Identified! WI - Clinton, 'River Guy' WhtMale 1207UMWI, 17-20, 'Venom' TShirt, Nov'95 - Carl Junior Isaacs

I kinda saw a little Billy Ray Cyrus from back in the Achey Brakey Heart days.
 
I spoke with Det. Todd Christiansen about whether Kenneth Blais had ever been resolved against this case.

http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/4193dmon.html

He said that he had a request out with OPP for DNA, but they never got back with him on that.

He added that this UID's DNA profile has been sent to U of N. Texas, so it is (or will be) put into CODIS.
 
Let me say the odds are much against this possible, but his description reminded me so much of our poor Wisconsin metal guy that I'm going to post him here.

James Patrick Burrows
Missing since August 23, 1990 from Anniston, Calhoun County, Alabama
http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/b/burrows_james.html
http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/295dmal.html
https://www.findthemissing.org/cases/4778/
http://z13.invisionfree.com/PorchlightUSA/index.php?showtopic=143&st=0

Age: 24 years old
Height and Weight: 5' 11", 135 - 155 pounds
Distinguishing Characteristics: Caucasian male. Brown hair, green eyes. Burrows may have long hair and a full beard. His nickname is Pat.
Clothing/Jewelry Description: A black t-shirt and camouflage-print pants.

Pat Burrows is thought to have been killed in a drug turf ordered hit, but his body has never been located and those who testified in court about the hit order later recanted their testimony.
 
As a lifelong metalhead, I would say there is a good chance this guy could have just been wearing the Venom shirt because he thought it was cool that is said "Welcome to Hell." Had a lot of friends who wore shirts by metal bands who weren't as much into the band as they were the shirt.
 
As a lifelong metalhead, I would say there is a good chance this guy could have just been wearing the Venom shirt because he thought it was cool that is said "Welcome to Hell." Had a lot of friends who wore shirts by metal bands who weren't as much into the band as they were the shirt.

That is very very true. I too am a lifelong metalhead and remember wearing a "Nuclear Assault" T-shirt because it looked cool....well before I realized that Nuclear Assault was, in my opinion, awful.

Venom is credited with starting the "BLACK/DEATH" metal scene...again in my opinion...as a band they have their "moments" but really aren't very good. However their T-Shirts etc are very well done.
 
That is very very true. I too am a lifelong metalhead and remember wearing a "Nuclear Assault" T-shirt because it looked cool....well before I realized that Nuclear Assault was, in my opinion, awful.

Venom is credited with starting the "BLACK/DEATH" metal scene...again in my opinion...as a band they have their "moments" but really aren't very good. However their T-Shirts etc are very well done.

Venom/Nuclear Assault were awful. There are actually tons of very talented extreme metal bands out there today...more than I can keep up with...less silly satanic overtones and just more dark imagery, isolation, etc. NYC and Chicago have really active black metal scenes. Young, very talented musicians. Would make you wonder how you ever say through any of the junk that came out in the late 80's-early 90's.

Lot of kids that were into this music back then were loners or hung out with similar type outcasts. Today, completely different vibe. Almost a "hip" crowd depending on where the band or fans are from.
 
Venom/Nuclear Assault were awful. There are actually tons of very talented extreme metal bands out there today...more than I can keep up with...less silly satanic overtones and just more dark imagery, isolation, etc. NYC and Chicago have really active black metal scenes. Young, very talented musicians. Would make you wonder how you ever say through any of the junk that came out in the late 80's-early 90's.

Lot of kids that were into this music back then were loners or hung out with similar type outcasts. Today, completely different vibe. Almost a "hip" crowd depending on where the band or fans are from.

I brought this up in an earlier thread, but I swear the drawing of the unidentified man looks an awful lot like I guy I used to bump into on occasion in the Oak Creek/South Milwaukee Wisconsin area in the early 90's. But I never knew his name....

And you're right about the metal crowd then, we did stick with the like-minded...

I have a feeling this guy in particular was local...Janesville/Madison, WI area. I know, especially back then, that "metal guys" weren't well liked by the "older adults" in general and the smaller the community the worse you'd be treated. I got in a bar fight when I was 17 (don't ask) with a local redneck who didn't like my long hair. Anyways...it wouldn't surprise me at all if he was a throwaway kid or the "embarrassment" of small town in Wisconsin because of his looks; and when he disappeared no one gave it a second thought.
 
