GUILTY WI - Kara Neumann, 11, dies as parents rely on faith healing, Weston, 23 March 2008

[joe jones]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,341574,00.html

I think this is neglect, she suffered before she died,

 

[ljwf22]

Now this is really the saddest part:
"The mother believes the girl could still be resurrected, the police chief said."

 

[ttrachel04]

I'm sorry but to allow your child to die a slow agonizing death over a month is sickening. To continue to deny her medical treatment when it became obvious prayer wasn't working and, their childs life was in danger is the same as murdering her. How can you justify leaving the other kids in the home when the parents so called faith makes them unfit to provide for the their childrens welfare??

i COMPLETELY agree.

man when i was in sunday school we were taught to ALWAYS ALWAYS receive medical treatment. that was the teaching's of an orthodox synagogue! (for example, even if it ws shabbat, to always use a car if there is a medical emergency to get to a hospital, etc.) we were always taught that HEALTH IS NUMBER ONE !!!

 

[CyberLaw]

One thing that must be clarified. I for one take the family to the Doctor's for medical attention. No question about it.

But a person who places God above the knowledge of the medical field, is "following" the bible and placing faith in "their religion" and God to heal a sick person. They feel it will work, that if they turn their "backs" on their faith, then of course the resulting consequences will entail when they pass away.

When the child dies, it is the parents who feel responsible because they did not pray hard enough. Remember, sickness is tied to "what God wants' what God decided, etc. So to pray to God for healing is turning to the "belief" that God is the utlimate healer.

The defense they could use: The spirtual healing defense...........

The parents could say: We knew she was sick and we prayed to God to heal her. That is our "faith". We had no idea that she would die.

But......in some states, the spirtual healing defense is not defense to "manslaugher".

So I guess it depends on the state, DA and the laws of the state.

 

[southcitymom]

IMHO prayer is for when nothing else works, simple insulin shots would have saved this girl. Like someone else said God has given us brains for the purpose of self-maintenance, among other things.

Plenty of people, myself included, believe that prayer is not a last ditch, nothing else has helped practice. The vast majority of folks who use prayer in their life use it when everything is working just fine as well as when everything is not.

 

[Elphaba]

At one point, in the early 70's, the feds wanted every state to carry a religious exempt clause when it came to laws about child abuse and neglect. There have been quite a few court changes since then, but still, to this very day, quite a few states protect parents or guardians from being held responsible if they are using their religious beliefs, instead of seeking medical attention.

I would be very surprised if this case finds the parents serving time. Sure, they could be arrested, but once in the court room, the parents have a lot of ammo to back them up on using their given rights to practice their religion and using it over medical attention. They can argue the 1st amendment right to practice their religion, and if they are in a state that has a religious exempt clause attached to their child abuse/neglect laws, the parents will end up in the clear.

Being a non-believer, I would get into trouble if I expressed my outright opinion on this case. That poor child didn't deserve to suffer like that...

 

[southcitymom]

Now this is really the saddest part:
"The mother believes the girl could still be resurrected, the police chief said."

These people were obviously very devout. Many believe that Christ raised the dead and so it is not so strange (to me at least, based on what I have read about this family) that she would believe this could happen for her daughter as well. The nature of faith is that we accept and believe in things unseen and unproven. Every single religious person in the world does this on some level. I am not willing to say this family's level of faith is wrong.

Of course, the Mother could also be talking about a spiritual resurrection, which many believe in.

 

[scarpetta]

Cyberlaw, yes, the spiritual healing defense could be used, but the parents will first need to get their theology straight.

ljwf22 indicated that this woman believes that God may still resurrect her daughter.

If you were to ask this woman which God she believes in she would probably say that she believes in the God of the Holy Bible.

And if you were to ask her if her God ever changes his mind once he decides something, she would probably say that when her God decides something, that decision is just as non-negotiable as her faith that she believes she exercised in praying for her daughter's healing.

So she prayed. Her Daughter died. God decided.

Now she is saying that God just might change His mind and bring her back.

Cause of death? RANDOM GUESSING

There is no defense for that.

 

[southcitymom]

This is a tough one and I don't know where I stand. I agree with scm. But then again, these parents are supposed to protect their child. It would have been different if it had been an adult who made her own decision not to seek medical treatment for herself. I wonder if the child wanted medical treatment or if she too believed in the power of prayer?

It's a sad situation nonetheless.

It is a sad situation, but I believe these parents felt like they were protecting their child with the very best protection they could offer. I would guess, but obviously do not know, that having been raised in this environment, the child also believed in the power of prayer.

 

[southcitymom]

When their car gets low on fuel, they pull up to the pump so that they are not stranded. When they are running low on food they head to the grocery store so they do not starve. They buy toilet paper to avoid ridiculous alternatives, replace blades on their lawnmowers, put money in parking meters to avoid tickets, repaint their houses to prevent the wood from rotting, and take their dogs to the vet to be spayed or neutered.

But when it comes to the life of their child….THAT they can only pray about.

That’s not pure faith, it is selective stupidity.

We actually don't know that they do any of those things. We don't know the full scope of their beliefs. Random guessing is interesting enough, but I don't think we should state these things as fact.

 

[imthemom]

Plenty of people, myself included, believe that prayer is not a last ditch, nothing else has helped practice. The vast majority of folks who use prayer in their life use it when everything is working just fine as well as when everything is not.

Yes prayer in my family is an everyday thing for the good and the bad. I do think this was neglectful though. Ketoacidosis is very painful, it is constant vomiting and nausea. She would have felt horrible. I think God gave us people with knowledge to help us like a previous poster stated and these people did not take advantage of that. I wonder if one of their children gets appendicits if they would just pray instead of surgery, the result would be certain death. There are miracles preformed through doctors every day. For example my husband is fighting in immigration court to stay with us right now. We pray about it daily and have many others praying for us but we have still hired the best lawyers. It would be silly of us to think that we could just walk into court without knowledge of the law and get the end result we want. Same thing with medicine.

