housekeeper Linda Hoffmann-Pugh, speaking publicly for the first time about her testimony before the Boulder County grand jury, told reporters Thursday:
* The grand jury seemed to zero in on Patsy Ramsey, and she thought it would indict her.
You are not serious!
* A Swiss Army knife was found in the basement room where JonBenet's body was found.
* "Only Patsy could have put that knife there. I took it away from Burke (JonBenet's older brother) and hid it in a linen closet near JonBenet's bedroom. An intruder never would have found it. Patsy would have found it getting out clean sheets."
How about you?
(Hold it right there. She said she told Pat where she hid it.)
* The blanket wrapped around JonBenet's body had been left in the dryer. There was still a Barbie Doll nightgown clinging to the blanket, so it had to have come out of the dryer recently, she said. Only Patsy would have known it was in the dryer, she said.
What about you?
* An intruder never would have found the door to the basement room where JonBenet's body was discovered. It was too difficult to see unless someone knew it was there, she said.
You knew, though, right?
* The grand jury seemed to zero in on Patsy Ramsey, and she thought it would indict her.
You are not serious!
* A Swiss Army knife was found in the basement room where JonBenet's body was found.
* "Only Patsy could have put that knife there. I took it away from Burke (JonBenet's older brother) and hid it in a linen closet near JonBenet's bedroom. An intruder never would have found it. Patsy would have found it getting out clean sheets."
How about you?
(Hold it right there. She said she told Pat where she hid it.)
* The blanket wrapped around JonBenet's body had been left in the dryer. There was still a Barbie Doll nightgown clinging to the blanket, so it had to have come out of the dryer recently, she said. Only Patsy would have known it was in the dryer, she said.
What about you?
* An intruder never would have found the door to the basement room where JonBenet's body was discovered. It was too difficult to see unless someone knew it was there, she said.
You knew, though, right?
Of course she knew all these things, she was their housekeeper!
Most telling, however, is that she was never considered a suspect. Why?
Among other things:
http://www.acandyrose.com/04112000thomas-pg73-74.htm
Steve Thomas book, "JonBenet, Inside the Ramsey murder investigation"
Quotes from Page 73-74
Page 73-74
"Chet Ubowski at the CBI had pulled startling information from the tablet belonging to patsy Ramsey. By comparing tear patterns, Ubowski had determined that the first twelve pages were missing and the next four - pages 13 through 16 - contained doodles and lists and some miscellaneous writing."
"But the next group of pages, 17 through 25, were also missing from the tablet. The following page, 26, was the practice ransom note (Mr. and Mrs. I), and that page showed evidence of ink bleedthrough from the missing page 25."
"Comparisons of the ragged tops of the ransom note pages with the remnants left in the tablet proved that it had come from pages 27, 28, and 29."
"Furthermore, the ink bleedthrough discovered on page 26 indicated that perhaps still another practice note could have been writtenon page 25 and been discarded. Two possible practice notes and one real one covering three pages led me to believe that the killer had spend more time in the house composing the ransom note than we originally thought."
"But even more significant, it seemed clear that whoever wrote it was unafraid of being caught in the house. We never found the missing pages."
------
Or, perhaps it was the infamous "non-reward":
http://www.acandyrose.com/s-evidence-reward.htm
"The Boulder County Crime Stoppers is coordinating a reward of up to $100,000 for information related to the homicide investigation. Under a pending agreement, the Ramsey family and others will place this reward money with the Boulder County Crime Stoppers program. The Boulder County Crime Stoppers is a non-profit corporation which assists police by anonymously gathering information on crimes."
"Patsy Ramsey: "Some of you may have seen the ad that we place in our local Daily Camera newspaper this past weekend. This reward money has been offered since the death of JonBenet, but we felt like it wasn't getting out to the public enough. So this ad with her most recent kindergarten picture will be appearing more and more frequently. And what we want to let everyone know is that this $100,000 reward is for information leading to the arrest and conviction of the killer of our daughter. We feel that there are at least two people on the face of this earth that know who did this, and that is the killer and someone that that person may have confided in."
"Patsy and I guaranteed a reward of one hundred thousand dollars for information leading to the arrest and conviction of the person or persons who killed our daughter. Perhaps a role of the foundation could be to offer substantial rewards for unsolved child killings with a staffed resource center to solicit tips. Money has a way of making people talk."
"Brigid posted that she received an E-mail, dated 8/7/01, from Larry Wieda of Crimestoppers:
"Good Morning!
I'm not sure as to what the question or the concerns are, but there is no reward being offered by Boulder County Crime Stoppers. There was an agreement that was settled with the Ramesy's after they used our name and program without our permission. The Fund was supposed to be set up by the Ramsey's and as we understand it never was.
The Bottom Line is, Boulder County Crime Stoppers did not or never has offered a reward of $100,000. It, BCCS, agreed to administer the reward offered by the Ramsey's from their JonBonet Reward Foundation which was to be set up by them at the time the articles were released and without the permission of BCCS.
If you are or were interested in the reward you must contact the Ramsey's for any further information.