Was there ever any follow up about Kimball? I live about an hour or less from this, it has peaked my interest! I feel so sorry for all of these UID people. Isn't someone, somewhere missing these poor people? I give props to all of you who are so dedicated to helping finding these poor souls their homes. Ya'll are awesome! :rocker:
 
This MP, new to Charley Project, has some facial resemblance, especially the hair, mustache and chin:

http://charleyproject.org/cases/a/albert_fredrick.html
http://dojapp.doj.ca.gov/missing/detail.asp?FCN=1090004000472

At 32 in February 1993, he would have been 33 at the time the UID died, which is above the age estimate. His height is within an inch of the UID's and weight is reasonably close considering the remains were skeletal. The front teeth visible in his photo match with the UID's good teeth (of those still present after his death, the dental records suggest his teeth were in general good repair.)

He's from California but there's nothing to say he couldn't have traveled to Wisconsin and had the pendant made there.
 
CarlK90245, tatertot, Sleuthster, masnitram, and all:

First of all, I apologize for such a log post. But….

I’m new to this forum and plan on being a regular. I am a prospective private investigator studying for my license in Wisconsin. I’ll be focusing my work on missing and unidentified persons, and cold cases. Since I live in this UPs state, I hope I can be helpful in solving this mystery. To this end:

1) I contacted Lou Smit at the Rock County Coroner’s Office to get an update on the list of MPs submitted by NamUs and others to Rock County over the years, including those listed here. I am working on obtaining an all-inclusive, official “Ruled Out” list, which is based on forensic evidence (dental records and/or DNA), from Lou. Hopefully with this list we can take a new look at potential MPs on NamUs and elsewhere that hold the greatest promise for matching our UP, and not have to spend time going over “old ground”. Lou and I agreed he would be my sole contact there in Rock County for this case, and, hopefully, I can pass on news and information to you all through this forum.

2) I found out that Rock County has given a “name” to our UP—John “Clinton” Doe—which I think is appropriate and nice. So I’ll be referring to our unidentified person here in the future using his Rock County name, or “JCD”, his new initials.

3) I have been over-whelmed by ALL of the information and discussion there is out here in cyber space about John “Clinton” Doe, not to mention any official investigation information/notes that undoubtedly exists that I haven’t (yet) seen. [For instance, did you know that goat’s head pennant was made from a silver dinner fork? I didn’t until this morning!] Whether it is the great discussions, speculations, and work product here, or on Porchlight, Charley or elsewhere, there is, or what seems to be, a ton of information and ideas floating around about JCD and who he is. So, I’m thinking, maybe what is needed is an online, comprehensive (as in all in one place) Case File, above and beyond the sketchy data appearing NamUs and other groups. So, I’ve been playing around with an outline of all that might be included in such an online “Case File”, and I’m hoping you all will give me some feedback:

http://www.newlookinvestigations.com/documents/UP_CaseFileOrganization.pdf

So, thanks, and c u soon.

Jack

Jack Friess
Stevens Point, Wisconsin
 
One guy I'd look at, who doesn't seem to be in NamUs, is Sargent Micek. He was last heard from by his mother in 1989, but unaccountably police waited till 2004 to run his license and discovered a couple of DUIs from 1993. Height and hair color are in range (down to the feathered hairstyle in the reconstruction), age near the high side, but in range, drug and alcohol problems, previous suicide attempt, last known by mom to have been wearing black t-shirt, probable abandonment issues. Once you get outside of the upper midwest, you'd think that maybe the woman who heard him speak might have noticed what a Wisconsinite might regard as an accent.

I don't know whether Jack's got him on his rule-out list. Pictures in videos don't show him with headbanger regalia, either, but who knows? Anyway, I'm surprised that he doesn't seem to be in NamUs. Hoping Jack will post his rule-outs here.

