GUILTY WI - 12-Year-Old Girls Stab Friend 19 Times for Slenderman, Waukesha, 31 May 2014 #2

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yes, if there was encouragement from someone specific or just trolls in general I would like to know because to me it could greatly factor into my feeling of whether these girls suffered from diminished capacity.

We have all experienced grown ^$$ people who read something on the internet and simply by the virtue of it being on the internet and being perpetuated by other less than informed people believe with all their hearts that it is true.

So why is are a couple of 12 years olds to know different?

Just a thought.

I am absolutely not making excuses for either girl. I am taking each girl separately and trying very hard to really evaluate whether I feel each is mature enough to be in adult court.

As I said way early in this thread. Each child develops and matures differently. I firmly believe that.

NO MATTER WHAT these girls need serious consequences and jail time for this crime. I just want to make sure that the case against each is evaluated on its own merits and that justice is done ultimately for the victim in this case.

Neither of these girls needs to see freedom for a long while IMO. But how long is determined by which court they are tried in and so yeah, it's big deal to me that they are tried in whichever court is appropriate for each girl.

I am very much in agreement with everything you say in the bolded. Trying children as adults is to me counter-intuitive to the point of pointlessness. Lock them up as dangers to society and throw away the key? Punishment yes but with in-depth study and analysis by psychologists, with treatment and education with a view to eventual rehabilitation and redemption by positive reinforcement of the concepts of right and wrong and, of course, reality and fantasy. I'm convinced that these girls knew what they were doing was wrong but I'm not so sure they were fully cognisant of the consequences and implications of their actions.This was a child's crime perpetrated by children on another child and to approach it in the same manner we would a similar adult situation is to lose whatever opportunities there might be to understand, address and perhaps prevent similar instances going forward.
 
Me too. I just want that decision to be based solely on each child's case merits. If it happens for a lot of offenders I want to feel confident these girls have the same un media biased chance as any without public perception based on scandalous headlines this case is receiving as opposed to those who are equally serious but not the "case Du Jour"

That is just where my head is at the moment.

Thanks for the chance to hash this out respectfully.

Definitely. Their age merits a judge hearing both sides, and coming to a decision. (Or whoever decides that in their state.) If he doesn't, they will just get that on appeals anyway I'm sure. Better to do it correctly from the beginning.
 
this was a good read

Of course, we have to factor into the two knife attacks mental disturbance and the hysteria of youth: Slender Man did not drive these girls to do what they did so much as provide a context or even an excuse. But occultists would insist that he is also an Egregore, a being that emerges from a collective insanity and which develops a truth of its own. In a fascinating essay, E Antony Gray calls the idea of Slender Man “positively Lovecraftian” (ie, something imagined into existence). If, as the mystics often believe, reality is simply what we perceive it to be – it is the creation of thought – then thinking an alternative strongly enough can make that alternative true. On a rational, empirical level this is pure hokum. But on a psychological level it is undeniable that certain concepts have the power to affect the way that people behave – producing emotional or even physiological change. We might call the alternate reality that they create for themselves “madness”. It may well be so, but it is still disturbingly powerful and can affect the lives of the people around them.

Those who think men physically transform into wolves during the full moon are deluded. But the hyper-realists who refuse to acknowledge the power of ideas are fools. The wise understand GK Chesterton’s dictum that, “When men choose not to believe in God, they do not thereafter believe in nothing, they then become capable of believing in anything.” A culture uncertain fully of what it believes will believe in monsters like the Slender Man.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/t...he-slender-man-myth-became-a-violent-reality/
 
I'm also thinking the age of the girls plays a huge role.Just turning 12 is the most awkward time in life,the age where you soon will be inevitable thrust into certain groups. Insecurities are rampant .IMO MG grew up where her creativity and individuality was encouraged and honestly I'm having a very hard time believing she was this budding sociopath or mentally ill.I see her in tender pictures with her cat so it really,really kills me to imagine what could have led to her doing something so horrific.PL seems like a girl who could easily become one of the popular crowd,she's pretty ,into pop culture IMO and AW seems the opposite.IMO she is definitely the one that would have been labeled "weird" in high school and maybe her resentment ,hatred and anger about this was already developing.She introduced MG to Slenderman and MG was friends with PL for a long time.Maybe PL thought the whole Slenderman thing was ridiculous and was making fun of them about their obsession.Again in no way,shape or form am I trying to put part of the blame on the victim or am I trying to make excuses for the girls I'm just trying to speculate what could have went on in their heads to do something so horrific without even feeling remorse.
 