Officer Larry Wieda
Boulder County Crime Stoppers Coordinator"
Most telling, however, is that she was never considered a suspect. Why?
Among other things:
http://www.acandyrose.com/04112000thomas-pg73-74.htm
Steve Thomas book, "JonBenet, Inside the Ramsey murder investigation"
Quotes from Page 73-74
Page 73-74
"Chet Ubowski at the CBI had pulled startling information from the tablet belonging to patsy Ramsey. By comparing tear patterns, Ubowski had determined that the first twelve pages were missing and the next four - pages 13 through 16 - contained doodles and lists and some miscellaneous writing."
"But the next group of pages, 17 through 25, were also missing from the tablet. The following page, 26, was the practice ransom note (Mr. and Mrs. I), and that page showed evidence of ink bleedthrough from the missing page 25."
"Comparisons of the ragged tops of the ransom note pages with the remnants left in the tablet proved that it had come from pages 27, 28, and 29."
"Furthermore, the ink bleedthrough discovered on page 26 indicated that perhaps still another practice note could have been writtenon page 25 and been discarded. Two possible practice notes and one real one covering three pages led me to believe that the killer had spend more time in the house composing the ransom note than we originally thought."
"But even more significant, it seemed clear that whoever wrote it was unafraid of being caught in the house. We never found the missing pages."
------
Or, perhaps it was the infamous "non-reward":
http://www.acandyrose.com/s-evidence-reward.htm
"The Boulder County Crime Stoppers is coordinating a reward of up to $100,000 for information related to the homicide investigation. Under a pending agreement, the Ramsey family and others will place this reward money with the Boulder County Crime Stoppers program. The Boulder County Crime Stoppers is a non-profit corporation which assists police by anonymously gathering information on crimes."
"Patsy Ramsey: "Some of you may have seen the ad that we place in our local Daily Camera newspaper this past weekend. This reward money has been offered since the death of JonBenet, but we felt like it wasn't getting out to the public enough. So this ad with her most recent kindergarten picture will be appearing more and more frequently. And what we want to let everyone know is that this $100,000 reward is for information leading to the arrest and conviction of the killer of our daughter. We feel that there are at least two people on the face of this earth that know who did this, and that is the killer and someone that that person may have confided in."
"Patsy and I guaranteed a reward of one hundred thousand dollars for information leading to the arrest and conviction of the person or persons who killed our daughter. Perhaps a role of the foundation could be to offer substantial rewards for unsolved child killings with a staffed resource center to solicit tips. Money has a way of making people talk."
"Brigid posted that she received an E-mail, dated 8/7/01, from Larry Wieda of Crimestoppers:
"Good Morning!
I'm not sure as to what the question or the concerns are, but there is no reward being offered by Boulder County Crime Stoppers. There was an agreement that was settled with the Ramesy's after they used our name and program without our permission. The Fund was supposed to be set up by the Ramsey's and as we understand it never was.
The Bottom Line is, Boulder County Crime Stoppers did not or never has offered a reward of $100,000. It, BCCS, agreed to administer the reward offered by the Ramsey's from their JonBonet Reward Foundation which was to be set up by them at the time the articles were released and without the permission of BCCS.
If you are or were interested in the reward you must contact the Ramsey's for any further information.
Officer Larry Wieda
Boulder County Crime Stoppers Coordinator"
DeeDee, you're describing decorticate or decerebrate posturing associated with a traumatic brain injury. It's a common and very telling indicator of a grave brain injury. This posturing occurs before death. Rigor would make it more pronounced.
http://www.paramedicine.com/pmc/AVPU_files/droppedImage.jpg
It results in pretty specific body configuration, and definitely does not resemble the position of JBR.
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZUE2Dvf1Q4[/ame]
I don't agree that the blanket was secured with duct tape. For one, there was no duct tape other than the one small piece found that had been on her mouth. This is something that IDI points out repeatedly (that there was no other duct tape, specifically-any remaining roll). Then, there is the fact that FW would have also seen this duct tape on the blanket, and actually JR never mentioned seeing the blanket secured in this way. If JR brought her up without the blanket, and the blanket was left behind in the wineceller, the duct tape would have to be there too. And then the blanket would have had residue from the tape.
She didn't struggle after she was wrapped in the blanket because she was already dead.
Urine stains were on the anterior (front) of the longjohns and panties- she was on her stomach when she voided her bladder that last time, most likely at death. Yet, she was on her back when found wrapped in the blanket. No corresponding urine was found on the blanket. There were urine stains on the basement carpet. I feel she died there, and the position of the garrote indicates it was tightened from behind as she lay on her stomach. That is when her bladder released. Then the blanket was pulled from the dryer (with the pink nylon nightie stuck to it), the blanket laid on the WC floor and JB laid on the blanket, which was pulled up around her torso, with her head and lower legs exposed.
It depends upon when the photos were taken, cynic. Remember the rigor curve.
There were no photos of JBR in rigor available to the public, at least not that I'm aware of.
I was referring to the depiction of her with her arms straight and over her head. That is not representative of decorticate or decerebrate posturing.
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