At any rate, assuming it was Sargent himself that got busted for DUI in 1993, that argues that 4 years after he's severed contact with his mom he's got access to a car, which he apparently did not on that early morning when he called her in 1989, asking for a ride home from a bar in South Bend. If he'd have had a regular job, you'd expect they'd have run his SSN and gotten a hit for that, so it seems likely that he was driving someone else's car at that point. It may be that his friends were hiding him. In the video link, police say that they didn't appear completely forthcoming, but that they'd polygraphed one of them, who passed. If he got two DUIs, it would make sense that he'd have been a passenger after that. Apparently, John "Clinton" Doe's ride, whoever she was, got tired of having him as a passenger, perhaps because he was wasted, and ditched him. Notre Dame's in South Bend, but on October 14, 1994, the day before this guy was seen struggling up the creek, Purdue played at Camp Randall against the U of Wisconsin Badgers. I-90 would take you past Chicago and in a northwesterly direction towards Rockford, where it would head pretty much straight north to Madison, taking you right past this area, and, obviously, past it again on return. In a previous effort, I looked at bands that might have been in the area, but a football game might have attracted a couple of Hoosiers to be in the area.

If the license was valid, he'd have had to have obtained it after 1989 or renewed it, one would think. It would be good to know that, as well as where and when exactly he was busted, the make/model/year of the car(s) and to whom it/they were registered, particularly as there was a car pulled over near the bridge over the creek a couple hours before "Clinton" Doe was sighted struggling up the creek. As I recall, a cop helped a woman with car trouble there. The Doe link is the only one I've found that mentions the DUI busts, though. It would be nice to know how they got that info, too, and why Sargent's mom hasn't had him listed in NamUs. But if cops were questioning friends after October of 1994, who knew that he'd been ditched in Wisconsin, they might not have wanted to come forward, particularly if they were selling drugs and their buddy had been supporting himself that way. Lots of supposes, I know, but at this point there's not much else to go on.

As far as the crime from which Clinton Doe claimed to be a fugitive, it's certainly likely, as mentioned upstream, that that was a way of trying to scare people off, or he may just have been delusional. CarlK mentioned Borchardt, but that spouse-murder commission would have been on Easter, and already working itself through the legal system. There was the matter of Joe Clark, though, in Baraboo, if you're looking for a heinous crime that people would not yet have heard about. One of the oddities of Clark's kidnapping, torturing, and killing of young boys was that he continued to party with friends at his residence, even while holding his captives. Baraboo's only 40 miles north and a little west of Madison, and not far from 90/94 as it makes its way towards Minneapolis. Joe Clark told his last victim, the one who managed to survive and get him caught in summer 1995, that he had two previous victims, one whose body was discovered in the Wisconsin River on July 10, 1994, after he'd been abducted from his home on July 4, and another whose name Clark can't recall and whose remains, if Clark is telling the truth, haven't been discovered. I can't find any timeline info on when Clark's supposed to have snatched that one, and there's no indication that anyone else was involved, but imagining our Doe knew about it, didn't report it, and wanted to get away, that would be another angle to consider.
 
Great find, vermontaigne! Especially nice is that video—lots of details and, mostly, the names of important people in the investigation. We need the dental records, so I’ll be contacting Ret. Detective Al DeRoo soon to see if these might be in the case file and, if so, whether he can enter them, along with the case file information, into NamUs.

Status on the “Rule Out” list: slow going—bureaucracy, you know! But I continue to work on this as priority one. We really can’t do a lot until we get this list from Rock County (RC) and, above all, get a system going for submitting possible matches to them, that is, to Lou Smit, in the RC Coroner’s Office. [Correct me if I'm wrong, but by my count we now have 5 possible matches (Kimball, Albert, Blais, Baker, and Micek), and undoubtedly more soon, if this case heats up again and more cyber-sleuths do more mining!] The way I envision this working is: 1) we’ll discuss possible matches on this forum; 2) when one looks good, I’ll be sure dental records are available (in NamUs or direct contact with others “in the know”); 3) I'll submit the potential match to Lou.; 4) Lou will make a forensic evaluation (comparison of dental records and/or DNA) ; and 5) if not a match, we'll add the MP's name to the official “Rule Out List” for this case, which will be posted online with other case details with (at least) link(s) in this forum.

I welcome your feedback, on my “vision” mentioned here, and also my proposed case file outline (link again: http://www.newlookinvestigations.com/documents/UP_CaseFileOrganization.pdf).

Soon….

Jack
 
masnitram:

Wow. That you possibly knew our John "Clinton" Doe (JCD) back in the early 90's is big, BIG, especially if the person you remember is actually our UP! But we'll never know unless we get more information and start a search. It's like you are a witness, right? We might be able to track him down through pin-pointing the (community/town/city) in which he grew up and the crowd he ran with. Every school has yearbooks, right?!?