I'm also thinking the age of the girls plays a huge role.Just turning 12 is the most awkward time in life,the age where you soon will be inevitable thrust into certain groups. Insecurities are rampant .IMO MG grew up where her creativity and individuality was encouraged and honestly I'm having a very hard time believing she was this budding sociopath or mentally ill.I see her in tender pictures with her cat so it really,really kills me to imagine what could have led to her doing something so horrific.PL seems like a girl who could easily become one of the popular crowd,she's pretty ,into pop culture IMO and AW seems the opposite.IMO she is definitely the one that would have been labeled "weird" in high school and maybe her resentment ,hatred and anger about this was already developing.She introduced MG to Slenderman and MG was friends with PL for a long time.Maybe PL thought the whole Slenderman thing was ridiculous and was making fun of them about their obsession.Again in no way,shape or form am I trying to put part of the blame on the victim or am I trying to make excuses for the girls I'm just trying to speculate what could have went on in their heads to do something so horrific without even feeling remorse.

I really think the relationship between the two girls, is key. I think there was simply a deadly chemistry there. I think they became friends and the victim became a threat to what they shared. I'm not sure slenderman really factors in their relationship with her, at all.
 
this was a good read

Of course, we have to factor into the two knife attacks mental disturbance and the hysteria of youth: Slender Man did not drive these girls to do what they did so much as provide a context or even an excuse. But occultists would insist that he is also an Egregore, a being that emerges from a collective insanity and which develops a truth of its own. In a fascinating essay, E Antony Gray calls the idea of Slender Man “positively Lovecraftian” (ie, something imagined into existence). If, as the mystics often believe, reality is simply what we perceive it to be – it is the creation of thought – then thinking an alternative strongly enough can make that alternative true. On a rational, empirical level this is pure hokum. But on a psychological level it is undeniable that certain concepts have the power to affect the way that people behave – producing emotional or even physiological change. We might call the alternate reality that they create for themselves “madness”. It may well be so, but it is still disturbingly powerful and can affect the lives of the people around them.

Those who think men physically transform into wolves during the full moon are deluded. But the hyper-realists who refuse to acknowledge the power of ideas are fools. The wise understand GK Chesterton’s dictum that, “When men choose not to believe in God, they do not thereafter believe in nothing, they then become capable of believing in anything.” A culture uncertain fully of what it believes will believe in monsters like the Slender Man.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/t...he-slender-man-myth-became-a-violent-reality/

Fascinating and insightful reading in both article and the linked essay.
 
no one has mentioned the age of reason is 7, yes 7 is when you know right from wrong.
 
I'm also thinking the age of the girls plays a huge role.Just turning 12 is the most awkward time in life,the age where you soon will be inevitable thrust into certain groups. Insecurities are rampant .IMO MG grew up where her creativity and individuality was encouraged and honestly I'm having a very hard time believing she was this budding sociopath or mentally ill.I see her in tender pictures with her cat so it really,really kills me to imagine what could have led to her doing something so horrific.PL seems like a girl who could easily become one of the popular crowd,she's pretty ,into pop culture IMO and AW seems the opposite.IMO she is definitely the one that would have been labeled "weird" in high school and maybe her resentment ,hatred and anger about this was already developing.She introduced MG to Slenderman and MG was friends with PL for a long time.Maybe PL thought the whole Slenderman thing was ridiculous and was making fun of them about their obsession.Again in no way,shape or form am I trying to put part of the blame on the victim or am I trying to make excuses for the girls I'm just trying to speculate what could have went on in their heads to do something so horrific without even feeling remorse.