 

[scarpetta]

Of course, the Mother could also be talking about a spiritual resurrection, which many believe in.

SCM, if this mom believes in the same spiritual resurrection that is in the Bible, isn't that the same resurrection that everyone is going to experience according to the Bible? If she is saying that God might resurrect her daughter, doesn't she believe that it is already an inevitable fact?

I am not saying that people should not exercise their faith regardless of the cost. I am saying that the actions of these parents concerning their child do not seem to be based on a consistent enough faith to allow for her death.

 

[CyberLaw]

WE had a similar case in Ontario. You know the "saying" spare the rod, spoil the child.

Well these "very religious" parents did just that, they hit the children with "rod" like objects that caused pain and bruising of the children.

Well Children's Aid stepped in, the parents were outraged, I mean outraged. They felt that they were "following" the bible and it was "written in the bible that what they were doing was correct".

They saw nothing and I mean nothing wrong with what they were doing and the "authorities" were discriminating against them on the basis of religious faith and "teachings of the bible".

The children were removed from the home kicking and screaming. They were only returned when the parents assured the "authorities" that they would not use objects to "discipline" the children.

The whole family "soon moved" to a remote area, in a religious area, away from authorities, far removed from prying eyes..........

What they saw as "discipline", society sees as abuse.......what they follow as "the teaching of the bible" was the only "law" that they would abide by.

Some religious parents are more concerned with prayer healing and the "soul" the child. If they turned their back on God and sought medical treatment, they would be putting the "soul" of their child at risk because they "lost" their faith in God to heal their child.

I for one, put medical advances and doctors over and above "faith" healing.

 

[southcitymom]

...... I think God gave us people with knowledge to help us like a previous poster stated and these people did not take advantage of that....

I believe this as well. But some people do not and I respect this.

To me, it's all interpretive. For example, the Catholic church believes that any birth control other than the rhythm method is a blatant interference in God's plan. Yet the Catholic Church does not extend this teaching of interference with God's plan to surgery or other medical care. Why? Interpretation. Their interpretation doesn't make sense to me, but it is their right to have it and teach it.

These people have just as much right to interpret God's word as the Catholic church does - whether or not that interpretation makes sense to me doesn't matter.

 

[southcitymom]

SCM, if this mom believes in the same spiritual resurrection that is in the Bible, isn't that the same resurrection that everyone is going to experience according to the Bible? If she is saying that God might resurrect her daughter, doesn't she believe that it is already an inevitable fact?

I am not saying that people should not exercise their faith regardless of the cost. I am saying that the actions of these parents concerning their child do not seem to be based on a consistent enough faith to allow for her death.

I don't know if she meant spiritual or physical resurrection - I really don't. The fact that it's included in the article as a point of interest makes me think she meant physical, but I wasn't their and don't know how to interpret what a grieving mother might have said to authorities.

 

[southcitymom]

WE had a similar case in Ontario. You know the "saying" spare the rod, spoil the child.

Well these "very religious" parents did just that, they hit the children with "rod" like objects that caused pain and bruising of the children.

Well Children's Aid stepped in, the parents were outraged, I mean outraged. They felt that they were "following" the bible and it was "written in the bible that what they were doing was correct".

They saw nothing and I mean nothing wrong with what they were doing and the "authorities" were discriminating against them on the basis of religious faith and "teachings of the bible".

The children were removed from the home kicking and screaming. They were only returned when the parents assured the "authorities" that they would not use objects to "discipline" the children.

The whole family "soon moved" to a remote area, in a religious area, away from authorities, far removed from prying eyes..........

What they saw as "discipline", society sees as abuse.......what they follow as "the teaching of the bible" was the only "law" that they would abide by.

This is a good example of interpretation. Lots of people do not interpret "Spare the rod, spoil the child" to be a biblical instruction to beat your child or suffer the child being spoiled, but some do. I am glad we have laws in place for abuse of children because I am one of those who does not interpret that passage as a call for beatings.

 

[bigbuck]

But what about the childs rights?? I see many here defending the parents rights to believe and practice their faith but, what about their daughters right to life? If her parents want to live without medicine fine but, the children should be cared for untill they are old enough to decide for themselves.

 

[Eire]

This is just my opinion and I know others will disagree. Children can't decide which faith they are, parents decide that for them. To me, if the practice of your religion denies your children basic care, you are neglectful. The child didn't choose this set of beliefs, her parents did. Had this been an adult, I'd say it was their choice and they had the right to not seek medical care.

Let me put it this way. I'm a parent too. If I knowingly deny my children medical care and they die, I'm guilty of neglect. If I throw religion in to the mix, I'm devout? No, sorry. It's still neglect albeit it on a different level. They intended to turn to God over modern medicine and their child is dead as a result.

While we may not know that these people fill up their cars with gas, neuter and spay their pets and so on, Scarpetta still has a good point. They most likely don't rely on prayer when the washing machine breaks down or the screen door falls off, they fix it.

 

[scarpetta]

If no one should be penalized for their own individual interpretation of who God is and what he is asking them to do, then God just told me that I am entitled to all of the belongings in your house, and my faith tells me that you are going to agree wholeheartedly and not have me arrested when I back the U-Haul up to your door. This is not theft, this is faith. This child died from that same brand of faith.

 

[southcitymom]

But what about the childs rights?? I see many here defending the parents rights to believe and practice their faith but, what about their daughters right to live?

I didn't know that children had/have a right to medical care in this country. It seems if this were a right, all our children would be covered.