So, tell us more. Like when, exactly, (if you can remember) it was that you think you saw him? Where? Were there others that you remember that knew JCD too, or others he seemed to be hanging with. If you think you saw him more than once, describe each encounter (place, date, time, situation (band playing, etc.), and anything else that comes to mind.

I think we should start looking into your very plausible theory that John "Clinton" Doe grew up and lived as a teenager in southern Wisconsin, particularly the Madison/Janesville area. What do you think?
 
I'm still working on getting an official "Ruled Out List" from the Rock County Coroner's Office for our John “Clinton” Doe (JCD)--MPs that have been eliminated as possible matches in the past. I will be conferencing with Lou Smit this Friday afternoon (08/09/13) about the 4 (Merrills, Cannon, Meadows, J.Baker) that were listed in this forum previously as having been eliminated, and to work on a strategy to efficiently "process" at least 6 others (Kimball, Albert, Blais, W.Baker, Micek, Pate) that have been suggested in this forum as possible matches.

NOTE THIS: On Saturday, August 3rd, 2013, Todd Matthews of NamUs, etc. submitted to Rock County Chris Temple (NamUs MP #6715) for a match evaluation with JCD. A dental exclusion analysis was conducted by a NamUs forensic odontologist on Monday resulting in no match. The official results, along with JCD's dental x-rays, were posted in the secure area of JCD's NamUs case file.

Therefore, we so far have a list of one MP that has been officially eliminated as a match for JCD:
Chris Temple (NamUs MP #6715)

I'll keep you posted.

Jack
 
masnitram:

Wow. That you possibly knew our John "Clinton" Doe (JCD) back in the early 90's is big, BIG, especially if the person you remember is actually our UP! But we'll never know unless we get more information and start a search. It's like you are a witness, right? We might be able to track him down through pin-pointing the (community/town/city) in which he grew up and the crowd he ran with. Every school has yearbooks, right?!?

So, tell us more. Like when, exactly, (if you can remember) it was that you think you saw him? Where? Were there others that you remember that knew JCD too, or others he seemed to be hanging with. If you think you saw him more than once, describe each encounter (place, date, time, situation (band playing, etc.), and anything else that comes to mind.

I think we should start looking into your very plausible theory that John "Clinton" Doe grew up and lived as a teenager in southern Wisconsin, particularly the Madison/Janesville area. What do you think?

Hi Jack,

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. Great work on this case BTW.

This biggest issue I have with this John Doe is that he looked liked a lot of guys I hung around with in the early 90's. That is also on top of the others who I bumped into here and there but didn't know either by name, or very well at all. I grew up just outside of Racine, WI and the guy who most looks like the drawing of this Doe is a guy I used to bump into randomly. I remember talking to the guy who most looks like the doe in Oak Creek on the Lake Michigan shoreline. The power plant that is there expanded several years ago and the beach is now accessible to the public, back in the early 90's you basically had to weave your way down a cliff to get there. It was a great place to party and escape the police if needed because there was only one way down and we could see 'em coming. Anyways, I ran into him a few times there and once at Great America in Gurnee, Illinois where we chatted a bit in line waiting to get on rides. He was with his group and I was with mine...sadly it was very casual and other then typical "burnout" speak we didn't exchange names. The Great America trip was in 1992, and I know that because my girlfriend at the time had a license and I was only 15. We only dated THAT summer.

There is another guy that was a friend of a friend whom no one really seems to know what ever happened to, from that same time frame. His first name was "Don", and I've been meaning to find out a last name to do some digging. "Don" is another guy that fits the profile of this UID and definitely has ties to Wisconsin. I'll see what I can find out about him. From what I do know about "Don", he didn't come from a great home...and in fact may not of had an "official residence"...kind of a drifter.

The Oak Creek/Great America guy....I wish I could recall more info, but it is honestly a long shot in the grand scheme of things. Again, at that time he and the UID fit the typical Midwestern/Wisconsin "burnout"...and there were lots of us.
 