BBM. I don;t think you are trying to blame the victim at all, and I completely agree with your assessment. I think PL was possibly giving the other 2 all kinds of heck a-la "SRSLY? SLENDERMAN? Grow up!!" and they just did not take kindly to it.
 
of course a 12 year old knows killing is wrong.So unless they are really emotionless sociopaths or completely insane something convinced them PL somehow deserved her fate IMO
 
no one has mentioned the age of reason is 7, yes 7 is when you know right from wrong.


Not legally. So far as I know the Catholic Church recognizes 7 as the "age of reason", at which point they can assent to and understand receiving sacraments, and in some cases be morally responsible for certain acts. But even the church recognizes this is not a hard and fast rule, and this certainly isn't the age the law recognizes as adult.


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Not legally. So far as I know the Catholic Church recognizes 7 as the "age of reason", at which point they can assent to and understand receiving sacraments, and in some cases be morally responsible for certain acts. But even the church recognizes this is not a hard and fast rule, and this certainly isn't the age the law recognizes as adult.


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At about 7, fears are no longer of monsters, but of real people, and most of all of not being liked, being different, and risking loneliness. Pride and shame are real now too. Real, rather than simply imagined achievement, enhances self-esteem. Oddly enough, I seem to remember the moment before I crossed over that line. In kindergarten, I was in awe of the older kids who were "Safety Patrols." They wore arm badges, in the school colors, marking their special status. At 5, I thought nothing more was needed to be so privileged than a badge. So I made one myself. The jig was quickly up when my parents recognized my "handiwork." Fortunately, they saved me from embarrassment in school. The badge was set aside for pretend play at home. A year or two later, even the private memory of all that was embarrassing. And incidentally, when I did become a patrol, the magic of the status had vanished — transformed into the merely mundane, since by then, despite myself, I had crossed over into the age of reason.

Once that happens, children are able to compromise, accept differences in status, and therefore make and maintain friendships. Many can even lose a game without mortification, and can respect the rules of the game. They can say, "I am sorry" and mean it, further solidifying friendships.

http://www.scholastic.com/browse/article.jsp?id=7241

The age of reason, also called the age of discretion, is the age at which children attain the use of reason and begin to have moral responsibility. On completion of the seventh year a minor is presumed to have the use of reason,[3] but mental retardation or insanity prevent some individuals from ever attaining the use of reason. The term "use of reason" appears in the Code of Canon Law 17 times, but "age of reason" does not appear.[4] However, the term "age of reason" is used in canon law commentaries such as the New Commentary on the Code of Canon Law published by Paulist Press in 2002.

Children who do not have the use of reason and the mentally handicapped are sometimes called "innocents" because of their inability to commit sins: even if their actions are objectively sinful, they sometimes lack capacity for subjective guilt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_reason_(canon_law)#Age_of_Reason

The name given to that period of human life at which persons are deemed to begin to be morally responsible. This, as a rule, happens at the age of seven, or thereabouts, though the use of reason requisite for moral discernment may come before, or may be delayed until notably after, that time. At this age Christians come under the operation of ecclesiastical laws, such as the precept of assistance at Mass on Sundays and holydays, abstinence from meat on certain days, and annual confessions, should they have incurred mortal sin. The obligation of Easter Communion literally understood applies to all who have reached "the years of discretion"; but according to the practical interpretation of the Church it is not regarded as binding children just as soon as they are seven years old. At the age of reason a person is juridically considered eligible to act as witness to a marriage, as sponsor at baptism or confirmation, and as a party to the formal contract of betrothal; at this age one is considered capable of receiving extreme unction, of being promoted to first tonsure and minor orders, of being the incumbent of a simple benefice (beneficium simplex) if the founder of it should have so provided; and, lastly, is held liable to ecclesiastical censures. In the present discipline, however, persons do not incur these penalties until they reach the age of puberty, unless explicitly included in the decree imposing them. The only censure surely applicable to persons of this age is for the violation of the clausura of nuns, while that for the maltreatment, suadente diabolo, of clerics is probably so.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01209a.htm

Thank you gardenlady, for an interesting view on where some of our societal views on this issue of culpability and moral understanding may stem from. I have enjoyed researching this viewpoint on moral culpability and the Catholic church. I am not Catholic but try to learn as much about each spiritual POV as possible because I often find bits here and pieces there that make sense to me personally.
 