Vermontaigne:

Great discussion here. I re-read it several times and then came back to it this morning. You raise very good points and possible theories. A couple of reactions:

1) It has been pretty well established and accepted that the man seen running in the creek in October, 1994 is the same person, John “Clinton” Doe, whose remains were found on the river bank a year later on November 26, 1995. The clothing found on/around the deceased are identical to the descriptions presented by the (at least) three witnesses that saw him that afternoon. That means there’s about 99% probability that JCD’s time of death is shortly after, and maybe the same night, that he was seen running in the creek—October 16, 1994 or the early morning of October 17, 1994.
2) Also, there is no evidence that was found by the coroner and forensic investigators on JDC’s remains that would indicate this wasn’t anything other than a “natural” death. So this, along with 1) above, would rule out that JCD was killed and dumped on the river bank, which was Joe Clark’s MO. Although officially ruled as a drowning, most likely the actually cause of death (COD) was hypothermia, which was mentioned previously in this thread, or less likely, drug overdose.
3) I say “less likely, drug overdose” because the results of a basic toxicology test done on hair samples taken from JCD’s body were negative for cocaine, codeine and morphine (GazettExtra article). Not conclusive, for sure, but it is reasonable to assume, given the hypothermia COD theory, that JCD was either high on alcohol or was having some kind of psychotic event when running in the creek. It would be my assessment that we aren’t looking for someone too heavy into drugs, but rather, alcohol, or perhaps just with mental illness issues.

These are the things you mentioned that I like:

1) What, if any, connection is there between JCD and the woman whose car was broken down that afternoon? That can’t be a coincidence. Remember, JCD’s body wasn’t found for a year later, so the officers who responded at that time to that distressed vehicle, weren’t thinking in terms of a connection to a missing or dead person nearby.
2) That JCD may have had a driver’s license. Even if Micek is eliminated, this is still something that should be looked into.
3) That JCD “may just have been delusional”. This may very well explain his behavior and utterances when running in the creek. We have several MPs with mental health issues. Let’s see if there is a match with one of these.
4) Your suggestion that JCD may have had an “accent” if he was from outside of Wisconsin. This might be something worth pursuing at some point.

Thanks for all your information and thoughts.

Signing off for now. I’ll be back after my chat with Mr. Smit.

Jack
 
Re: http://www.newlookinvestigations.com/cases/UPs/4757/RCCO_MP_Elimination_Chart.pdf#zoom=80

If you didn't get my previous post about a "Ruled Out List" for our JCD, it now appears in the "Exclusions" section at the bottom of the "Case Information" page of his NamUs case file. Thus, this objective to get a "Ruled Out List" established has been accomplished! Now I just have to make sure suggested MPs that are excluded are immediately added to this public list. So now, if we are hunting the MP databases for possible matches and we get a "hit", we can first check to see if that MP has been eliminated.

This is a chart (link above) I put together for my nice, hour-long phone conversation with Rock County Deputy Coroner Lou Smit yesterday afternon. We discussed the status, actually just the sheer number, of the MPs listed on this chart. I think Lou is over-whelmed--I know I am! Since, like you all, I’m "just a volunteer", I don't have access (yet!) to the secure LE area of NamUs, so much of our discussion was Lou telling me about, and reading information from, the secure area of JCD's case file. We spent a good deal of time on the section of potential matches, which had 2—the last 2 listed in the “Missing Persons Suggested as Possible Matches” section of my chart.

Another interesting experience I had yesterday morning was a call I made to The Doe Network to find out if they had a record of the submissions they had made to Rock County back in May, 2009 (as reported in the GazetteExtra article). I'm trying to find out if the 4 MPs that were reported in this forum in 2010 as having been excluded via dentals are some or all of the same MPs they sent to RC. I was thinking I would be getting a volunteer or secretary, but it was Todd Matthews himself! We had a very nice conversation and he said he'd send Lou the list of those MPs referred to RC back in 2009.

Apparently there were another 4 MPs that had been eliminated via DNA exclusion analysis a while back, but never got posted to JCD's NamUs "Exclusions" listing. They were moved/placed there mysteriously yesterday, along with the dental exclusion analysis of Chris Temple that had been conducted on Monday or Tuesday of this week. I'm thinking maybe Todd started poking around in JCD's case file and cleaned things up a bit??

Anyway, Lou and I agreed first priority is to see if all (7 out of 12) of the MPs on our chart that are NOT listed in NamUs are still open cases. And if so, I’ll see if the LE personnel in charge of the cases might be willing to enter their information, along with dentals, into NamUs. I'll be working on that, starting at the top of the list, beginning Monday.

Whew, a lot here, I know. Sorry. Still I think we're making progress to hopefully make our work, that of locating possible MP matches, a bit easier and/or more efficient. Hope you agree.

Jack
 

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