That a child the age of 10 can be tried as an Adult in this country is a mentality that is approaching Barbarism.

Just my opinion.
 
I really think the relationship between the two girls, is key. I think there was simply a deadly chemistry there. I think they became friends and the victim became a threat to what they shared. I'm not sure slenderman really factors in their relationship with her, at all.

Agreed. The relationship between the attackers is key because both agreed to attack the victim and as far as we know neither attacker said---STOP, what are we doing, lets not hurt her etc. There is some type bond between these 2.
Someone a few pages back suggested the 3 girl thing could be a part of this.
I'm a woman and have raised females. Two girls can be friends.... a 3rd girls throws a wrench into things. imho
 
This will really be an interesting case t0 follow

I want to see each girl handled separately by her merits, I want to understand each's case, I want each prosecution to address each case.

Most of all I sincerely hope I get to know what was behind each girl's DECISION to stab their "friend" 19 times and leave her for dead.
 
Someone a few pages back suggested the 3 girl thing could be a part of this.
I'm a woman and have raised females. Two girls can be friends.... a 3rd girls throws a wrench into things. imho
RSBM
Omg this is soooo true! I've been a part of a couple "trios" of best girl friends and one person is always a tiny bit on the outs, not quite as close as the other two, creating a quite interesting dynamic… very interesting food for thought, as I doubt we will ever truly know
 
This will really be an interesting case t0 follow

I want to see each girl handled separately by her merits, I want to understand each's case, I want each prosecution to address each case.

Most of all I sincerely hope I get to know what was behind each girl's DECISION to stab their "friend" 19 times and leave her for dead.

I agree. I have a suspicion that each girl has very different reasoning and head spaces.
 
Agreed. The relationship between the attackers is key because both agreed to attack the victim and as far as we know neither attacker said---STOP, what are we doing, lets not hurt her etc. There is some type bond between these 2.
Someone a few pages back suggested the 3 girl thing could be a part of this.
I'm a woman and have raised females. Two girls can be friends.... a 3rd girls throws a wrench into things. imho

bbm, That would be me, 1st Thread post #400.
 
I'm also thinking the age of the girls plays a huge role.Just turning 12 is the most awkward time in life,the age where you soon will be inevitable thrust into certain groups. Insecurities are rampant . IMO MG grew up where her creativity and individuality was encouraged and honestly I'm having a very hard time believing she was this budding sociopath or mentally ill.I see her in tender pictures with her cat so it really,really kills me to imagine what could have led to her doing something so horrific. PL seems like a girl who could easily become one of the popular crowd,she's pretty ,into pop culture IMO and AW seems the opposite.IMO she is definitely the one that would have been labeled "weird" in high school and maybe her resentment ,hatred and anger about this was already developing.S he introduced MG to Slenderman and MG was friends with PL for a long time.Maybe PL thought the whole Slenderman thing was ridiculous and was making fun of them about their obsession.Again in no way,shape or form am I trying to put part of the blame on the victim or am I trying to make excuses for the girls I'm just trying to speculate what could have went on in their heads to do something so horrific without even feeling remorse.
I agree with the above described observations about the 3 girls.
And in looking at the possible dynamics of how/what their relationship was as 3 "friends", and the relation of the 2 aggressive perpetrators and their one, chosen victim.. I believe there is likely SO VERY MUCH that's at play in how this horrific situation came to be, eventually followed through with, and played out between these three young girls.

(**Below I snipped/quoted the brief descriptors of each of the 3 girls, and IMO, I believe claudicici's observations are spot-on**)
--MG grew up where her creativity and individuality was encouraged.
<snip>

--PL seems like a girl who could easily become one of the popular crowd,she's pretty ,into pop culture, etc.
<snip>

--AW seems the opposite.IMO she is definitely the one that would have been labeled "weird" in high school and maybe her resentment ,hatred and anger about this was already developing.
<snip>
I, like many others have already mentioned, am anxious and hopeful that we will learn about what were the dynamics of this trio's relationship, background, and home life of the two perpetrators, and be able to come away with atleast a better understanding of what appears to be the key factors as to how this horrific crime came to be.

Just from the tiny of modicum of information that we have at this point my belief is that AW is the actual catalyst, or the main necessary ingredient for how this perfect storm that culminated in a very brutal, near successful, attempt at murdering their "friend", came to be(and again, this is based upon the small amount of info known at this time, and may very well change as more info comes to light).

IMO, MG seems to have been a smart, creative, and quite capable young girl..and even appeared to be somewhat a well-rounded young girl, friendly, likeable, etc.

AW, IMO, seems to be much the total opposite of all of those above described positive traits seen in MG. IMO, maybe even at some point the two would have been seen as a most unlikely pairing. I believe it not to be surprising that AW would be drawn to MG for the same reasons others would be(all of the above described positive traits), but IMO, what is more curious(and IMO, unknown at this time) is the reasons, traits, characteristics of AW that would have attracted MG, and drawn her to AW. This is just the type of missing/unknown-at-this-time info/details that I am talking about in my being very interested to learn as this case continues to unfold. With so many of the pieces still missing its difficult to speculate with any accuracy as to the why/what/how this all came to be.

But, I will say that IMO, I believe that this pair's dynamics will be textbook similar to what research/studies already show about "pairs/duos that murder"..in that each individual makes up the half needed, that when joined together completes the "whole" that serves as the motivator/perpetrator of the violent criminal act(in this case a violent, brutal, near successful, attempted murder).

As is typical each individual, alone, would not have the drive, and motivation to perpetrate such a violent, brutal act..but its when these two individuals(each half) are joined, that forms the complete "whole" that gives them, together, that drive and motivation necessary to carry out such a heinous act.

I believe it will likely be seen that it's some of those above described "positive" traits of MG's that were pertinent in this plot/plan/fantasy being made a reality. What was born of the two's creative imaginations, dark fantasies, etc was only possible due to MG's capability.(and it should be noted that even fellow peers of MG's describe her as just that, "capable"), which in most instances is a great, positive trait, but in this scenario, sadly became for evil use. JMO.

Anyhow, I've droned on enough for now:blushing:, but am very anxious to learn more as this case continues to unfold.
 
I agree.And in this case I don't have a hard time believing at all they did it for Slenderman,with or without trolls.It is a lot harder for me to imagine they did this out of hate or jealousy like in the Skylar case or because they just wanted to know what it feels like,like in the Elizabeth Olten case.12 year olds are still children and still have the ability to believe in a fantasy world.Unfortunately it took a tragic turn in this case IMO
Disagree. I have a daughter who only turned 13 2 months ago. She is an advanced reader. As much as I don't like it, she was well into the Young Adult reading section at Barnes & Noble over a year ago. Series like "The Hunger Games" and "Divergent" are just two of the series example I can think of offhand that she's into. Yes she is still a child, but she is fully capable of understanding that they are fantasy, not reality. A normal child who isn't developmentally handicapped can understand this. She stopped believing in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny at age 7.
 
But there's not a pile of websites out there trying to convince teenagers that Santa is a/ cool and b/real. I think the dynamic there is a vastly different thing, because there's a crowd involved, who do their best to make the fantasy seem "real" because that's the whole point of the "ARG" - alternate 'reality' game.

I don't think, personally, that this all had *nothing* to do with it. It was likely, IMO, a part of that 'perfect storm' of which the three's-a-crowd dynamic was the basis.

Some really good posts here, thanks for them! Lots of food for thought.
 
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